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Affordable Housing for First Time Buyers Watch

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    Hello all. [Great Forum ]

    I hope this post will clarify some of the 'mystery' surrounding house prices for some of you students.

    I have watched the protests against tuition fee's with interest, and realise how unfair it is. However, your tuition fee debt, is small potatoes, when compared to the biggest purchase the majority of people will take on in their lifetimes, after leaving Uni.

    The purchase of your first house.

    [The following is an excerpt from a Letter I sent to a Lib Dem MP]


    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    We have been priced out of housing for over a decade.

    In 1997, according to the Office of National Statistics, the national average wage was £16,666.
    According to the Nationwide Building Society the Average House price in 1997 was £55k.
    £16,666/£55,000 = 3.3x salary [mortgage]

    * The Average First Timer Buyer mortgage in 1997 was just £41.5k [CML]

    By 2007, at the peak of the boom [according to the Office of National Statistics] the national average wage had risen to £23.5k
    The Average House Price in 2007 was £185k.
    £185,000/£23.5k = 7.8x salary [mortgage]

    Conclusion:
    The national average salary in the UK has risen by around £6K from 1997 to 2007 as house prices have more than trebled.

    The Average house price would need to fall by around 60% in value, from its peak 2007 valuation, to return to historically acceptable inflationary affordability of 3 – 3.5x salary

    [Over two thirds of the UK earn less than average wage. In 2008 an ONS survey showed that over 6 million people earn £10k per annum or less. These included Hairdressers and Cleaners.]

    Year after year we have seen house prices rise further and further out of our reach.

    Forced to waste tens of thousands of pounds in rent. To a liar loan landlord. Because of Labours sheer, evil incompetence, and the banks greed and theft.

    Everyone I know earns between £12k-£24k per annum.
    From 1987 to 1997 the Average House Price rose from £40k to £55k.

    A 33.3% rise over ten years.

    From 1997 to 2007, the Average House Price rose from £55k to £190k [Nationwide Building Society figures]
    A staggering 245.5% increase over the same period. [Ten years.]

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Why did this happen?

    1. “In America, the Glass-Steagall Act had protected deposit-taking commercial banks from the risky activities of the investment banks. Congress was effectively obliged to repeal the Act in 1999 because New York was losing its business to London, which had no such restrictions and the “light touch” regulation encouraged by Gordon Brown. Had Britain [Brown] enacted similar legislation to Glass-Steagall, the US Act would not have been repealed, the City would have made less money but the banking collapse in both America and Britain would have been avoided”

    2. Complete failure to build social housing. Labour built , an average of 26,000 fewer homes each year between 1997 and 2009. Under Tony Blair and Gordon Brown, the country witnessed the lowest level of house building in peacetime since 1924

    3. The tripartite system put in place by New Labour to regulate the economy was a direct cause for the financial crisis.
    Lord Vallance, chairman of the House of Lords economics affairs committee. [Tasked to look into the causes of the Crisis]
    * “It is clear that in the UK the tripartite authorities of the Bank of England, FSA, and the Treasury failed to maintain financial stability, in part because it was not clear who was in charge in a crisis and because not enough attention was paid to macro-prudential supervision – oversight of the aggregate effect of the actions of individual banks – in the period when ‘boom and bust’ occured.

    4.In his 1997 budget, Brown abolished dividend tax credits on pension funds. Companies saw the writing on the wall and immediately ended their final salary pension schemes to new employees shortly after the ‘Brown raid’.* The value of pension funds have since lost around £5bn per year since the 1997 tax relief cuts. Pension funds holding the cash that almost everyone in the country had planned to use for our retirement have lost around £100 billion over 12 years. [1997-2007]
    The advice Brown was given by this Treasury Paper, in 1997 was as follows:

    ‘The changes in incentives are likely to lead to substantial changes in portfolios. Pension funds will find equity relatively less attractive, and will prefer other assets – particularly interest bearing securities and foreign equity – and may also be prompted to consider more direct property investment.’

    This was ignored by Brown. Those funds were then channelled into fuelling an unsustainable property bubble, {Buy To Let portfolios,} which developed because of Labours complete lack of regulation of the Banks.This was followed by rising house prices, ever increasing toxic mortgage debt, and this was followed by the bank bailouts.
    Roughly 60% of houses historically acquired by First Time Buyers, were then acquired by the Buy To Let brigade. This figure rose year on year, from 1998-2003.
    FTBers were priced out completely.

    This is just one example of Gordon Browns incompetent decision making which helped to create the cornerstone of the debt bubble.

    5.Brown had every opportunity to face the problem. Instead in 2003 Brown switched the housing inflation figures from RPI to CPI, hiding the debt. [Much the Same thing he did with PFI.]

    THESE are the reasons house prices rose to astronomical unsustainable levels.

    Without the bank bailouts, house prices would have crashed by 60% plus.
    So the only reason they have not crashed is because of Government theft of our taxes and QE.
    So the theft of the future generations taxes, and the devaluation of the pound in our pockets, via QE, to pay for this toxic mortgage debt, Is In effect, forcing us to pay for others houses, whilst keeping house prices massively overinflated, ensuring we can never afford our own house. A debt transfer has taken place.

    We are working for nothing. No capital. Forced to waste tens upon tens of thousands of pounds in rent. If this had not happened, millions of us would have got onto the ladder ten years ago, and likely paid off most of our mortgage.

    Its soul destroying. [How many who own houses, could afford their houses if they had to buy them right now?]

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    The Labour Party are incompetent economic Fascists.
    The Labour party have implemented policies which support one section of a society, to the extreme detriment of another section of that society [via blatant theft and cronyism]
    Obviously not a ‘socialist’ or ‘democratic’ act.
    You think the cuts and the pain are just arriving now. Try working for nothing, for over a decade, and being utterly ignored. [Every Email sent to Labour was ignored, over 8 years, until it transpired that my local Labour MP, had made over £200k flipping houses in a secret expenses system.]

