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Your misbeliefs about Western civilisation?... Watch

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    Which aspect/s of modern civilisation (its values, slogans, systems, long term stances etc) do you reject, whether its because you feel it is deception or lies or for any other reason.

    I'll give you some examples:

    Modern civilisation does not really believe in democracy, it has no problem preventing it from developing nor does it have any problem with close relationships with undemocratic states.

    Most foreign aid and loans are a sham. It does nothing but give certain western countries political influence, leads to high debt and gives western corporations the opportunity to make even more money, while the countries almost always never improve.

    This civilisations superiority is regularly preached however it contains the highest crime rates, the highest murder rates, the widest range of diseases, the worst family structure and you could go on.

    It is unsustainable, you can only go so far. This is a society that gets more and more decadent and it consumes more and more. That cannot go on without expecting disaster. Worse still, most people do not care that their children will live in such a society.

    Lastly, if you accept the above and more, then what effect does it have on your viewpoint. Do you still champion this civilisation along with its slogans or not. Do you speak about the above or do you keep it to yourself for fear of "dampening the mood".
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    Which is it you are referring to? Western civilisation or modern civilisation? You use both.

    Oh, and Western civilisation may have its flaws (it will be a long time before the perfect civilisation exists - if ever) but it's by far preferable to the barbaric and primitive civilisations that also exist on this planet.
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      Sauces? reasons? explanations?

      You know what? Anything that isnt blind assertion would be good.

      Edit: Oh hold on, you are the "What's wrong with the taliban?" guy. Shouldn't you have plans for xmas...
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      (Original post by Margaret Thatcher)
      Which is it you are referring to? Western civilisation or modern civilisation? You use both.

      Oh, and Western civilisation may have its flaws (it will be a long time before the perfect civilisation exists - if ever) but it's by far preferable to the barbaric and primitive civilisations that also exist on this planet.
      Hi.

      How does dominant civilisation sound to you? Better?

      Please stick to the topic, in other words contribute. You said it has its flaws, could you elaborate?
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      (Original post by roots)
      Please stick to the topic, in other words contribute. You said it has its flaws, could you elaborate?
      No, I won't stick to a Western civilisation bash-fest to fuel your sense of satisfaction and to make other, barbaric civilisations look morally superior when they are far from it. Regardless of any flaws you can spout, the plain fact remains that, although not perfect, Western civilisation is far more preferable to a large proportion of the other civilisations that exist on this planet.
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      Meh.

      I'm relatively pleased with how things are. My only gripe is that we always pay lip service to the values we speak of; war is wrong, human rights are important etc. But rarely have these values ever meant anything when it really comes down to it.



      (Original post by Margaret Thatcher)
      No, I won't stick to a Western civilisation bash-fest to fuel your sense of satisfaction
      To be fair, you did use a straw-man argument. He did not state that 'barbarian societies are better', he stated that there are flaws with our notion of Western Civilisation, which (given decent reasoning) is a fair claim as far as I'm concerned.
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      I don't agree with a lot of aspects, can't be bothered to list them though so just going to tackle some of your points.

      (Original post by roots)
      I'll give you some examples:

      Modern civilisation does not really believe in democracy, it has no problem preventing it from developing nor does it have any problem with close relationships with undemocratic states.
      And this is makes them undemocratic how?

      This civilisations superiority is regularly preached however it contains the highest crime rates, the highest murder rates, the widest range of diseases, the worst family structure and you could go on.
      Where is your source for the diseases part? And it's been explained why crime rate is high and family structure is broken. Anyway, maybe if you listed a society which you believe to be superior to western civilisation you can show why it's wrong to preach the superiority of this one.

      (Original post by Margaret Thatcher)
      Which is it you are referring to? Western civilisation or modern civilisation? You use both.
      Western civilisation set/sets the foundations of modern civilisation.
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      (Original post by morecambebay)
      Sauces? reasons? explanations?

      You know what? Anything that isnt blind assertion would be good.

      Edit: Oh hold on, you are the "What's wrong with the taliban?" guy. Shouldn't you have plans for xmas...
      Mustard with my explanation please :D
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      (Original post by jumpingjesusholycow)
      To be fair, you did use a straw-man argument. He did not state that 'barbarian societies are better', he stated that there are flaws with our notion of Western Civilisation, which (given decent reasoning) is a fair claim as far as I'm concerned.
      Not at all, I am pointing out what I perceive to be his clear intentions in creating this thread. I am fully entitled to do that, and anyone who has seen his previous posts would also recognise that.
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      I enjoy living in a society where I am safe, where I live under the fair rule of law which is equally upheld to every citizen from our rulers to the poorest, and where I can vote to democratically elect those who govern me based on my principles.

      You can't just state that 'western society' is bad without giving us something to compare it to. What kind of society would you prefer?
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        The point about diseases doesn't make any sense. Diseases aren't quantifiable in that way: they can't be placed upon a scale and then used to calculate a range. Instead, if we look at a more easily quantifiable measure - life expectancy - then Western civilization is doing pretty well. Western countries dominate the top of lists of life expectancy and, more importantly, what has led to the global doubling in life expectancy in the past 150 years was the scientific advancements which were made in Western countries.

