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Toadpipe
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I had an interview before Christmas and one of the other candidates got
the job. I met them at a Christmas party and discovered that they were
the only one of the candidates who was not a qualified teacher. At £12k
pa less, I think they had an advantage.

The way forward?
0
Slieber24
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In article <[email protected] sting.google.com>,
[email protected] (toadpipe) writes:

[q1]>I had an interview before Christmas and one of the other candidates got[/q1]
[q1]>the job. I met them at a Christmas party and discovered that they were[/q1]
[q1]>the only one of the candidates who was not a qualified teacher. At £12k[/q1]
[q1]>pa less, I think they had an advantage.[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]>The way forward?[/q1]

And possibly better, as well. Paper qualifications do not necessarily
make for a competent teacher.

----------------------------------------------------
Sandi

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0
Witchee Poo
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SLieber24, wibbled
[q1]>In article <[email protected] sting.google.com>,[/q1]
[q1]>[email protected] (toadpipe) writes:[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q2]>>I had an interview before Christmas and one of the other candidates[/q2]
[q2]>>got the job. I met them at a Christmas party and discovered that they[/q2]
[q2]>>were the only one of the candidates who was not a qualified teacher.[/q2]
[q2]>>At £12k pa less, I think they had an advantage.[/q2]
[q2]>>[/q2]
[q2]>>The way forward?[/q2]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]>And possibly better, as well. Paper qualifications do not necessarily[/q1]
[q1]>make for a competent teacher.[/q1]

Sandi! How can you say that? How rude!

--
Witchee
0
Toadpipe
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"SLieber24" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
[q1]> In article <[email protected] sting.google.com>,[/q1]
[q1]> [email protected] (toadpipe) writes:[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q2]> >I had an interview before Christmas and one of the other candidates[/q2]
[q2]> >got the job. I met them at a Christmas party and discovered that they[/q2]
[q2]> >were the only one of the candidates who was not a qualified teacher.[/q2]
[q2]> >At £12k pa less, I think they had an advantage.[/q2]
[q2]> >[/q2]
[q2]> >The way forward?[/q2]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> And possibly better, as well. Paper qualifications do not necessarily[/q1]
[q1]> make for a competent teacher.[/q1]

Ah well, I've worked in lots of schools because I do supply...

...but the point is that schools don't have to employ teachers if they
don't want to which rather defeats the reason for having paper
qualifications.
0
Slieber24
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#5
In article <[email protected] sting.google.com>,
[email protected] (toadpipe) writes:

[q2]>> >I had an interview before Christmas and one of the other candidates[/q2]
[q2]>> >got the job. I met them at a Christmas party and discovered that[/q2]
[q2]>> >they were the only one of the candidates who was not a qualified[/q2]
[q2]>> >teacher. At £12k pa less, I think they had an advantage.[/q2]
[q2]>> >[/q2]
[q2]>> >The way forward?[/q2]
[q2]>>[/q2]
[q2]>> And possibly better, as well. Paper qualifications do not[/q2]
[q2]>> necessarily make[/q2]
[q1]>for[/q1]
[q2]>> a competent teacher.[/q2]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]>Ah well, I've worked in lots of schools because I do supply...[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]>...but the point is that schools don't have to employ teachers if they[/q1]
[q1]>don't want to which rather defeats the reason for having paper[/q1]
[q1]>qualifications.[/q1]

This has been true for a very long time - being able to teach without
paper qualifications. Have you not noticed?

In any case, if this candidate was picked over you, then that candidate
most likely was better than you in more than just monetary ways. Learn
to live with
it.

----------------------------------------------------
Sandi

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Slieber24
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[q3]>>>I had an interview before Christmas and one of the other candidates[/q3]
[q3]>>>got the job. I met them at a Christmas party and discovered that they[/q3]
[q3]>>>were the only one of the candidates who was not a qualified teacher.[/q3]
[q3]>>>At £12k pa less, I think they had an advantage.[/q3]
[q3]>>>[/q3]
[q3]>>>The way forward?[/q3]
[q2]>>[/q2]
[q2]>>And possibly better, as well. Paper qualifications do not[/q2]
[q2]>>necessarily make[/q2]
[q1]>for[/q1]
[q2]>>a competent teacher.[/q2]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]>Sandi! How can you say that? How rude![/q1]

I've met some fantastic LSAs who were much better than the classroom
teacher they worked with.