    In 2009 When the Telegraph first broke the expenses scandal.
    Gordon Brown and LABOUR forced a three line whip, to try to exempt MP's second home expenses from the Freedom Of Information act.
    From being made public. [Both the Tories and Lib dems voted in favour of MP's expenses for second homes being made public.]
    Sir Ian Kennedy, chairman of the new Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority (Ipsa) ruled that Ministers should repay profits on their second homes.
    However, that only applies to gains from November 2009!
    So profits from massive House Price Increases UP TO November 2009, were locked in.

    HPI was all cream for our elected officials.
    [Profits from second homes needed to be backdated to 1997, or the beginning of an MP's tenure.]
    The truth is that there was never any political will to enable the average person earning average wage to be able to afford an average house in a rising unregulated market, under a secret expenses system, where MP’s were all flipping houses, making hundreds of thousands in personal profits.
    Not one MP represented the average wage earner.
    It is not just that they used our money to profit, and paid no tax on the gains, it is also that it created a dangerous conflict of interest that meant that voting for policies which fed the house price bubble, for so many years, such as keeping IR too low for too long, CGT etc, also generated personal profits for them, in secret.
    In any other profession this would be a criminal offence. It is market manipulation. Far worse than insider trading.
    And now we see nothing has changed. [Whilst MP's are allowed to profit in this fashion, we will never see a tax on BTL. We will never see affordable housing]
    Words Fail me. I honestly believe if MPs had not been making personal profits on first, second, even third homes for all those years, in secret, then rising house prices, the tripartite system, would have been examined a lot more closely. Probably ten years ago.
    Proudhon criticized big capitalist property from the petty-bourgeois position and dreamed of perpetuating small private ownership…….
    [Everything New Labour DIDNT do]

    “We do not hesitate to assert that there is no more terrible mockery of the whole culture of our lauded century than the fact that in the big cities more and more of the population have no place that they can call their own. The real key point of moral and family existence, hearth and home, is being swept away”


    The most notable characteristic of a FASCIST ideology is the separation and persecution or denial of equality to a specific segment of the population.
    The preferred class lives in relative comfort, while the oppressed class lives in a Fascist state.
    Labour’s Fascist State.
    Millions of us have already worked for over a decade for nothing. No capital. Unable to get ahead in life. Forced to waste tens upon tesn of thousands of pounds in rent. And we are so beyond sick of this, it beggars belief.
    Its theft. Plain and simple.
    You know what? We are past caring.
    I want to know whether to take to the streets ‘Greek style’ for the next few years, or continue to try to be a productive hardworking taxpaying member of society?
    Its your decision. We voted for fairness, after 13 years of having those evil b****** in government.

    All we ever wanted was a decent job and a small house. Which we could work for and pay for.
    Stop this blatant theft. Bring house prices back down.
    What good has it done?
    The gap between rich and poor has never been greater. And it has been created by Labour and the banks, who have gotten away with the biggest fraud in history.
    If you have kids they will rent forever. Until you die and pass them your house. If you trade up or down, it will cost you more in exchange taxes, stamp duty. High house prices are good for no-one except the parasites in our society.

    I am not working for nothing. No capital, for another decade. I'm just not doing it.

    We want fairness. A chance to work for something we can call our own.

    If Labour had not purposefully manipulated house prices to rise, placing millions of us in debt slavery, we would have likely got onto the ladder over a decade ago, and paid off most of our mortgage.

    Stop this Blatant Theft.

    What we need are:

    Tax on BTL?
    Introduce a Land Levy Tax?
    Increase CGT on second properties?
    Build more social housing?
    etc etc

    I hope this gives you a clearer picture of what it is like after leaving Uni, and entering the working enviroment. Although this sounds like a harsh critique, I can assure you, I have not covered in detail, subjects such as 'Liar Loan's' in full.

    Whereby people earning £10k per annum were able to borrow enough money to buy literally tens of houses. And were encouraged to do so by the banks, with the full knowledge and active encouragement of the Labour government. It was absolute insanity. So as well as paying for our 'liar loan' landlords mortgage, we are also being forced to bail out the banks, like the Bradford and Bingley, Northern Rock, HBOS Lloyds who fraudulently lent him the money, and then went bust! . [Our landlord does not have to work. We have paid for his lifestyle. This is economic indentured slavery] This is complicated thievery.

    We are all in this together. The Labour Party have been instrumental in creating this debt, and then transferred this debt directly onto us. And they now hope people are too stupid to realise this.

    You should be protesting on the streets. We all should.

    [Maybe the millions of ex Students priced out of housing for over ten years, should join a march with the present Students?]


    Regards

    Daniel.


    "I will not let house prices get out of control and put at risk the sustainability of the future"

    Gordon Brown 1997.



    [I graduated in 1996. However, I found this forum as I have been seriously considering post grad studies through the OU.]
    I've been in active employment in the private sector for over ten years in a consulting role for Engineering companies.]
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    (Original post by Dan1el)
    Hello all. [Great Forum ]

    I have watched the Student protests against tuition fee's with interest, and realise how unfair it is.

    [I graduated in 1996. However, I found this forum as I have been seriously considering post grad studies through the OU.]
    I've been in active employment in the private sector for over ten years in a consulting role for Engineering companies.]

    I hope this post will clarify some of the 'mystery' surrounding house prices for some of you students.

    The tuition fee debt, is small potatoes, when compared to the biggest debt the majority of people will take on in their lifetimes, after leaving Uni.

    The purchase of your first house.

    We have been priced out of housing for over a decade.

    In 1997, according to the Office of National Statistics, the national average wage was £16,666.
    According to the Nationwide Building Society the Average House price in 1997 was £55k.
    £16,666/£55,000 = 3.3x salary [mortgage]

    * The Average FTB mortgage in 1997 was just £41.5k [CML]

    By 2007, at the peak of the boom [according to the Office of National Statistics] the national average wage had risen to £23.5k
    The Average House Price in 2007 was £185k.
    £185,000/£23.5k = 7.8x salary [mortgage]

    Conclusion:
    The national average salary in the UK has risen by around £6K from 1997 to 2007 as house prices have more than trebled.