        It is easy for myopic individuals to be pessimistic about the state of health today - to moan about its problems. But if we step back and look at where we've come from - a state of life where the average life expectancy was in the 30s, where a great number of children died when they were born, where a great number of mothers died when giving birth, where what can be treated today by a simple course of antibiotics often led to death - then there is much to applaud in the work of exceptional scientists (and also in the work of individuals who brought the findings to the public).

        Like usual, a balanced perspective is the solution. Some Western countries should look at how other countries have avoided the social problems that exist in Western society. Why is there a high fear of crime, and why do expensive foreign policies bring such poor results? And other countries should look at how Western countries have succeeded intellectually. Why are most of the equations a uni physics student will study named after scientists from Europe or America, rather than elsewhere? (Then again, while we should look for solutions, perhaps there is a trade-off...)

        (Original post by jumpingjesusholycow)
        he stated that there are flaws with our notion of Western Civilisation, which (given decent reasoning) is a fair claim as far as I'm concerned.
        It's a fair claim because it's a bloody obvious one. I suspect you'll have trouble finding someone on the street who actually believes we live in a utopia...
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        (Original post by roots)
        Which aspect/s of modern civilisation (its values, slogans, systems, long term stances etc) do you reject, whether its because you feel it is deception or lies or for any other reason.

        I'll give you some examples:

        Modern civilisation does not really believe in democracy, it has no problem preventing it from developing nor does it have any problem with close relationships with undemocratic states.

        Most foreign aid and loans are a sham. It does nothing but give certain western countries political influence, leads to high debt and gives western corporations the opportunity to make even more money, while the countries almost always never improve.

        This civilisations superiority is regularly preached however it contains the highest crime rates, the highest murder rates, the widest range of diseases, the worst family structure and you could go on.

        It is unsustainable, you can only go so far. This is a society that gets more and more decadent and it consumes more and more. That cannot go on without expecting disaster. Worse still, most people do not care that their children will live in such a society.

        Lastly, if you accept the above and more, then what effect does it have on your viewpoint. Do you still champion this civilisation along with its slogans or not. Do you speak about the above or do you keep it to yourself for fear of "dampening the mood".
        well, i think that on the world stage states are motivated by maintaining their power/security rather than ideological concerns, and this isn't just western states. modern civilisation as you put it, does i think believe in democracy - has produced various ngo's, charities etc that hopefully do some good where gov. aid schemes do not. states contradict their own values in foreign policy and are perfectly willing to trample on the developing world in order to further themselves. arms trade etc.

        this discrepency isn't unique to the west; find me a state where their ideology/ideal of 'good' directs foreign policy. :colonhash:

        the highest rates of crime/murder? really? source? cos i'm really surprised... and the 'worst' family structure depends on your definition - i prefer the western type to the polygamous structure in some other societies.

        every society has social problems tbh and i expect different types of crime are more prevalent in different societies. for instance, i haven't heard good things about the prevalence of rape/attitudes to it in a couple of places in the middle east. ahhhhh, i just think that the west isnae a utopia and should be criticised to improve; liberalism is about progression. but i like it here. :awesome:
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        (Original post by Margaret Thatcher)
        No, I won't stick to a Western civilisation bash-fest to fuel your sense of satisfaction and to make other, barbaric civilisations look morally superior when they are far from it. Regardless of any flaws you can spout, the plain fact remains that, although not perfect, Western civilisation is far more preferable to a large proportion of the other civilisations that exist on this planet.
        The voice of reason shall prevail.
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        (Original post by AskMeAnything)
        I enjoy living in a society where I am safe, where I live under the fair rule of law which is equally upheld to every citizen from our rulers to the poorest, and where I can vote to democratically elect those who govern me based on my principles.

        You can't just state that 'western society' is bad without giving us something to compare it to. What kind of society would you prefer?
        Thats the thing though, aside from a useless vote, you think you get all of that while your Governments nonchalantly go around spreading chaos in all directions. Can you seriously tell someone your happy with a civilization which takes from others its resources, stability, wealth, culture, blood, while at the same time having nothing productive to offer. To maintain your illusory comfort, more lose it.

        Even what you just said is a charade, hear me out. Your vote is useless, how exactly is your society safe, while you aren't even safe from your own Governments, you live in a surveillance state which fiends for more and more information. And if it comes to it you'll find that you have a disadvantage compared to the ultra rich, in government, big business, military etc. While you may choose based on your principles, they don't rule by your principles. Ask yourself how many people in England can actually say that they actually rule according to my principles.
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        (Original post by AskMeAnything)
        I enjoy living in a society where I am safe, where I live under the fair rule of law which is equally upheld to every citizen from our rulers to the poorest, and where I can vote to democratically elect those who govern me based on my principles.