It's true - paper does not mean competence.

----------------------------------------------------
Sandi

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Lurker
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"toadpipe" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]... sniped for
band width

discovered that they
[q1]> were the only one of the candidates who was not a qualified teacher.[/q1]
[q1]> At £12k pa less, I think they had an advantage.[/q1]

Probably - at least in part! When I was an "unqualified" teacher
(that is I had a Cert Ed HE/FE and an M.Ed as well as a subject
degree) I found it much easier to get a job. Getting QTS was the
worst thing I ever did, it pushed me up the pay scale and made me too
expensive to employ.

However, I do agree with Sandi that paper qualifications do not a
teacher make. I am ( and was as an unqualified also) a good teacher and
that, together with my lack of QTS, making me cheap was how I got my job
in school.

I've since returned to FE teaching though ( pay scales are the same for
both QTS and "unqualified" there)
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> The way forward?[/q1]
As in FE make no distinctions?
0
Derek McMillan
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#8
It would be a bit worrying if they used this as an excuse to lower
everyone's wages - to replace the expensive qualified teacher with an
inexpensive unqualified one who was "just as good." Or do you perhaps
feel you would like to earn less money?

On 08 Jan 2002 06:04:14 GMT, [email protected] (SLieber24) wrote:

[q1]>I've met some fantastic LSAs who were much better than the classroom[/q1]
[q1]>teacher they worked with.[/q1]

----------------------------------------
http://www.geocities.com/derekmcmillan1951 You can contact me by email
or ICQ 87147116
0
Toadpipe
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#9
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#9
"Derek McMillan" <[email protected] ail.com> wrote in
message news:[email protected]...

[q1]> It would be a bit worrying if they used this as an excuse to lower[/q1]
[q1]> everyone's wages - to replace the expensive qualified teacher with an[/q1]
[q1]> inexpensive unqualified one who was "just as good." Or do you perhaps[/q1]
[q1]> feel you would like to earn less money?[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
I glad someone uderstand the point of my posting. On reflection it
seemed a bit odd that a panel of 3 teachers and someone who had no
teaching experience should result in that outcome.

They're struggling a bit too, having not known what to expect behaviour
wise from the LEA's toughest school.
0
Ian
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#10
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#10
On Tue, 08 Jan 2002 00:56:12 +0000, toadpipe wrote:

[q1]> "SLieber24" <[email protected]> wrote in message[/q1]
[q1]> news:[email protected]...[/q1]
[q2]>> In article <[email protected] sting.google.com>,[/q2]
[q2]>> [email protected] (toadpipe) writes:[/q2]
[q2]>>[/q2]
[q2]>> >I had an interview before Christmas and one of the other candidates[/q2]
[q2]>> >got the job. I met them at a Christmas party and discovered that[/q2]
[q2]>> >they were the only one of the candidates who was not a qualified[/q2]
[q2]>> >teacher. At £12k pa less, I think they had an advantage.[/q2]
[q2]>> >[/q2]
[q2]>> >The way forward?[/q2]
[q2]>>[/q2]
[q2]>> And possibly better, as well. Paper qualifications do not necessarily[/q2]
[q2]>> make for a competent teacher.[/q2]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> Ah well, I've worked in lots of schools because I do supply...[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> ..but the point is that schools don't have to employ teachers if they[/q1]
[q1]> don't want to which rather defeats the reason for having paper[/q1]
[q1]> qualifications.[/q1]

I'm rather puzzled that educators think the prime function of a
qualification is to provide an entry ticket to a closed shop. I always
thought a qualification was to indicate that a certain course of
learning had been experienced and a standard of knowledge and
understanding achieved. That of course should put the bearer of the
qualification at a distinct advantage in the employment stakes but it
could be outweighed by other factors. Given the pressure on schools to
get results the difficulty most seem to experience in recruiting *good*
teachers, I would have thought in general market forces were on your
side at present. I was just in a school yesterday that said it has great
difficulty in getting good people, one that rang me up to-day that is
appointing a scientist in a SMT position to get someone of quality. All
very strange.

