descrimination and the art of public school bashing Watch

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quinnbrakes
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#1
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I realise that this is a fairly common theme on these boards and I apologuise to anyone who's heard the arguments over and over again but i think i need to get this off my chest.

I went to a public school. Before that i went to a prep school. Infact ive been boarding since i was seven and im really tired of having to say sorry about it.

The amount of abuse ive gotten over the years is completely unreal. The way people change around you as soon as you let slip you go to a public school. The guarded look in their eyes as they wait for you to say something arrogant. You might as well say u condone genocide. When i was asked while in cambridge for my interview i was made to feel like a complete monster.

Its even in college prospectuses. They boast about the highest number of state school applicants and link this with diversity and an exciting atmosphere. Surely private schools are more diverse as students dont necessarily come from a small geographic area? One of my best friends was on a state sponsorred scholarship from Thailand, two others were Russian. Most of my closest friends are 'public school boys' and the way the term is used you would think we were war criminals.

Then there is the issue of spoon feeding. I was never spoon fed anything in my life. I worked bloody hard to get my grades and i find it offensive that anyone should demean that by saying i simply bought them. I accept that some state schools are at a disadvantage in this area but i object to the scorn that is poured on my and others acheivements. The days of guareenteed places are long gone.

Infact my school officially advised students not to apply to Bristol or Kings, Cambridge because they would be descriminated against. Whether this is justified is arguable but the fact that they
do actually advise this must say something.

Im sorry but some of you on these boards should re read what you have said and try and think of it from the other side for a change.
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fred86
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hey, I haven't said anything like that but I now have a lot of respect for u public schoolers! One of my best mates goes to one and he actually is arrogant (but note he's still my best mate!) and it was the place that turned him like that. However I guess they're all different. Try not to take it to heart I got to one of the worst schools in Shefiield! Anyways what A-Levels / unis u got?
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as1
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The argument, I believe, lies in the fact that Public Schools have a much greater number of facilities/links and resources due to an increase in money that state schools simply do not have.

You do not know how little some state schools have. You may have worked hard, like alot of students, but some students in state schools can work as hard as they'd like and still will not get their grades. Many state schools in inner cities suffer from immense bullying and highly inadequate teaching.

The fact of the matter is that you are very privlidged and whilst you do not deserve a majority of the banter (because nobody does, esp. when it is not their fault that they've been privlidged - after all, we'd all want the most if we could get it), you must be able to see where the argument/problem comes from.

AS
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quinnbrakes
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I can see why see where the arguments come from. I am priviliged and i know that im lucky. But still all im asking is that people stop and think about what they are saying.

You constantly hear crass offensive remarks even on these boards. The tarquin/jimmy thread is a case in point. The orginal posting was bad enough and illustrates the kind of blind ignorant descrimination i have faced most of my life but the first reply really is stunning. That a state school pupill with 3a's should be seen as 'obviously' more intelligent than a public school boy with 3a's? What does the poor bloke have to do get better than a's?
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hildabeast
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(Original post by quinnbrakes)
I can see why see where the arguments come from. I am priviliged and i know that im lucky. But still all im asking is that people stop and think about what they are saying.

You constantly hear crass offensive remarks even on these boards. The tarquin/jimmy thread is a case in point. The orginal posting was bad enough and illustrates the kind of blind ignorant descrimination i have faced most of my life but the first reply really is stunning. That a state school pupill with 3a's should be seen as 'obviously' more intelligent than a public school boy with 3a's? What does the poor bloke have to do get better than a's?
I agree, that's badly put. It's just that someone who gets AAB from a school where AAB is the norm can be said not to have performed as spectacularly as someone who gets AAB from a school where the vast majority of pupils drop out at 16 and where there is an element of anti-learning ethos in the community in which the student lives.

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quinnbrakes
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But than again it could equally be the other way around. The first chap could have been predicted straight C's but worked his little heart out to get those grades. Perhaps he was only at the school on a sport scholarship. On the other hand the other student could be the daughter of two left wing academics who really couldnt be arsed and completely winged it.

Individual situations are too mind bogglingly diverse to make sweeping generalisations. Should there be a sliding scale made up from the league tables telling you just how much your grades are worth in real terms? The whole things ridiculas.
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J.S.
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(Original post by quinnbrakes)
But than again it could equally be the other way around. The first chap could have been predicted straight C's but worked his little heart out to get those grades. Perhaps he was only at the school on a sport scholarship. On the other hand the other student could be the daughter of two left wing academics who really couldnt be arsed and completely winged it.

Individual situations are too mind bogglingly diverse to make sweeping generalisations. Should there be a sliding scale made up from the league tables telling you just how much your grades are worth in real terms? The whole things ridiculas.