        You can't just state that 'western society' is bad without giving us something to compare it to. What kind of society would you prefer?
        a non-materialistic society
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          (Original post by roots)
          To maintain your illusory comfort, more lose it.
          Not really. Over the past 200 years, almost all countries in the world have seen a significant increase in life expectancy and an increase in income. Watch this interactive chart to see global progress.

          While utopic illusions should be tempered, your wild swing to nihilism is just as bad a phenomenon as that which you wish to criticise.
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          (Original post by roots)
          Which aspect/s of modern civilisation (its values, slogans, systems, long term stances etc) do you reject, whether its because you feel it is deception or lies or for any other reason.

          I'll give you some examples:

          Modern civilisation does not really believe in democracy, it has no problem preventing it from developing nor does it have any problem with close relationships with undemocratic states.

          Most foreign aid and loans are a sham. It does nothing but give certain western countries political influence, leads to high debt and gives western corporations the opportunity to make even more money, while the countries almost always never improve.

          This civilisations superiority is regularly preached however it contains the highest crime rates, the highest murder rates, the widest range of diseases, the worst family structure and you could go on.

          It is unsustainable, you can only go so far. This is a society that gets more and more decadent and it consumes more and more. That cannot go on without expecting disaster. Worse still, most people do not care that their children will live in such a society.

          Lastly, if you accept the above and more, then what effect does it have on your viewpoint. Do you still champion this civilisation along with its slogans or not. Do you speak about the above or do you keep it to yourself for fear of "dampening the mood".
          Absolute tosh. The countries with the highest murder rates in the world are south American and African countries.

          Western civilisation have the highest standards of living, the highest in the human development index etc.

          You are talking utter garbage.
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          (Original post by Jody Mcintyre)
          Absolute tosh. The countries with the highest murder rates in the world are south American and African countries.

          Western civilisation have the highest standards of living, the highest in the human development index etc.

          You are talking utter garbage.
          True, that is an error. Picking at one point rarely makes every point "absolute tosh". If you think i was deceptive, you can do better than replace it with another deception.

          Is it reaching too far for me to expect you to suppose that the index ignores the great holes and problems with your society.

          Reading the thread closely would inform you that i'm not arguing against it having high standards of living. Its hardly surprising when Western civilization runs riot through the rest of the world, openly and not. I'd say that your standard of living actually blinds you over the health of your civilization, you have difficulties looking beyond, as if as long as the GDP comes good, pursue recklessness.
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          (Original post by roots)
          True, that is an error. Picking at one point rarely makes every point "absolute tosh". If you think i was deceptive, you can do better than replace it with another deception.

          Is it reaching too far for me to expect you to suppose that the index ignores the great holes and problems with your society.

          Reading the thread closely would inform you that i'm not arguing against it having high standards of living. Its hardly surprising when Western civilization runs riot through the rest of the world, openly and not. I'd say that your standard of living actually blinds you over the health of your civilization, you have difficulties looking beyond, as if as long as the GDP comes good, pursue recklessness.
          Western civilisation is the most liberal civilisation on earth, we tolerate everyone and everything even when other groups are the most intolerant groups. We are world leaders in eqaulity and equal rights for women to homosexuals.

          What is wrong with our civilisation exactly ?
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          (Original post by Jody Mcintyre)
          Western civilisation is the most liberal civilisation on earth, we tolerate everyone and everything even when other groups are the most intolerant groups. We are world leaders in eqaulity and equal rights for women to homosexuals.

          What is wrong with our civilisation exactly ?
          Being liberal and being beneficial are not the same.

          Why couldn't you view that as a weakness. (You don't actually tolerate everything and everyone, your laws do not tolerate everything and you do not tolerate everyone but i think i understand what you mean) What you do tolerate gives you more problems, you tolerate spreading filth and destructive behaviours/attitudes through the media and that gives you a great number of problems. If someone were to put you through half of what your senses go through, 100 years ago, even less, it would be seen as subversion. When you make everything available, that includes bad and good and many people will find themselves in some form of destruction... drugs, infidelity, gluttony, materialism, debt, disease, crime, addiction, ignorance, mental illness, depression etc. You put everything in front of a person, 9 out of 10 don't have the required restraint, most civilisations understand this except for yours.

          Heres an example that shows some of the insanity in your civilisation. You plow millions in currency, resources and manpower into fighting crime while at the same time your media promotes, teaches and glamorises it.

          How can others come close to your intolerance, while you interfere with almost every country on every continent, your tolerance only goes as far as its borders and its price is ignorance and apathy. It certainly doesn't include your enemies, you are incapable of showing superiority in morality to an enemy, any beneficial aim or any productive contribution, you only show cruelty. You could even argue that you and every citizen are not tolerated or treated with meaningful respect. You live in a civilisation that is paranoid and suspicious over its citizens and/or one that undermines its citizens privacy for more power, whichever one you believe, both of them exhibit its insanity.
         
         
         
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