    The Average house price would need to fall by around 60% in value, from its peak 2007 valuation, to fall back in line with historically acceptable inflationary affordability of 3 – 3.5x salary

    [Over two thirds of the UK earn less than average wage. In 2008 an ONS survey showed that over 6 million people earn £10k per annum or less. These included Hairdressers and Cleaners.]

    Year after year we have seen house prices rise further and further out of our reach.

    Forced to waste tens of thousands of pounds in rent. To a liar loan landlord. Because of Labours sheer, evil incompetence, and the banks greed and theft.

    Everyone I know earns between £12k-£24k per annum.
    From 1987 to 1997 the Average House Price rose from £40k to £55k.

    A 33.3% rise over ten years.

    From 1997 to 2007, the Average House Price rose from £55k to £190k [Nationwide Building Society figures]
    A staggering 245.5% increase over the same period. [Ten years.]
    Why did this happen?

    1. “In America, the Glass-Steagall Act had protected deposit-taking commercial banks from the risky activities of the investment banks. Congress was effectively obliged to repeal the Act in 1999 because New York was losing its business to London, which had no such restrictions and the “light touch” regulation encouraged by Gordon Brown. Had Britain [Brown] enacted similar legislation to Glass-Steagall, the US Act would not have been repealed, the City would have made less money but the banking collapse in both America and Britain would have been avoided”

    2. Complete failure to build social housing. Labour built , an average of 26,000 fewer homes each year between 1997 and 2009. Under Tony Blair and Gordon Brown, the country witnessed the lowest level of house building in peacetime since 1924

    3. The tripartite system put in place by New Labour to regulate the economy was a direct cause for the financial crisis.
    Lord Vallance, chairman of the House of Lords economics affairs committee. [Tasked to look into the causes of the Crisis]
    * “It is clear that in the UK the tripartite authorities of the Bank of England, FSA, and the Treasury failed to maintain financial stability, in part because it was not clear who was in charge in a crisis and because not enough attention was paid to macro-prudential supervision – oversight of the aggregate effect of the actions of individual banks – in the period when ‘boom and bust’ occured.

    4.In his 1997 budget, Brown abolished dividend tax credits on pension funds. Companies saw the writing on the wall and immediately ended their final salary pension schemes to new employees shortly after the ‘Brown raid’.* The value of pension funds have since lost around £5bn per year since the 1997 tax relief cuts. Pension funds holding the cash that almost everyone in the country had planned to use for our retirement have lost around £100 billion over 12 years. [1997-2007]
    The advice Brown was given by this Treasury Paper, in 1997 was as follows:

    ‘The changes in incentives are likely to lead to substantial changes in portfolios. Pension funds will find equity relatively less attractive, and will prefer other assets – particularly interest bearing securities and foreign equity – and may also be prompted to consider more direct property investment.’

    This was ignored by Brown. Those funds were then channelled into fuelling an unsustainable property bubble, {BTL portfolios,} which developed because of Labours complete lack of regulation of the Banks.This was followed by rising house prices, ever increasing toxic mortgage debt, and this was followed by the bank bailouts.
    Roughly 60% of houses historically acquired by First Time Buyers, were then acquired by the Buy To Let brigade. This figure rose year on year, from 1998-2003.
    FTBers were priced out completely.

    This is just one example of Gordon Browns incompetent decision making which helped to create the cornerstone of the debt bubble.

    5.Brown had every opportunity to face the problem. Instead in 2003 Brown switched the housing inflation figures from RPI to CPI, hiding the debt. [Much the Same thing he did with PFI.]

    THESE are the reasons house prices rose to astronomical unsustainable levels.

    Without the bank bailouts, house prices would have crashed by 60% plus.
    So the only reason they have not crashed is because of Government theft of our taxes and QE.
    So the theft of our taxes, and the devaluation of the pound in our pockets, via QE, to pay for this toxic mortgage debt, Is In effect, forcing us to pay for others houses, whilst keeping house prices massively overinflated, ensuring we can never afford our own house.

    Working for nothing. No capital.

    Its soul destroying. [How many who own houses, could afford their houses if they had to buy them right now?]

    The Labour Party are incompetent economic Fascists.
    The Labour party have implemented policies which support one section of a society, to the extreme detriment of another section of that society [via blatant theft and cronyism]
    Obviously not a ‘socialist’ or ‘democratic’ act.
    You think the cuts and the pain are just arriving now. Try working for nothing, for over a decade, and being utterly ignored. [Every Email sent to Labour was ignored, over 8 years, until it transpired that my local Labour MP, had made over £200k flipping houses in a secret expenses system.]

    In 2009 When the Telegraph first broke the expenses scandal.
    Gordon Brown and LABOUR forced a three line whip, to try to exempt MP's second home expenses from the Freedom Of Information act.
    From being made public. [Both the Tories and Lib dems voted in favour of MP's expenses for second homes being made public.]
    Sir Ian Kennedy, chairman of the new Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority (Ipsa) ruled that Ministers should repay profits on their second homes.
    However, that only applies to gains from November 2009!
    So profits from massive House Price Increases UP TO November 2009, were locked in.