Are you implying that left wing academics are more likely to completely 'wing it' and not be 'arsed'? Seems to be a mind boggling generalisation
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quinnbrakes
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No. The left wing academic bit was to show that some people come from an academically strong family but dont go to private school due to moral objections.

How you could have read that into what i said i dont know. Feels like you're just being obtuse.
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J.S.
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(Original post by quinnbrakes)
No. The left wing academic bit was to show that some people come from an academically strong family but dont go to private school due to moral objections.

How you could have read that into what i said i dont know. Feels like you're just being obtuse.


ohhh you're just annoyed because people don't take public school boys seriously...hey, it's not my fault.
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J.S.
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(Original post by J.S.)
ohhh you're just annoyed because people don't take public school boys seriously...hey, it's not my fault.
Incidentally, I was joking. See, what you must understand is that you're pointing out exceptions. As Hildabeast argued the case, that the achievements of someone from a deprived school, where students are more likely to end up at prison than university *generally* exceed those of the public school type who has had all the resources available, including motivation that comes out of seeing your peers doing so well.
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as1
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neildm raised a good point. An awlful lot of public school students really dislike state school students - there is alot of prejudice against them and has been for a number of years.

Also, look at Oxbirdge. Just over half of Oxbirdge is state school (and I mean 'just', like 52% or something), which is shocking when you consider that private schools take up only 15% (if that) of UK schooling. Is it that those that pay money for their education are more intelligent? No. It is that private school students generally have better resources, teachers help and facilities. They are protected more than state school students and life a privlidged life. It is those who do not realise that and complain about prejudice being thrown their way that often create a bad name for public schools.

Spoon-fed doesn't just mean that you are given all the right answers! It means having the resources there at hand - something that you don't have to work for. This isn't always available for state school students.

State school students have a much more varied experience of education than private school students because state schools do not have the money to offer the resources that private schools can - hence why prospectus' claim to offer diversity through state school students.

Finally, the reason why prospectus' are proud of having state school students is because state school students generally fear going to colleges/universities that are full of private school students who, majoritively speaking (because their education is paid for) are rich. Thus, they fear not fitting it, not having enough money, not being 'good enough' for private school people. By promoting that there are state-school students, the institution is helping to attract more state school applicants. It goes both ways you know! Discrimination comes from all areas of society.

This is a difficult debate because so many generalisations have to be made in order to construct arguments. I don't know what to say! Of course discrimination is unfair, but then so is privildged students getting places at better universities because they can afford a top-notch education!
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Ensocopier
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Thats not necessarily true. I don't know if this has already been mentioned, but the reason probably is that Privately educated people are more clever. They have had to sit an entrance exam at 11 to get in and therefore Private schools can select the best students, regardless of how much money they have. I know lots of people at my school rely on bursaries and scholarships etc to survive.
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quinnbrakes
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I'm sorry that you've had to face 'blind ignorant dIscrimination' for most of your life, I guess you'll just have to learn to live with it. The proportion of state schoolers that discriminate against private schoolers is roughly equal to those vice versa, whether you realise it or not. It may not strike you immediately because private schoolers comprise of less than 15% of school students.

I do suggest that you get over it. You're not alone in being discriminated against, pretty much everyone is for one reason or the other.

P.S.: When your school advised you against applying to certain institutions, for your information, these were institutions whose private school bodies comprise of more than double the nationwide percentage of privately schooled students.
'this must say something', you say. Yes, it says that private schools sell private education to parents of students like yourself as an almost guaranteed route to getting into a top 10 university, i.e. it gives privately schooled students a distinct advantage over state schooled students. If this becomes less the case, they have their business at risk. Hence to make a political statement to change these institution's policies, they advise students against applying to those places.

I really think you should review what you have just said. 'I do suggest that you get over it. You're not alone in being discriminated against'. Just try substituting 'public school boy' with ethnic minority or a jewish pupil. Because descrimintation is rife in society it's ok? I should just shut up and deal with it?

It seems that you are taking a particulary un-sympathetic line because through no action of my own i was born into a reasonably wealthy family. How is descriminating against me somehow more acceptable than against anyone else?

Concerning the almost 'guaranteed route to getting into a top 10 university' i think you are being particulary unfair. Many private schools are academically selective enough that most of their students would go to these universities anyway. They are much more likely to 'sell' themselves on their extra curricular activites and all round education.

Also many famous public schools perform far worse than state grammer schools yet the emphasis is always on the high fees of such schools. Have you ever noticed how newspapers never leave out just how much is paid? They are protrayed as somehow corrupt. Rich cut throat parents buying their children an undeserved future at the expense of more derserving state school pupills.

If private schools didnt exist would pupils from state grammers in more wealthy areas face the same problems that privatley educated people face today?
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J.S.
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(Original post by Ensocopier)
Thats not necessarily true. I don't know if this has already been mentioned, but the reason probably is that Privately educated people are more clever. They have had to sit an entrance exam at 11 to get in and therefore Private schools can select the best students, regardless of how much money they have. I know lots of people at my school rely on bursaries and scholarships etc to survive.


