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    (Original post by Howard)
    All of these things; orphans with aids in South Africa, people living in mud huts in the Gambia, child soldiers in Sierra Leone, starvation in Ethiopia, 6 year old girls being circumstized in the Sudan (I could go on), child slavery on the Ivory Coast, have absolutely nothing to do with Africa once being under English/German/Durch/French control.

    And, if the US/UK ever did "perform a proper mission" in Africa people like you would be crying into your beer "******* colonialists........why can't they leave Africa alone.......*sniffle sniffle boo hoo hoo*"

    Let's face it. Whatever the US does is wrong isn't it? It intervenes and it's an evil imperial empire. It sit's on it's hands and it's pursuing a policy of selfish isolationism.
    Oh yes, there are strong connections... maybe not the mudhut, that is just an example of poverty. Admit that. But the poverty only is poverty if you compare it to a better standard of living. Our values of what a good life, wellbeing or wealth are do not necessarily apply to African people, and even less did they before colonialism.
    There were tribal wars, yes, said already hundred times. But there were no child soldiers, at least not paid or forced ones, and they certainly did not have machine guns. That is why the tribal wars have never even nearly reached the dimension of the modern wars (e.g. Angola: government and rebel force, one paid by the states, one by russia. millions of deaths, destroyed country).

    Overpopulation (--> starvation) is a syndrome that has not existed before, too. Desertification as well. The African population stayed on a constant level and is only rising immensely since the colonialist times.

    I never cried about any mission in Africa. What happened was mostly good. But normally the soldiers leave the country as soon as the media leave and the same fighting starts again (--> Congo).
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    (Original post by vienna95)
    yes, and "making people equal" is viewed by some as unfair. hence my reference to socialism.



    i was thinking more along the lines of Muslim civilisation being inferior to Western ones. of course there were times when Muslim states were ahead of their Western counterparts but this has changed. before you ask i base this on the principles of human development, exploration and invention, both materially,morally, economically and politically.



    im interested to see how the centuries of struggle by European Christendom can be lumped together with a relatively infantile American and Israel existance that has by comparison inflicted no harm on this world.
    Quite honestly, on your theory of muslim societies being "inferior" I just do not react. That much of cultural intolerance and arrogance has to be reached...

    Americans, no harm? Chile, Guatemala, Honduras, Argentina, Nicaragua.
    Eastern Timor, Vietnam, Korea.

    Israel, no harm? Libanon, Palestine; concentration camps (for refugees), settling on land of the palestininans...

    I told you I did not want to sit the whole night
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    (Original post by vienna95)
    how can 'whites' (racist but ill let it go) wonder? because we as a civilisation have moved on and are morally disturbed to see such primitive and uncivilised society.
    Not racist, in Africa there are whites and blacks, both terms understood as politically correct.
    Yes, we have moved into their land... or is it ours???? Zimbabwe?

    "primitive", "uncivilised". I said everything about your attitude towards muslims, must stop repeating stuff
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    (Original post by ben2111)
    Quite honestly, on your theory of muslim societies being "inferior" I just do not react. That much of cultural intolerance and arrogance has to be reached...
    what has culture got to do with it?

    Americans, no harm? Chile, Guatemala, Honduras, Argentina, Nicaragua.
    Eastern Timor, Vietnam, Korea.

    Israel, no harm? Libanon, Palestine; concentration camps (for refugees), settling on land of the palestininans...
    as i said, comparably little damage. you are aware of that arent you? youve got all night nonetheless.
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    (Original post by JSM)
    still mine was the official reason, this is just to cover up their flaw
    You are right, but I think you would agree that the Americans tend to invade places where they have a concrete interest.
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    (Original post by ben2111)
    You are right, but I think you would agree that the Americans tend to invade places where they have a concrete interest.
    well so has all armed intervention been where anyone has had a concrete interest
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    (Original post by vienna95)
    what has culture got to do with it?