    HPI was all cream for our elected officials.
    [Profits from second homes needed to be backdated to 1997, or the beginning of an MP's tenure.]
    The truth is that there was never any political will to enable the average person earning average wage to be able to afford an average house in a rising unregulated market, under a secret expenses system, where MP’s were all flipping houses, making hundreds of thousands in personal profits.
    Not one MP represented the average wage earner.
    It is not just that they used our money to profit, and paid no tax on the gains, it is also that it created a dangerous conflict of interest that meant that voting for policies which fed the house price bubble, for so many years, such as keeping IR too low for too long, CGT etc, also generated personal profits for them, in secret.
    In any other profession this would be a criminal offence. It is market manipulation. Far worse than insider trading.
    And now we see nothing has changed. [Whilst MP's are allowed to profit in this fashion, we will never see a tax on BTL. We will never see affordable housing]
    Words Fail me. I honestly believe if MPs had not been making personal profits on first, second, even third homes for all those years, in secret, then rising house prices, the tripartite system, would have been examined a lot more closely. Probably ten years ago.
    Proudhon criticized big capitalist property from the petty-bourgeois position and dreamed of perpetuating small private ownership…….
    [Everything New Labour DIDNT do]

    “We do not hesitate to assert that there is no more terrible mockery of the whole culture of our lauded century than the fact that in the big cities more and more of the population have no place that they can call their own. The real key point of moral and family existence, hearth and home, is being swept away”


    The most notable characteristic of a FASCIST ideology is the separation and persecution or denial of equality to a specific segment of the population.
    The preferred class lives in relative comfort, while the oppressed class lives in a Fascist state.
    Labour’s Fascist State.
    Millions of us have already worked for over a decade for nothing. No capital. Unable to get ahead in life. Forced to waste tens upon tesn of thousands of pounds in rent. And we are so beyond sick of this, it beggars belief.
    Its theft. Plain and simple.
    You know what? We are past caring.
    I want to know whether to take to the streets ‘Greek style’ for the next few years, or continue to try to be a productive hardworking taxpaying member of society?
    Its your decision. We voted for fairness, after 13 years of having those evil b****** in government.

    All we ever wanted was a decent job and a small house. Which we could work for and pay for.
    Stop this blatant theft. Bring house prices back down.
    What good has it done?
    The gap between rich and poor has never been greater. And it has been created by Labour and the banks, who have gotten away with the biggest fraud in history.
    If you have kids they will rent forever. Until you die and pass them your house. If you trade up or down, it will cost you more in exchange taxes, stamp duty. High house prices are good for no-one except the parasites in our society.

    I am not working for nothing. No capital, for another decade. I'm just not doing it.

    We want fairness. A chance to work for something we can call our own.

    If Labour had not purposefully manipulated house prices to rise, placing millions of us in debt slavery, we would have likely got onto the ladder over a decade ago, and paid off most of our mortgage.

    Stop this Blatant Theft.

    [Maybe the ex Students priced out of housing for over ten years, should join a march with the Students?]

    What we need are:

    Tax on BTL?
    Introduce a Land Levy Tax?
    Increase CGT on second properties?
    Build more social housing?
    etc etc

    I hope this gives you a clearer picture of what it is like after leaving Uni, and entering the working enviroment. Although this sounds like a harsh critique, I can assure you, I have not covered in detail, subjects such as 'Liar Loan's' in full.

    Whereby people earning £10k per annum were able to borrow enough money to buy literally tens of houses. And were encouraged to do so by the banks, with the full knowledge of the government. It was absolute insanity.


    Whatever your political affiliations. We are all in this together. Facing a lifetime of debt, that does not belong to us.

    Regards

    Daniel.
    Too long; didn't read.

    Hey would you like to buy my username off of me?

    £50 ono

    First to see will buy
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    What a load of opinionated garbage. There are about 3 facts in that letter and then you've just heavily exaggerated them to fit your own political mindset. The ironic thing is that, by writing this, you now think you're more intelligent than someone who may vote Labour. But really you're not more intelligent, because intelligent people would realise that using hindsight to berate political opponents is just a cop-out and shows absolutely no intelligence what so ever. I believe the industry term is 'political point scoring'. Yes, you come across as exactly the kind of person who has absolutely no cognitive ability to see why someone would vote Labour - believe me, more intelligent people than you and I do and always will vote Labour (and the same of course goes for other political parties).

    This is your opinion and nothing more, it's actually quite a boring, long-winded one as well. Don't wave it around as some kind of heralding breakthrough as to why people shouldn't vote Labour. If your opinion is that Labour are crap - fine, but don't make out that it is anything more than an opinion, it's not.
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    Most people buy as a couple not individualy
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    (Original post by The Next Left)
    What a load of opinionated garbage. There are about 3 facts in that letter and then you've just heavily exaggerated them to fit your own political mindset. The ironic thing is that, by writing this, you now think you're more intelligent than someone who may vote Labour. But really you're not more intelligent, because intelligent people would realise that using hindsight to berate political opponents is just a cop-out and shows absolutely no intelligence what so ever. I believe the industry term is 'political point scoring'. Yes, you come across as exactly the kind of person who has absolutely no cognitive ability to see why someone would vote Labour - believe me, more intelligent people than you and I do and always will vote Labour (and the same of course goes for other political parties).

    This is your opinion and nothing more, it's actually quite a boring, long-winded one as well. Don't wave it around as some kind of heralding breakthrough as to why people shouldn't vote Labour. If your opinion is that Labour are crap - fine, but don't make out that it is anything more than an opinion, it's not.

    So I think I am intelligent, yet I am not because I am using Hindsight to berate politicial opponents?

    What utter waffle. I'll just ignore that.

    I have been priced out of housing for over a decade, like millions of others and therefore have had ten years to figure out why, normal, average wage earners cannot afford a house. [Believe me, I would have liked to have been doing something else]

    The Fault lies Squarely with the utter incompetence of the Labour Party. As I have outlined above in detail.


    I notice your post, does nothing to deny that fact.


    [Is that one of the facts you are talking about, when you misleadingly, state that I have posted only 'about three facts'?] LOL.

    [The only 'opinion' I have posted is about Labour being economic fascists. Which I would be happy to expand upon if you would like me to?]

    The rest of this post IS factual.
    Such as the figures I have produced. The astronomical increases in House Prices whilst labour were in power.
    And the numbered points I have made.

    [P.S. Point 1 for instance is an excerpt from a letter sent by Lord Derwent to The Times. And the other points have been researched over a long time, and are all from legitimate journalistic sources. By many people on other forums dedicated to looking at house prices. The evidence is clear to see. Including Treasury documents, And the findings from the chairman of the House of Lords economics affairs committee. The Figures I have quoted are from the Nationwide Building Society, and the Council Of Mortgage Lenders. Etc Etc. And your response is to call it garbage? ]


    Those 'intelligent' people who vote Labour are not socialist's. [Blair specifically stated that New Labour were not socialists.] They are the Vested Interest groups. Like people who think Labour have made them rich, because their houses have tripled in value, or BTL'ers, or public sector workers, or who simply hate the Tories etc etc. Labour are the enemy of working class people. They are an ideologocally bankrupt party, who have utterly destroyed the dreams and aspirations of generations, and who are hoping if you are below a certain age, you will fall for their lies, spin and rhetoric.

