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descrimination and the art of public school bashing
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RedCat6
As a teacher who has experienced both systems I certainly can deny that someone who gets all As in one system is more intelligent than someone who gets all As in another. They are exactly the same, they both possess the ability to get all As.
RedCat
RedCat
This is a silly statement if ever there was one. Everyone who gets straight As is not of the same ability as every other straight A holder! As you yourself point out later some will have to work harder than others to get their grades because they have less natural ability. Top universities are trying to select those of the highest natural ability coupled with a willingness to work hard.
It is patently obvious that if you go to a crappy school and still
manage to achieve high grades you are demonstrating these qualities, particularly if you come from a poor background where perhaps your parents are not well educated and you don't have much in the way of facilities at home like the internet, lots of books in the house etc.
Also you have not answered House Badgers excellent point:
Why do people send their kids to private school (at great expense) unless its to give them an advantage over state school applicants? Especially, I myself add, as nearly all the people who send their kids to private school actually live in quite good areas where the state schools are not too bad at all!
Finally I would like to say that it is YOU who is the bigot, with your arrogant attitude that because you have taught in both private and state schools your opinions are somehow more valid than everyone else's!
PS I apologise for thinking you were a man Mrs Red Cat!
smaug
Well said House Badger! 
RedCat6 is biased because he has sent his child to private school, and just like the people who go to private school, he is angry to think that the advantage they have bought might be whittled away if a policy of giving lower offers to state school people becomes widespread!
It would be quite funny actually, loads of rich kids from posh schools will start going to inner city comps in the sixth form and getting private tutors cos they cant cope !
RedCat6 is biased because he has sent his child to private school, and just like the people who go to private school, he is angry to think that the advantage they have bought might be whittled away if a policy of giving lower offers to state school people becomes widespread!
It would be quite funny actually, loads of rich kids from posh schools will start going to inner city comps in the sixth form and getting private tutors cos they cant cope !
Wouldn't you think though, that if a state school pupil got in with a lower offer than a private pupil, they'd be more worried about whether they were really up to standard, or if they were just being let in so that the numbers were right?
People send their kids to private schools not as a vindictive effort to give them an advantage over state schoolers (though there may be some like that, it's certainly not universal) but because they think it's where their kids will get the best education. Of my year in my school, one of us got into Oxbridge. Did the parents of all the others waste their money? I hardly think so. Ironically, I didn't even pay full fees there - I was on one of the last Assisted places, so I'm not even your stereotypical "bought education" student.
Im sorry but i cant believe that anyone can think a rah's tried as hard to get three A's than a standard state schoolers. Most state scholers havent even heard of university or what there education could get them into untill they get to college/6th form.privates dont have to put up with the constant disruption of bullying, beatings, drug running/selling/addicts, alcoholic violence, degrading cattle-bus runs, piss poor teachers who are to stressed to teach, underfunded resources and the conveyer belt of education/exam which dehumanises you! And thats before you take into account there own personal environment that they have to learn and study in! Im not saying that ALL private schoolers have it easy, they dont, but they live in a bubble world and will probably stay within it for the rest of their lives in a nice fat salary. A state schooler has to try harder to get the oxbridge grade in most cases, this is truth.
This whining about discriminating against the "the ol school tie" is just the groans of aristos against the rise of the common man into their bubble world and taking their "rightful" £££.
This whining about discriminating against the "the ol school tie" is just the groans of aristos against the rise of the common man into their bubble world and taking their "rightful" £££.
I'm currently studying in the sixth-form of a grammar school (state), and have found that people of totally diverse backgrounds get on fine - I do not see the major problem of integration that some of you seem to expect.
I would say that roughly half of the year group (maybe less) came to the school from an independent primary school - I went to my local state junior school, and although I remember being terrified of the prospect of being the odd one out in a crowd of posh arrogant aristos, it was unfounded. There are times in discussion that there is a slight separation of opinions between those who went to state school and those who did not, but it is not a major thing. I know going to a local private primary is on a different scale to Eton and the like, but there is no arrogance from friends who have Mercedes and swimming pools over those who live in council estates.
There is a stronger emphasis on exams and tutoring in privates (from ridiculous ages) from what friends have said - and it has to be said that some of those who have struggled the most in grammar school have been those who have been tutored to pass the 11+ in privates.
I suppose there is also an issue that could be raised over whether it is fair that so many who could afford to send their children to independent schools take up state grammar school places that were originally intended for the more 'gifted' poorer students.