They do better because prior to the age of 11 they have had better resources too. Their parents are more likely to be better educated and the like. Affluence carries with it many advantages. This isn't a criticism towards priv. school students though, any parent would want the best for their children. It’s entirely understandable, I wouldn’t wish a rock bottom comprehensive upon anyone! However, it's not as simple as you make out, it's not just a case of some people being 'clever' and others not. There are people who face a great deal of difficulty, broken homes, abuse, dire poverty; the last thing on such a students mind is going to be entrance exams!

In support of priv/public school students, I will say that getting into Oxbridge, to use an example, is still an excellent achievement. I shall not make the unfounded assumption (that many do make) that Eton necessarily entails Oxbridge, I realise that it’s something like 1/5 that eventually do attain entry. However, my point is that if someone from a failing comprehensive school can do it, at a school where the GCSE pass rate is a single digit figure, then that's exceptional, an outstanding achievement. In praising the achievements of such a student, I suppose what it does is take the gloss off a similar end result achieved by an Etonian.
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username3134
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(Original post by Ensocopier)
Thats not necessarily true. I don't know if this has already been mentioned, but the reason probably is that Privately educated people are more clever.
What an arrogant prat! Who do you think you are? Are you claiming that you and your acquaintances at your private school, are cleverer than those at state schools, simply because they go to a private school?! You may have had to sit an exam at age 11, but that was an oppurtunity the vast majority of us never had! There are only a very small number of scholarships and bursaries avaliable, so don't even begin to suggest that the most able students can enjoy a private education can do so if they so wish. I seriously doubt whether someone with a such short-sighted narrow-minded look on life can claim to be 'clever' than the majority of state-educated people.

Are people who attend private schools more naturally disposed to intelligence than the rest of us? Of course not! It's just your upbringing is more conducive to achievement than most people's.
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Ensocopier
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(Original post by savvy10)
What an arrogant prat! Who do you think you are? Are you claiming that you and your acquaintances at your private school, are cleverer than those at state schools, simply because they go to a private school?! You may have had to sit an exam at age 11, but that was an oppurtunity the vast majority of us never had! There are only a very small number of scholarships and bursaries avaliable, so don't even begin to suggest that the most able students can enjoy a private education can do so if they so wish. I seriously doubt whether someone with a such short-sighted narrow-minded look on life can claim to be 'clever' than the majority of state-educated people.

Are people who attend private schools more naturally disposed to intelligence than the rest of us? Of course not! It's just your upbringing is more conducive to achievement than most people's.
Ok, I phrased that very badly. Of course I don't mean that every person at a private school is cleaver than every person at a state school. However, because private schools are selective, on average intellegence there is higher. As a result, they get more people into Oxbridge etc.
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quinnbrakes
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I am really sorry but i dont think we're reading the same post. You labelled me an 'arrogant prat' before you have even tried to understand what my veiws really are. Who do you think you are? From your unfounded tirade it appears you have brought nothing but your own prejudices to the debate.

I have never said that me or my friends are cleverer than state educated pupils simply beacause i do not believe it is true.

I stated that the pupills of some highely academicly selective schools (St Pauls, Winchester and the like) can be expected to go to top ten universities because they have already proved themselves at a high academic level.

I made no referrence to their comparative rating with state school pupils and have no intention of doing so.
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quinnbrakes
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soz savy10 just realised that was aimed at someone else and not my post.
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quinnbrakes
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I will do some looking up to get you some answers to some of your first questions but while im on the site ill have a stab at the last point.

No I would not agree. If they both got 3a's you cant possibly make such a generalisation because there is no room for the privately educated pupil to perform at a higher standard.

By saying 'at least as able' you're really saying not worse. Yet many thousands of people get straight a's every year are you saying there is no difference in this group?

A better and more interesting example would be of two pupils with ABB.
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meepmeep
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(Original post by quinnbrakes)
I will do some looking up to get you some answers to some of your first questions but while im on the site ill have a stab at the last point.

No I would not agree. If they both got 3a's you cant possibly make such a generalisation because there is no room for the privately educated pupil to perform at a higher standard.

By saying 'at least as able' you're really saying not worse. Yet many thousands of people get straight a's every year are you saying there is no difference in this group?

A better and more interesting example would be of two pupils with ABB.
I suppose this is the point where module marks come into the equation as well for places such as Cambridge and Oxford, although this is a bit of a moot point when a high emphasis is placed on the interview where the can "test" for intelligence more.

However, given two identical students, I'd have to award preference to the state school pupil for the reasons stated above - that the private school pupil has had a more privaledged education (otherwise, what on earth are they paying for?).
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