    You strike me as the typical Labour party apologist, who will never admit to the unbelievable disaster that the Labour Cabinet were.


    On reflection I should have entitled this post:

    Priced out Of Housing? In Debt Slavery for the rest of your life? Blame Labour.

    Labour have no counter argument, for their incompetence, so they simply try to spitefully slur anyone who highlights their many disasters.

    These champagne socialists have robbed and raped us, they continue to deny the facts, and have not even apologised for it.
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    What age do people usually buy their first house?
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    I managed to get about half way through that... I think you should add a summary if you want some meaningful discussion.
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    (Original post by BambieWambie)
    What age do people usually buy their first house?
    According to the BBC the average age of the First Time Buyer is now 38 years old.

    But like most others in my position, I refuse to buy my first house until they return to their median long term average
    of 3 - 3.5x salary of a single individual.

    Which would mean a 60% reduction from peak 2007 prices. [Or the alternative, which would be Wage Inflation]
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    (Original post by Dan1el)
    [The following is an excerpt from a Letter I sent to a Lib Dem MP]


    [I graduated in 1996. However, I found this forum as I have been seriously considering post grad studies through the OU.]
    I've been in active employment in the private sector for over ten years in a consulting role for Engineering companies.]
    Did you seriously expect an MP to have time to read that? Just get to the point!!!

    Oh, you seemed to have missed interest on houses having decreased by half over the period - didn't you think that had anything to do with it?

    What was your point anyway?
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    (Original post by Dan1el)
    According to the BBC the average age of the First Time Buyer is now 38 years old.

    But like most others in my position, I refuse to buy my first house until they return to their median long term average
    of 3 - 3.5x salary of a single individual.

    Which would mean a 60% reduction from peak 2007 prices. [Or the alternative, which would be Wage Inflation]
    And return to the median long term average interest rate of 7-8%?
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    (Original post by Quady)
    1.] Did you seriously expect an MP to have time to read that? Just get to the point!!!

    2.] Oh, you seemed to have missed interest on houses having decreased by half over the period - didn't you think that had anything to do with it?

    3.] What was your point anyway?
    1.]You read it.

    2.] Its true that Brown kept Interest Rates far too low for too long. I agree. As I have already mentioned in my original post. One of his many mistakes.

    [Although I think you'll find the long term average median Interest Rates are more like 5%. According to the Bank Of England...]

    Record low interest rates has fuelled Cheap credit which in turn fuelled the housing boom, and liar loans, due to the tripartite system, and complete lack of regulation. [Again, as I have already posted!] But credit is only cheap if the Interest Rates stay low.....[Unfortunately IR are being stolen from Savers at the moment to pay for this toxic mortgage debt. As I already posted.]

    What was your point again exactly?

    3.] The points I have made are very clear. I suggest you re-read them. And answer them individually if you can.

    [Seems you do not like the points, hence your acerbic response.]

    Attack my post as much as you want. But It's all basically true. That is what Labour have done to us.


    Whats your political ideology? Free market Libertarian? Socialist? Democrat?

    If so, how can you morally and intellectually agree with what Labour have done?

    You cannot. Its impossible.

    [Even Tony Benn, the one person I have some respect for in Labour, has publicly stated that New Labour was a MISTAKE]

    [Unless of course, you are one of the people who were suckered into buying a house at the peak of the market, and you are panicing, with regards to the coming house price falls? If so, I feel for you, but point the finger of blame where it deserves to be pointed. If Not. Announce your interests then.]

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Try to imagine, after studying really hard, finally getting a good job. Imagine the well deserved pride you would feel!

    Then imagine working in a tough workplace enviroment. Long hard days. Day after day. Month after month.
    And at the end of each month, having to give away, a big pile of your cash to a landlord.
    Say, £600-£800 each and every month.
    [Thats a big wad of cash. Imagine what it looks like.]

    Month after Month. Year after year. For over ten years.......

    [Now imagine that your landlord lied to the bank to buy the house, which you are paying the mortgage for!
    It was fraud!
    You are paying for his retirement!
    Without being able to afford your own pension, or your own house.
    So you are working for nothing.
    This man lied about his income to borrow the money from the bank to buy the house! So he is a criminal.
    And you also know that he was allowed to do this, because of Labours enforced lack of regulation. [Tripartite System]
    [For years Brown encouraged this RISK based banking system. Look at his mansion house speeches to the bankers.]

    Then the bank that fraudulently lent your landlord the money for the house you are paying for goes bust. But the government bails out the bank with your money! [Theft] This policy, also means that house prices will remain overinflated, ensuring you will never be able to afford your own house.

    So as well as paying for his house, you are re-paying the bank which should never have lent him the money in the first place!

    Labour created, allowed, and encouraged this system. [And they do not even have the decency to admit to it, or apologise for it.]

    Imagine how despairing and angry you would feel then.

    Knowing its just sheer incompetence, and thievery which has stopped you from getting anywhere. All that money. Gone. After a while, believe me, you will wonder why you are even bothering to work. You are in indentured slavery.

    Its even worse for you, as you will also have tuition fees to pay as well.

    That is the state of the UK. There are millions of people in this position. And it is solely the fault of the Labour Party.

    Its completely indefensible.
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    (Original post by Dan1el)
    So I think I am intelligent, yet I am not because I am using Hindsight to berate politicial opponents?

    What utter waffle. I'll just ignore that.
    Yes, that does make you unintelligent. Any idiot can stand up 10 years down the line and say "they should have done this", "they should have done that". Did you feel as strongly about these policies at the time they were enacted? Did you predict the consequences you have outlined in your post? I think the answer is safely, no.