Regards,

--
IanL
0
Toadpipe
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#11
Ian" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news[email protected] aphod.com...
[q1]> On Tue, 08 Jan 2002 00:56:12 +0000, toadpipe wrote:[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q2]> > "SLieber24" <[email protected]> wrote in message[/q2]
[q2]> > news:[email protected]...[/q2]
[q2]> >> In article <[email protected] sting.google.com>,[/q2]
[q2]> >> [email protected] (toadpipe) writes:[/q2]
[q2]> >>[/q2]
[q2]> >> >I had an interview before Christmas and one of the other[/q2]
[q2]> >> >candidates got the job. I met them at a Christmas party and[/q2]
[q2]> >> >discovered that they were the only one of the candidates who was[/q2]
[q2]> >> >not a qualified teacher. At £12k pa less, I think they had an[/q2]
[q2]> >> >advantage.[/q2]
[q2]> >> >[/q2]
[q2]> >> >The way forward?[/q2]
[q2]> >>[/q2]
[q2]> >> And possibly better, as well. Paper qualifications do not[/q2]
[q2]> >> necessarily make for a competent teacher.[/q2]
[q2]> >[/q2]
[q2]> > Ah well, I've worked in lots of schools because I do supply...[/q2]
[q2]> >[/q2]
[q2]> > ..but the point is that schools don't have to employ teachers if[/q2]
[q2]> > they don't want to which rather defeats the reason for having paper[/q2]
[q2]> > qualifications.[/q2]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> I'm rather puzzled that educators think the prime function of a[/q1]
[q1]> qualification is to provide an entry ticket to a closed shop.[/q1]

I don't...

[q1]>I always thought a qualification was to indicate that a certain course[/q1]
[q1]>of learning had been experienced and a standard of knowledge and[/q1]
[q1]>understanding achieved.[/q1]

That is the whole point. I suppose I'd make a good surgeon and could
help reduce waiting lists if only I were allowed into the theatre.

Anyone joining my queue?

[q1]>That of course should put the bearer of the qualification at a distinct[/q1]
[q1]>advantage in the employment stakes but it could be outweighed by other[/q1]
[q1]>factors. Given the pressure on schools to get results the difficulty[/q1]
[q1]>most seem to experience in recruiting *good* teachers, I would have[/q1]
[q1]>thought in general market forces were on your side at present. I was[/q1]
[q1]>just in a school yesterday that said it has great difficulty in getting[/q1]
[q1]>good people, one that rang me up to-day that is appointing a scientist[/q1]
[q1]>in a SMT position to get someone of quality. All very strange.[/q1]

I recall that several students dropped out of my PGCE course and I was
on a placement where one student was asked to leave the course. That
happens in all professions and is essential if the piece of paper is to
mean anything.

But there are money and manpower pressures and since you can get two
unqualified teachers for every qualified one it probably makes sense to
employ two rather than one.

I don't know if contractural conditions are the same.
0
`P
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#12
Witchee Poo wrote:

[q1]> SLieber24, wibbled[/q1]
[q2]>>In article <[email protected] sting.google.com>,[/q2]
[q2]>>[email protected] (toadpipe) writes:[/q2]
[q2]>>[/q2]
[q3]>>>I had an interview before Christmas and one of the other candidates[/q3]
[q3]>>>got the job. I met them at a Christmas party and discovered that they[/q3]
[q3]>>>were the only one of the candidates who was not a qualified teacher.[/q3]
[q3]>>>At £12k pa less, I think they had an advantage.[/q3]
[q3]>>>[/q3]
[q3]>>>The way forward?[/q3]
[q2]>>[/q2]
[q2]>>And possibly better, as well. Paper qualifications do not necessarily[/q2]
[q2]>>make for a competent teacher.[/q2]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> Sandi! How can you say that? How rude![/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
Becasue she doesn't like Toadpipe -- nor that he has on many occasions
bested her in this ng. :-)
--
`p
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Ian
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#13
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#13
On Tue, 08 Jan 2002 22:51:22 +0000, toadpipe wrote:

[q1]> I don't...[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q2]>>I always thought a qualification was to indicate that a certain course[/q2]
[q2]>>of learning had been experienced and a standard of knowledge and[/q2]
[q2]>>understanding achieved.[/q2]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> That is the whole point. I suppose I'd make a good surgeon and could[/q1]
[q1]> help reduce waiting lists if only I were allowed into the theatre.[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> Anyone joining my queue?[/q1]

Totally different type of skill set. Whereas its manifestly obvious that
some people who have not trained as teachers can actually do the job
very well, it is not the case with say a brain surgeon.