    as i said, comparably little damage. you are aware of that arent you? youve got all night nonetheless.
    You are usually talking about muslim culture and muslim societies as the same thing, so the question is not exactly smart. And anyway, for muslims culture and society is pretty much the same because the culture gives exact rules for the society. We have discussed this already
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    (Original post by ben2111)
    "primitive", "uncivilised". I said everything about your attitude towards muslims, must stop repeating stuff
    you must.
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    (Original post by JSM)
    well so has all armed intervention been where anyone has had a concrete interest
    No, the peace troups by the UN do not. That is their purpose. The Americans could just support these troups better and would not have to worry about their international rep. Besides that, I was actually not right: that the AMericans intervened in WW II was the last truely political action without concrete interests, at least in the beginning.
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    (Original post by vienna95)
    as i said, comparably little damage. you are aware of that arent you? youve got all night nonetheless.
    who has inflicted more damage, maybe except the Germans?
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    (Original post by ben2111)
    You are usually talking about muslim culture and muslim societies as the same thing,
    i usually get dressed before breakfast, what has that got to do with the argument?

    so the question is not exactly smart.
    no, but id still appreciate an answer

    And anyway, for muslims culture and society is pretty much the same because the culture gives exact rules for the society.
    no. culture is a consequence of society. the current muslim culture of hatred and fundamentalism is a consequence of a society that feels threatened. and for good reason.

    We have discussed this already
    discussed what? your inability to answer the question? islam being in a period of volatility?
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    (Original post by ben2111)
    who has inflicted more damage, maybe except the Germans?
    since 2000BC? erm...ill put a list together.
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    (Original post by vienna95)
    i usually get dressed before breakfast, what has that got to do with the argument?



    no, but id still appreciate an answer



    no. culture is a consequence of society. the current muslim culture of hatred and fundamentalism is a consequence of a society that feels threatened. and for good reason.



    discussed what? your inability to answer the question? islam being in a period of volatility?
    OH MY GOD don´t play dumb
    we were talking about society, I mentioned culture, you asked why. Come on that is not so difficult

    Culture is NOT a consequence of society! There were a lot of cultures who form a society (at least in our countries), it cannot be the other way round.

    P.S. Serious question: how many muslims do you know? How many of them are full of hatred? How many are fundamental?

    Do you think you are full of hatred?
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    (Original post by vienna95)
    since 2000BC? erm...ill put a list together.
    Well, lets say since the time I listed - 1800, cause USA /Israel did not exist
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    (Original post by ben2111)
    No, the peace troups by the UN do not. That is their purpose. The Americans could just support these troups better and would not have to worry about their international rep. Besides that, I was actually not right: that the AMericans intervened in WW II was the last truely political action without concrete interests, at least in the beginning.
    the americans intervene to protect a peoples right to exist.

    germany
    kosovo
    israel
    kuwait.
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    (Original post by ben2111)
    Well, lets say since the time I listed - 1800, cause USA /Israel did not exist
    what has that got to with anything? comparable is comparable.
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    (Original post by ben2111)
    OH MY GOD don´t play dumb
    we were talking about society, I mentioned culture, you asked why. Come on that is not so difficult
    no it isnt. which is why i was wondering why you didnt answer.

    Culture is NOT a consequence of society! There were a lot of cultures who form a society (at least in our countries), it cannot be the other way round.
    can i have an example of this rather wacky manifestation?
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    (Original post by vienna95)
    the americans intervene to protect a peoples right to exist.

    germany
    kosovo
    israel
    kuwait.
    Impressive list.... don´t be rediculous, you do not really think the invaded Kuwait cause they were so sympathetic with some poor Kuwaitis being killed by saddam

    Germany I admit, but the first thing they did afterwards was put missiles into the whole of Germany to have a 24-hour defence in an attack scenario

    israel??? Well they stuff them with weapons and backup everything. I do not call the peaceful intervention

    so where are the evil states worse than what I listed?
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    (Original post by vienna95)
    can i have an example of this rather wacky manifestation?
    Germany: around 30 different tiny states before 1870, totally differnet cultures and even languages. United under the interests of a SOCIETY to defend against / attack the French. Since then oe country and still somebody from Hamburg does not understand somebody from Munich, take my word for it.
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    (Original post by ben2111)
    Impressive list.... don´t be rediculous, you do not really think the invaded Kuwait cause they were so sympathetic with some poor Kuwaitis being killed by saddam
    mr compassion.


    Germany I admit, but the first thing they did afterwards was put missiles into the whole of Germany to have a 24-hour defence in an attack scenario
    mr realistic

    israel??? Well they stuff them with weapons and backup everything. I do not call the peaceful intervention
    mr impartial

    so where are the evil states worse than what I listed?
    mr quick
 
 
 
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