    (Original post by Dan1el)
    I have been priced out of housing for over a decade, like millions of others and therefore have had ten years to figure out why, normal, average wage earners cannot afford a house. [Believe me, I would have liked to have been doing something else]

    The Fault lies Squarely with the utter incompetence of the Labour Party. As I have outlined above in detail.


    I notice your post, does nothing to deny that fact.
    You see, you're doing it again. You're treating what you're saying as the be all and end all of everything and anyone who disagrees whith you is simply wrong because you cannot possibly be incorrect. My rub is not with you insulting the Labour Party, maybe they did cause this I don't know, what annoys me is your inability to see reason.


    (Original post by Dan1el)
    The rest of this post IS factual.
    Such as the figures I have produced. The astronomical increases in House Prices whilst labour were in power.
    And the numbered points I have made.

    [P.S. Point 1 for instance is an excerpt from a letter sent by Lord Derwent to The Times. And the other points have been researched over a long time, and are all from legitimate journalistic sources. By many people on other forums dedicated to looking at house prices. The evidence is clear to see. Including Treasury documents, And the findings from the chairman of the House of Lords economics affairs committee. The Figures I have quoted are from the Nationwide Building Society, and the Council Of Mortgage Lenders. Etc Etc. And your response is to call it garbage? ]
    No, what's garbage is that you are using one persons opinion and then heralding it as fact. You seem to think that by finding one source to support your views you are now utterly correct. I'll find some sources for you which state Gordon Brown practically saved the entire world economy, like this one from Paul Krugman (Nobel Prize winning economist). http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/13/op...13krugman.html

    This supports my opinion, but does that mean I go around saying that my opinion is fact, just because one high profile person supports my view? No, of course not. That would be stupid.


    (Original post by Dan1el)
    Those 'intelligent' people who vote Labour are not socialist's. [Blair specifically stated that New Labour were not socialists.] They are the Vested Interest groups. Like people who think Labour have made them rich, because their houses have tripled in value, or BTL'ers, or public sector workers, or who simply hate the Tories etc etc. Labour are the enemy of working class people. They are an ideologocally bankrupt party, who have utterly destroyed the dreams and aspirations of generations, and who are hoping if you are below a certain age, you will fall for their lies, spin and rhetoric.
    Again, most of this is your opinion - we just have to disagree.

    (Original post by Dan1el)
    You strike me as the typical Labour party apologist, who will never admit to the unbelievable disaster that the Labour Cabinet were.
    Not at all, I know Labour did bad things that I disagreed with. I also know they did some extremely good things that I agree with. Unlike you of course, who has no ability to see both sides because you just refuse to accept anything that goes against your views.


    (Original post by Dan1el)
    On reflection I should have entitled this post:

    Priced out Of Housing? In Debt Slavery for the rest of your life? Blame Labour.
    No, what you should have done is opened up the thread to more discussion. perhaps by entitling the post "Is it Labours fault we have been priced out of housing?" Instead you have just slammed down your opinion as fact and dictated to everyone you are absolutely correct and Labour are exactly the reason for inflated house prices. This is a place for discussion and debate.
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    (Original post by The Next Left)

    1.] Any idiot can stand up 10 years down the line and say "they should have done this", "they should have done that".
    Did you feel as strongly about these policies at the time they were enacted?
    Did you predict the consequences you have outlined in your post?

    I think the answer is safely, no.
    Just as any Idiot, can put words in your mouth?

    I have not stated that the 'Labour Party should have done this or that'

    I have instead stated what they did do. [After the fact.]


    I'm all for debate. But you seem to be intent on disagreeing with my way of making the points, rather than addressing the subject, or the points themselves.

    Your generation is absolutely correct to be furious at the debt which has been passed onto you. [As is mine] But you need to look closer at how and why this happened. And who is to blame here.
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    (Original post by Dan1el)
    Just as any Idiot, can put words in your mouth?

    I have not stated that the 'Labour Party should have done this or that'

    I have instead stated what they did do. [After the fact.]


    I'm all for debate. But you seem to be intent on disagreeing with my way of making the points, rather than addressing the subject, or the points themselves.

    Your generation is absolutely correct to be furious at the debt which has been passed onto you. [As is mine] But you need to look closer at how and why this happened. And who is to blame here.

    Like I've said, I'm not trying to debate the points you've brought up - the ones about housing could be correct for all I know. Yes I am arguing your way of never accepting other views.

    The debt passed on to me? Yes, that will come through me having to pay huge fees to make up the shortfall because of cuts to higher education. Personally, I don't see this as Labours fault - unless of course you believe the global economic crisis was Labours fault.
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    (Original post by The Next Left)
    Yes I am arguing your way of never accepting other views.
    I'm just probably a lot older and grumpier than you.
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    I'm afraid by the style of your writing and indeed your extreme views, you'll have done little else than make yourself look like a nutter by writing that letter.

    I can see the benefits of having a major piece of capital in the form of a home come one's later years if remortgaging and equity release become more common. Obviously to drop house pieces by, say, allowing even more development possibly on greenfield sites, would cause a lot of people who are paying mortgages now to enter into negative equity and indeed to lose a significant portion of money they thought they had put into a decent investment.
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    (Original post by L i b)
    1.] I'm afraid by the style of your writing and indeed your extreme views, you'll have done little else than make yourself look like a nutter by writing that letter.

    2.] I can see the benefits of having a major piece of capital in the form of a home come one's later years if remortgaging and equity release become more common. Obviously to drop house pieces by, say, allowing even more development possibly on greenfield sites, would cause a lot of people who are paying mortgages now to enter into negative equity and indeed to lose a significant portion of money they thought they had put into a decent investment.
    1.]That does not concern me. The bitterness and frustration is commonplace. Try putting yourself in that position for over a decade, and understanding the causes, and consequences, and the majority of people will/would very probably feel exactly the same way. [I hope it offers some small insight for those younger than myself, who will inevitably consider purchasing a house.]

