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Flight delays... Watch

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    Please don't move this to the snow thread.

    I'm surprised at all those people on the news sitting around at the airports in London or wherever when they could all be sitting in nice warm 4* hotels provided by their airlines, like I am right now.

    And what is it with the airports all grinding to a halt whenever there is a bit of snow? I suspect the reason that they might not want to get the equipment is they'd have to acknowledge that it was something more than a one off winter event (that was last year's excuse, don't you know) and that would fly - if you'll pardon the pun - in the face of the "global warming" agenda that everyone in authority seems to have these days.

    I've just checked arrivals and departures for Ivalo airport. -20C temperatures, more snow than you can shake a stick at and everything is operating normally.

    As it does 365 days a year.
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    im supposed to be flying out on tuesday morning and heathrow is currently closed with only a small amount of flights. What du reckon the chance of the flight being cancelled?!
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    I offered an American a place to say. I'm liek. totally rad. (no ulterior motives!112)
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    The spiky aeroplane tires needed for snow are too dangerous to import, and as our manufacturing industry is awful, we can't make any of our own.

    A picture showing how big they'd have to be, next to a real size gorilla and rhino:
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    Despite your best accusations, this type of weather is rare. A week or three per year does not justify the massive outlay on equipment that would be needed.

    It has nothing to do with some conspiracy theory to disprove global warming - such accusations are peddled only by those with no understanding of weather and only their own hysteria to promote.

    Clearing snow and ice is, at the best of times, a tricky challenge, and in major airports even moreso. This week Geneva Airport has been closed due to the weather, we've seen places across NA that regularly receive heavy snow encounter problems.


    For the record, if this airport out in the sticks in Finland ever had even a 10th of the flights - including the extremes of size and weight of the aircraft - that Heathrow gets then it too would suffer.
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    Ugh, Travel. This isn't just about travel. The dead forum, thanks very much.
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    (Original post by Drewski)
    Despite your best accusations, this type of weather is rare. A week or three per year does not justify the massive outlay on equipment that would be needed.

    It has nothing to do with some conspiracy theory to disprove global warming - such accusations are peddled only by those with no understanding of weather and only their own hysteria to promote.

    Clearing snow and ice is, at the best of times, a tricky challenge, and in major airports even moreso. This week Geneva Airport has been closed due to the weather, we've seen places across NA that regularly receive heavy snow encounter problems.

    For the record, if this airport out in the sticks in Finland ever had even a 10th of the flights - including the extremes of size and weight of the aircraft - that Heathrow gets then it too would suffer.
    Well, yes, it is relatively rare, but not the once in a lifetime event that they keep claiming. Even if it is only a once yearly event, it is still justifiable to have equipment necessary to deal with the situation, if only at big airports such as Heathrow and the like, where the knock on effects can be massive. I'm not even flying from within 300 miles of the place, yet all the other airports having to take the diverted arrival flights means nationwide delays and cancellations.

    Even many airports that aren't snowed in most of the year round do have at least some snow clearing equipment to hand. Airports of comparable size and latitude to Heathrow are at least able to make some effort. Geneva may have been closed, but at least they have snow clearing equipment to mitigate the delays, and will be able to reopen faster than Heathrow would be in the same situation.

    The whole global warming fallacy is a different story altogether, but suffice to say that even without weather events such as these, there's no hiding the fact that temperatures have been lower than normal in recent years. Look at the BBC's forecast of a mild winter just before December (and Copenhagen) and now we have this year's "warmest ever" based on fabricated data. But we are constantly told that cold and snow is "weather, not climate". Of course, when we do get a "barbecue summer" (when was the last one of those?), it is held up as an example of MMGW, and not just a bit of warm weather.

    And airports in the UK of comparable size and traffic to Ivalo would be just as messed up as Heathrow is right now if they had the same snow that Heathrow has.
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    Yeah, expected as much - I'd appreciate if a mod could put this back in GD where I intended it as it's getting absolutely zero traffic here.