[q2]>>That of course should put the bearer of the qualification at a[/q2]
[q2]>>distinct advantage in the employment stakes but it could be outweighed[/q2]
[q2]>>by other factors. Given the pressure on schools to get results the[/q2]
[q2]>>difficulty most seem to experience in recruiting *good* teachers, I[/q2]
[q2]>>would have thought in general market forces were on your side at[/q2]
[q2]>>present. I was just in a school yesterday that said it has great[/q2]
[q2]>>difficulty in getting good people, one that rang me up to-day that is[/q2]
[q2]>>appointing a scientist in a SMT position to get someone of quality.[/q2]
[q2]>>All very strange.[/q2]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> I recall that several students dropped out of my PGCE course and I was[/q1]
[q1]> on a placement where one student was asked to leave the course. That[/q1]
[q1]> happens in all professions and is essential if the piece of paper is[/q1]
[q1]> to mean anything.[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> But there are money and manpower pressures and since you can get two[/q1]
[q1]> unqualified teachers for every qualified one it probably makes sense[/q1]
[q1]> to employ two rather than one.[/q1]

If the outcome is better for children fine. It it isn't its not.

Regards,

--
IanL
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Lurker
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#14
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#14
"SLieber24" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
[q1]> In article <[email protected] sting.google.com>,[/q1]
[q1]> [email protected] (toadpipe) writes:[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q2]> >I recall that several students dropped out of my PGCE course and I[/q2]
[q2]> >was on a placement where one student was asked to leave the course.[/q2]
[q2]> >That happens in all professions and is essential if the piece of[/q2]
[q2]> >paper is to mean anything.[/q2]
[q2]> >[/q2]
[q2]> >But there are money and manpower pressures and since you can get two[/q2]
[q2]> >unqualified teachers for every qualified one it probably makes sense[/q2]
[q2]> >to employ two rather than one.[/q2]
[q2]> >[/q2]
[q2]> >I don't know if contractural conditions are the same.[/q2]

When I was teaching as an "unqualified" the conditions were the
same as CPS
. I was simply paid less ( top of unqualified scale is about 6 on
mainscale , which is where I was.

As to your point about the "failing of students on PGCE , I know of
several who I have had to work with who should have been failed and
weren't - so much for standards. One got herself beaten up in her first
teaching placement , but it was deemed a "rough school and she carried
on. She couldn't cope in her second school so they transferred her to my
department. She was weak and ineffectual even after almost three terms.
She qualified. She got a job. She was beaten up in her first school. She
found a second job. She was beaten up again. She got a third job, in a
"good school". And she is still struggling. I think of several others
with similar profiles! So much for the qualifications.
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> I got QTS. It hasn't stopped me getting job offers, nor has[/q1]
[q1]> being at the[/q1]
top of
[q1]> the scale stopped it.[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
You are in SE England aren't you? I know I could get a job easily if I
could afford to move there! However I live in Cornwall and there are
no teacher shortages, in fact there is a strong teacher surplus. I
have a job. I have never been without work. I know of others who work
at the check outs in Tescos ( not by choice) I consider myself lucky
to have a job!
0
Witchee Poo
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#15
greebs, wibbled
[q1]>Scatterbunny wibbled...[/q1]
[q2]>>Tux womprited:[/q2]
[q2]>>[/q2]
[q3]>>> Toads, like penguins, are endangered species; therefore I urge you to put that bugle down.[/q3]
[q2]>>[/q2]
[q2]>>According to the GCSE mock English exam paper I've just finished marking, an "indangred speces is[/q2]
[q2]>>when the aminals are too dangruos to be let out of the zoo even through we like to see them in[/q2]
[q2]>>habitat."[/q2]
[q2]>>[/q2]
[q2]>>Personally, I don't like to see them in Habitat. (Munch small mountain of cod, prawn and[/q2]
[q2]>>cous-cous.) What is that man on about, anyway?[/q2]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]>This thread is giving me sensations of deja-vu. (Amongst other things)[/q1]

You can get tablets for that. I have.