    2.] You've skirted the moral points I have made, which remain unanswered by the Party who created this mess.
    But as far as those facing neg equity is concerned.
    Over half of the UK home-owning population, own their houses outright.

    In fact, only 7-8% of the UK Homeowning population of the UK, [those who got onto the housing ladder, in the last ten years, during Browns 'Fake' Boom would be facing negative equity should houses lose 50% off their 'value.']
    Yes, they would lose tens of thousands of pounds off the value of their houses. [Equally, Just as us renters have already been forced to waste tens of thousands of pounds.] That sounds like a fair balance to me.

    If they could not afford the repayments, they should never have taken out the loans!

    Why should our money be stolen, via capping Interest Rates, QE, mortgage relief to pay for their houses?

    Its ridiculos! Theft! Morally bankrupt Policies implemented by Labour.

    [In effect what the bailouts allowed them to do, was bribe the homeowners, to vote for them, with our money!]

    [At the peak of its lending. After they were acquired by Lloyds, HBOS, the biggest mortgage lender in the country, admitted that up to 80% of their loans were so called 'Liar Loans'
    Liar Loans and mortgage fraud was seriously epidemic. It was reported as far back as 2003, by the BBC Money programme, but the government did nothing about it!
    The LTV [Loan to Value Ratio] of those 'liar loan' houses has been suppressed by Lloyds, so we do not know how many of those properties were so called 'toxic properties'
    Or if people would be able to pay for them, if IR were to rise. Obviously the MPC and Mervyn King dont think so, and would rather see our money be paid to the bankers as huge bonuses! The banks may only be paying 0.5% Interest on your savings. The lowest in History. But they are still making a lot more than that with your money!
    Unbelievably, Gordon Brown, after being the darling of the bankers, for years, knighted the ex boss of HBOS, who was responsible for this massive destructive 'Liar Loan' fraud! Sir James Crosby, was made the chairman of the FSA by Brown!! Until it became clear that HBOS were going broke, when Crosby was forced to resign from the FSA on his £10 million a year pension!!! And Brown tried to distance himself from his pals, the bankers. You could not make it up.]


    Many suspect that the coalition, having inherited the banks, are now attempting to engineer a soft bottom in the housing market. Maybe a 30% drop. Hopefully the bond market will upset their plans. And we will see a 60% fall back to the long term average median affordability of 3 -3.5x salary

    But bear in mind that Labour purposefully set the system up this way, and completely ignored anyone who questioned the stinking unfairness and criminality of it.

    [Although, many of us are still waiting for our government bailout, for the tens upon tens of thousands of pounds we have been forced to waste in rent!]
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    (Original post by Dan1el)
    1) You read it.

    2) Its true that Brown kept Interest Rates far too low for too long. I agree. As I have already mentioned in my original post. One of his many mistakes.

    [Although I think you'll find the long term average median Interest Rates are more like 5%. According to the Bank Of England...]

    3) Record low interest rates has fuelled Cheap credit which in turn fuelled the housing boom, and liar loans, due to the tripartite system, and complete lack of regulation. [Again, as I have already posted!] But credit is only cheap if the Interest Rates stay low.....[Unfortunately IR are being stolen from Savers at the moment to pay for this toxic mortgage debt. As I already posted.]

    What was your point again exactly?

    4) The points I have made are very clear. I suggest you re-read them. And answer them individually if you can.

    [Seems you do not like the points, hence your acerbic response.]

    5) Attack my post as much as you want. But It's all basically true. That is what Labour have done to us.


    6) Whats your political ideology? Free market Libertarian? Socialist? Democrat?

    7) If so, how can you morally and intellectually agree with what Labour have done?

    You cannot. Its impossible.

    8) [Even Tony Benn, the one person I have some respect for in Labour, has publicly stated that New Labour was a MISTAKE]

    9) [Unless of course, you are one of the people who were suckered into buying a house at the peak of the market, and you are panicing, with regards to the coming house price falls? If so, I feel for you, but point the finger of blame where it deserves to be pointed. If Not. Announce your interests then.]

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    10) Try to imagine, after studying really hard, finally getting a good job. Imagine the well deserved pride you would feel!

    Then imagine working in a tough workplace enviroment. Long hard days. Day after day. Month after month.
    And at the end of each month, having to give away, a big pile of your cash to a landlord.
    Say, £600-£800 each and every month.
    [Thats a big wad of cash. Imagine what it looks like.]

    Month after Month. Year after year. For over ten years.......

    [Now imagine that your landlord lied to the bank to buy the house, which you are paying the mortgage for!
    It was fraud!
    You are paying for his retirement!
    Without being able to afford your own pension, or your own house.
    So you are working for nothing.
    This man lied about his income to borrow the money from the bank to buy the house! So he is a criminal.
    And you also know that he was allowed to do this, because of Labours enforced lack of regulation. [Tripartite System]
    [For years Brown encouraged this RISK based banking system. Look at his mansion house speeches to the bankers.]

    11) Then the bank that fraudulently lent your landlord the money for the house you are paying for goes bust. But the government bails out the bank with your money! [Theft] This policy, also means that house prices will remain overinflated, ensuring you will never be able to afford your own house.

    So as well as paying for his house, you are re-paying the bank which should never have lent him the money in the first place!

    12) Labour created, allowed, and encouraged this system. [And they do not even have the decency to admit to it, or apologise for it.]

    Imagine how despairing and angry you would feel then.

    Knowing its just sheer incompetence, and thievery which has stopped you from getting anywhere. All that money. Gone. After a while, believe me, you will wonder why you are even bothering to work. You are in indentured slavery.

    13) Its even worse for you, as you will also have tuition fees to pay as well.

    14) That is the state of the UK. There are millions of people in this position. And it is solely the fault of the Labour Party.

    Its completely indefensible.
    Heres a lot of writting which will make you not be bothered to read and hence not reply - a similar writting style you employed when writting to your MP.

    1) No, I skimmed it (you later say I should read what you wrote, highlighting you knew I hadn't, as I said)

    2) Brown did not have control of monetary policy, do you mean he should have taken back control and under what basis?