    (Original post by Drewski)
    Clearing snow and ice is, at the best of times, a tricky challenge, and in major airports even moreso. This week Geneva Airport has been closed due to the weather, we've seen places across NA that regularly receive heavy snow encounter problems.
    Oh, and by the way, how's Heathrow doing compared to Geneva?
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    Geneva - annual traffic [total number of flights]: ~150,000
    Heathrow - annual traffic [as above]: ~490,000

    Considering Heathrow is more than twice as busy, handles about 4x the passenger numbers, deals with considerably bigger aircraft [ie, ac that have more than double the gross bulk] than Geneva ever handles and handles considerably more cargo traffic - which is worth far more to the airport operators than passenger flights - their reaction and reopening efforts have been good.

    So, how's Heathrow doing? Well, it's currently coping with:
    - more people,
    - more flights coming in,
    - more flights going out,
    - more cargo coming in and
    - more cargo going out.
    And it's doing all that despite not being open at 100% of it's capacity.

    I'd call that quite good, myself.

    I'm sorry that BAA can't give you the moon on the a stick that you seem to think you deserve.
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    Oh, and it's getting no traffic as it's a painfully boring subject that nobody cares about and nobody wants to debate with a tool.
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    (Original post by drewski)
    ...
    Only people remotely interested in aviation and who fancied a good chortle eh Drew? :top:
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    Heathrow operates at a fraction under 100% capacity. To clearance of snow from a runway requires it to be closed. How do you intend to stop delays and cancellations if you have to close a runway that's in constant use for 18 hours a day?
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    (Original post by Drewski)
    Geneva - annual traffic [total number of flights]: ~150,000
    Heathrow - annual traffic [as above]: ~490,000

    Considering Heathrow is more than twice as busy, handles about 4x the passenger numbers, deals with considerably bigger aircraft [ie, ac that have more than double the gross bulk] than Geneva ever handles and handles considerably more cargo traffic - which is worth far more to the airport operators than passenger flights - their reaction and reopening efforts have been good.

    So, how's Heathrow doing? Well, it's currently coping with:
    - more people,
    - more flights coming in,
    - more flights going out,
    - more cargo coming in and
    - more cargo going out.
    And it's doing all that despite not being open at 100% of it's capacity.

    I'd call that quite good, myself.

    I'm sorry that BAA can't give you the moon on the a stick that you seem to think you deserve.
    Geneva was closed a matter of hours because they had equipment to clear the snow. Heathrow's been stuck for days.

    But never mind the money they could have saved had the place been able to be cleared in the same time as they cleared Geneva.

    Nobody else is saying that Heathrow has been "quite good" - should watch the news from another country - it's all they are going on about. I daresay the UK news is the same. Even to the effect that the CEO is giving up his bonus.

    And yes, this forum is dead compared to almost all of the others.
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    oh look Stansted is open and running and is of a similar size to Geneva. What pattern is forming here? :O
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    (Original post by marcusfox)
    Nobody else is saying that Heathrow has been "quite good" - should watch the news from another country - it's all they are going on about. I daresay the UK news is the same. Even to the effect that the CEO is giving up his bonus.
    -Anybody lapping up the news as it's written is braindead and not worthy of recognition.
    -All news outlets reporting it in such sensationalist terms are simply following rule one of journalism: sell the news.

    If you think everything is really as bad as the news is reporting, that no exaggerations are being taken, that the worst stories aren't being deliberately picked on, that the news is in no way making more of this story because it's Christmas and sod all else is happening, then I wonder really who is the slow one who can't grasp the facts?

    And again, if you can't understand the point I'm making re: Heathrow and Geneva than you shouldn't be having this debate in the first place.
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    (Original post by Drewski)
    -Anybody lapping up the news as it's written is braindead and not worthy of recognition.
    -All news outlets reporting it in such sensationalist terms are simply following rule one of journalism: sell the news.