--
Witchee
0
Kathy McIntosh
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#16
In article <[email protected] sting.google.com>, toadpipe
<[email protected]> writes
[q1]>"Kathy McIntosh" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:vn1FFTACzaQ8[/q1]
[q1]>[email protected][/q1]
[q2]>> In article <[email protected] sting.google.com>, toadpipe[/q2]
[q2]>> <[email protected]> writes[/q2]
[q2]>> >"SLieber24" <[email protected]> wrote in message[/q2]
[q1]>news:20020113024935.16713[/q1]
[q2]>> >[email protected][/q2]
[q2]>>[/q2]
[q2]>> Snip of the argument which should be going on in private, if only to spare the rest of us Toady's[/q2]
[q2]>> rude and childish behaviour[/q2]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]>You mean that you aren't interested in the meat of the argument about the replacement of teachers[/q1]
[q1]>with instructors[/q1]

I am interested. Or rather, I was until you demeaned the whole subject. Schools appoint instructors
rather then teachers for a whole number of reasons. If you can prove it has been done purely on
monetary grounds, and to the detriment of the pupils, then take it up with the unions.
[q1]>and think that what is important is sandi's vindictive pursuit of me through the education[/q1]
[q1]>newsgroups. I don't even know the woman - if it is a woman.[/q1]
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ And he claims he isn't being rude! If
you honestly don't know, then you should have used "they
are", not "it is". People are not inanimate objects.
[q1]>[/q1]
[q2]>> So you lied in your original post. You may not think so, but what you posted gave the impression[/q2]
[q2]>> that you were a candidate.[/q2]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]>The facts are there but I'm not about to identify schools and candidates, unlike some. And it is[/q1]
[q1]>easier to put it into first person...[/q1]

So you told a lie and misled us all.

Snip

[q1]>Definitely my last post.[/q1]

Well, thank heaven for small mercies. Goodbye and good riddance.

--
Kathy There is nothing more dangerous than a man with an idea.
0
Greebs
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#17
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#17
Witchee Poo wibbled...
[q1]>greebs, wibbled[/q1]
[q2]>>Scatterbunny wibbled...[/q2]
[q3]>>>According to the GCSE mock English exam paper I've just finished marking, an "indangred speces is[/q3]
[q3]>>>when the aminals are too dangruos to be let out of the zoo even through we like to see them in[/q3]
[q3]>>>habitat."[/q3]
[q3]>>>[/q3]
[q3]>>>Personally, I don't like to see them in Habitat. (Munch small mountain of cod, prawn and[/q3]
[q3]>>>cous-cous.) What is that man on about, anyway?[/q3]
[q2]>>[/q2]
[q2]>>This thread is giving me sensations of deja-vu. (Amongst other things)[/q2]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]>You can get tablets for that. I have.[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
I knew you were going to saythat.
--
greebs
0
Toadpipe
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#18
"SLieber24" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

[q1]> Except that it is not the issue. The issue is your being, for some reason, unable to get a[/q1]
[q1]> permanent post. I'm at the top of the ladder+ and have had no trouble with offers (not that I'm[/q1]
[q1]> looking to move any time soon, however).[/q1]

Whether I or not I can get a job is of no consequence at all in terms of education and
education policy.

The fact that schools will now shortlist a mixture of qualified and unqualifed people is a matter
of consequence. It represents a sea change in policy and is something that needs to be addressed
by teachers.

Anyone who can't see the difference is certainly not sufficiently intelligent to be a teacher.

<Usual unpleasantness snipped
0
Chris Ferguson
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#19
"toadpipe" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
[q1]> "Kathy McIntosh" <[email protected]> wrote in message[/q1]
news:[email protected]...
[q2]> > In article <[email protected] sting.google.com>, toadpipe <[email protected]>[/q2]
[q2]> > writes[/q2]
[q3]> > >"SLieber24" <[email protected]> wrote in message[/q3]
news:20020113024935.16713
[q3]> > >[email protected][/q3]
[q2]> >[/q2]
[q2]> > Snip[/q2]

Children, if you can't get on together, ignore one another. This *is* an option.
P.S. Would you like my job teaching sums, Toady? Independent school territory, no pension, no
rights, don't have a contract (many advantages!), poor heating and light, but: great staff,
nice kids, paid every month, longer holidays :-), no OFFTURD!!! Chris
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