    3) So why didn't you just say that in your letter? Because everyones knows that already(?) - man there have been documentaries and books a-plenty since '07, do you think your MP doesn't know that?

    So are you proposing Base Rate should be say 5%? Savers are doing pretty well, the spread between Base Rate and savings rates has increased since the crisis.

    4) I didn't read it (I even told you I hadn't), you don't have a point you have a list of information which everyone knows with a series of dodgy conclusions (some reasonable ones but some dodgy)

    5) So you don't think Greenspan/the USA had anything to do with this? Or are you calling for us to decouple trade (and should have done) with other countries so we aren't effected but other countries economic problems? Or do you think the Labour Party pulled the USA, Japan and the Eurozone into recession.

    6) errmmmmmmm pragmatist? I don't fit into an idology, none of us do, they are models and we are all on a spectrum. I don't believe in a free market or in socalism because neither in practise achieves their aims.

    7) Because they were democractically elected and the population actuvely wanted them to carry out the economic decisions they made (unlike the wars, ID cards ect) the economic position had a mandate from the people and people were happy until it fell apart. Thats how I justify it.

    Also as previously pointed out, the crisis started in the US, if the US hadn't blown up we would have had a slow down, a bit more unemployment but nothing like what we have seen.

    8) Why don't you have any respect for Jeremy Corbyn?

    9) No, why would I have bought a house in a bubble? That would have been stupid, although it was equally stupid not to have done, I'd have done alright. Might interest is I don't like people talking rubbish.

    I mean why on earth did you say:
    (Original post by Dan1el)
    Not one MP represented the average wage earner.
    You clearly didn't know this guy:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Nellist
    (although you said you don't respect him as hes in the Labour party but isn't Benn)

    How does he not represent 'the average wage earner? Surely you just spouted junk without any basis in fact?

    Anyway I'll finish this latter, gotta go for now EDIT: Back

    10) Shouldn't you have got a better job? That isn't much cash - a salary of what £7,500 to £11,000. They shouldn't choose to give a big wad to a landlord. Tenants drive up rental yields by offering to pay big wads. How would the FSA being part of the BoE have stopped such mortgages being given? What changed which meant banks were allowed to accept self-cert? (clue: nothing)

    11) You realise that taxpayers contributed nothing to the bank bailour right?

    12) What did they change that allowed it? Just saying 'tripartite system' doesn't really cut it does it, otherwise you could blame the tripartite system for the budget deficit. What did Labour actually do which made this happen (baring in mind the Republicans made the same thing happen on a larger/worse scale in the USA).

    13) Errrrrrrrrr only students who graduated before 2000 (ie on the Conservatives loan scheme) would be paying back student loans with a salary of £11k so that statement didn't work at all.

    14) So people weren't in that position in 1997? Ever listened to Chumbawumba (particularly their '97 song 'drip, drip, drip' about landlords)? Since when could someone on under £11,000 buy a house?

    I look forward to you reading this and your response to the points raised.
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    (Original post by Quady)
    What was your point anyway?

    In 1997, according to the Office of National Statistics, the national average wage was £16,666.
    According to the Nationwide Building Society the Average House price in 1997 was £55k.
    £16,666/£55,000 = 3.3x salary [mortgage]

    * The Average First Timer Buyer mortgage in 1997 was just £41.5k [CML]

    By 2007, at the peak of the boom [according to the Office of National Statistics] the national average wage had risen to £23.5k
    The Average House Price in 2007 was £185k.
    £185,000/£23.5k = 7.8x salary [mortgage]

    Conclusion:
    The national average salary in the UK has risen by around £6K from 1997 to 2007 as house prices have more than trebled.

    The Average house price would need to fall by around 60% in value, from its peak 2007 valuation, to return to historically acceptable inflationary affordability of 3 – 3.5x salary
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    1.] Without the bank bailouts, house prices would have crashed by 60% plus.
    So the only reason they have not crashed is because of Government theft of our taxes and QE.
    So the theft of the future generations taxes, and the devaluation of the pound in our pockets, via QE, to pay for this toxic mortgage debt, Is In effect, forcing us to pay for others houses, whilst keeping house prices massively overinflated, ensuring we can never afford our own house. A debt transfer has taken place.


    2.] Try to imagine, after studying really hard, finally getting a good job. Imagine the well deserved pride you would feel!

    Then imagine working in a tough workplace enviroment. Long hard days. Day after day. Month after month.
    And at the end of each month, having to give away, a big pile of your cash to a landlord.
    Say, £600-£800 each and every month.
    [Thats a big wad of cash. Imagine what it looks like.]

    Month after Month. Year after year. For over ten years.......

    [Now imagine that your landlord lied to the bank to buy the house, which you are paying the mortgage for!
    It was fraud!
    You are paying for his retirement!
    Without being able to afford your own pension, or your own house.
    So you are working for nothing.
    This man lied about his income to borrow the money from the bank to buy the house! So he is a criminal.
    And you also know that he was allowed to do this, because of Labours enforced lack of regulation. [Tripartite System]
    [For years Brown encouraged this RISK based banking system. Look at his mansion house speeches to the bankers.]

    Then the bank that fraudulently lent your landlord the money for the house you are paying for goes bust. But the government bails out the bank with your money! [Theft] This policy, also means that house prices will remain overinflated, ensuring you will never be able to afford your own house.

    So as well as paying for his house, you are re-paying the bank which should never have lent him the money in the first place!

    Labour created, allowed, and encouraged this system. [And they do not even have the decency to admit to it, or apologise for it.]

    Imagine how despairing and angry you would feel then.

    Knowing its just sheer incompetence, and thievery which has stopped you from getting anywhere. All that money. Gone. After a while, believe me, you will wonder why you are even bothering to work. You are in indentured slavery.

    Its even worse for you, as you will also have tuition fees to pay as well.

    That is the state of the UK. There are millions of people in this position. And it is solely the fault of the Labour Party.

    Its completely indefensible.
 
 
 
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