    If you think everything is really as bad as the news is reporting, that no exaggerations are being taken, that the worst stories aren't being deliberately picked on, that the news is in no way making more of this story because it's Christmas and sod all else is happening, then I wonder really who is the slow one who can't grasp the facts?

    And again, if you can't understand the point I'm making re: Heathrow and Geneva than you shouldn't be having this debate in the first place.
    Ah, well there's my problem then, I'm not actually at Heathrow, so I can't actually check for myself. Perhaps you can enlighten me, since of course you are? Nevermind then, I'm sure everything's running fine and thise poor people sleeping on the floor on BBC, ITV, CNN and MSNBC are just media stooges.

    Saturday SYNOPs from Ogimet.....
    1100 2cm
    1200 7cm
    1300 9cm
    1400 9cm
    1500 8cm

    About matches what I heard on the news. However, BBC News Channel Simon Calder has just said that he was told by BAA that 20 cm fell at Heathrow. I suppose it's that extra invisible 10 cm that's difficult to clear.

    I suppose the CEO himself was exaggerating how bad things really too.

    You were the one who brought up Geneva a while back to counter the fact that other airports are having problems. Well, surprised both of us there that they were able to sort all those problems out so quickly, but not at Heathrow.

    Mind you - they can forget about this - http://tinyurl.com/2flxhl7

    If you want, you can find another airport of comparable traffic to Heathrow with the same problems...
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    (Original post by marcusfox)
    If you want, you can find another airport of comparable traffic to Heathrow with the same problems...
    Heathrow's capacity problem is what's causing so much disruption; there are few airports worldwide with a similar level of traffic with a capacity problem similar to Heathrow's.
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    I guarantee you that if Dallas-Fort Worth were to get 20cm of snow in one day it would also cease to operate in it's entirety.
    Or, let's say if LAX were to get any snow at all, it too would stop operations. How about Hong Kong or Sydney? Yep, they'd shut too.

    Saying 'any other airport' is vague, mostly because 99% of them don't carry anything like the numbers that Heathrow does and of the 1% that remain, very few are in the same climate, where the current weather is the worst in 40yrs.


    I'm not sure you comprehend how big an operation it is to -safely and thoroughly - clear an airport, especially one the size of Heathrow. Those airports that have spent, literally, millions of pounds/dollars on it manage to maintain operations because it's common, all staff know it's common, everyone's trained up on it and expects it [note that last word there, 'expects'] and the airport has been designed with it in mind.

    Heathrow has none of the above benefits. Of course their own publicity department will try to make things sound good, or do I assume you've never heard of PR? But when weather patterns hit harder than they'd ever expect - and harder than forecast - who says they should be able to anticipate it perfectly and fix it in moments?


    The only thing to consider [especially in this litigation-happy environment]:

    What's the worse news, that hundreds of thousands have been delayed, or that just one plane skidded off the runway and crashed?

    For me, it's the latter by far, I'd prefer people not to die so I'd leave the place shut until you can guarantee it's fine. If you'd prefer just not to be late, then fair enough....
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    I read recently that 'every inch of snow on the airfield is equivalent to about 15,000 tonnes of snow to be removed', at Dublin Airport, which has only one runway, where Heathrow has two.
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    (Original post by marcusfox)
    Please don't move this to the snow thread.

    I'm surprised at all those people on the news sitting around at the airports in London or wherever when they could all be sitting in nice warm 4* hotels provided by their airlines, like I am right now.

    And what is it with the airports all grinding to a halt whenever there is a bit of snow? I suspect the reason that they might not want to get the equipment is they'd have to acknowledge that it was something more than a one off winter event (that was last year's excuse, don't you know) and that would fly - if you'll pardon the pun - in the face of the "global warming" agenda that everyone in authority seems to have these days.

    I've just checked arrivals and departures for Ivalo airport. -20C temperatures, more snow than you can shake a stick at and everything is operating normally.

    As it does 365 days a year.
    They're all full to capacity, mate.
 
 
 
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