Throughout life you will all have to meet a wide range of people, and whether they went to private or state school will be the least of the differences - you might as well get used to it & get over it, people!
I would say that roughly half of the year group (maybe less) came to the school from an independent primary school - I went to my local state junior school, and although I remember being terrified of the prospect of being the odd one out in a crowd of posh arrogant aristos, it was unfounded. There are times in discussion that there is a slight separation of opinions between those who went to state school and those who did not, but it is not a major thing. I know going to a local private primary is on a different scale to Eton and the like, but there is no arrogance from friends who have Mercedes and swimming pools over those who live in council estates.
There is a stronger emphasis on exams and tutoring in privates (from ridiculous ages) from what friends have said - and it has to be said that some of those who have struggled the most in grammar school have been those who have been tutored to pass the 11+ in privates.
I suppose there is also an issue that could be raised over whether it is fair that so many who could afford to send their children to independent schools take up state grammar school places that were originally intended for the more 'gifted' poorer students.
Throughout life you will all have to meet a wide range of people, and whether they went to private or state school will be the least of the differences - you might as well get used to it & get over it, people!
mrjaffacake
Most state scholers havent even heard of university or what there education could get them into untill they get to college/6th form.privates dont have to put up with the constant disruption of bullying, beatings, drug running/selling/addicts, alcoholic violence, degrading cattle-bus runs, piss poor teachers who are to stressed to teach, underfunded resources and the conveyer belt of education/exam which dehumanises you! .
Im not saying that ALL private schoolers have it easy, they dont, but they live in a bubble world and will probably stay within it for the rest of their lives in a nice fat salary.
And I would very much dispute that ALL state school kids are in the lovely situation you describe above - in fact I know for sure that they're not. It's bullshit that most of them haven't heard of university, and you don't know anything if you think that private schools don't have bullying. We aren't all living in a bubble you know.
Oh, and private schools have to follow the supposedly "dehumanising" conveyor belt of education.
mrjaffacake
Im sorry but i cant believe that anyone can think a rah's tried as hard to get three A's than a standard state schoolers. Most state scholers havent even heard of university or what there education could get them into untill they get to college/6th form.privates dont have to put up with the constant disruption of bullying, beatings, drug running/selling/addicts, alcoholic violence, degrading cattle-bus runs, piss poor teachers who are to stressed to teach, underfunded resources and the conveyer belt of education/exam which dehumanises you! And thats before you take into account there own personal environment that they have to learn and study in! Im not saying that ALL private schoolers have it easy, they dont, but they live in a bubble world and will probably stay within it for the rest of their lives in a nice fat salary. A state schooler has to try harder to get the oxbridge grade in most cases, this is truth.
This whining about discriminating against the "the ol school tie" is just the groans of aristos against the rise of the common man into their bubble world and taking their "rightful" £££.
This whining about discriminating against the "the ol school tie" is just the groans of aristos against the rise of the common man into their bubble world and taking their "rightful" £££.
RedCat6
As a teacher who has experienced both systems I certainly can deny...
RedCat seems very keen to remind everyone in each post that she has tought at both private and state schools. Does this mean that RedCat is automatically right in everything that she says? I don't think so, in fact, from what my friends and relatives who teach tell me private school teachers are regarded by the profession as poor teachers who can't handle the work of a normal school so run to the safety of a nice job in a private school. This would suggest to me that you have probably also sought out jobs in "nice" state schools and that you don't therefore have a very balanced perspective to compare.
More potently I see that my point goes unanswered. Parents pay for private school for an advantage (how precisely they see this as simply a better education or otherwise, it is still them buying their child extra help of some form) so why should children privilege to such an advantage not be discriminated against?
house badger
RedCat seems very keen to remind everyone in each post that she has tought at both private and state schools. Does this mean that RedCat is automatically right in everything that she says? I don't think so, in fact, from what my friends and relatives who teach tell me private school teachers are regarded by the profession as poor teachers who can't handle the work of a normal school so run to the safety of a nice job in a private school. This would suggest to me that you have probably also sought out jobs in "nice" state schools and that you don't therefore have a very balanced perspective to compare.
More potently I see that my point goes unanswered. Parents pay for private school for an advantage (how precisely they see this as simply a better education or otherwise, it is still them buying their child extra help of some form) so why should children privilege to such an advantage not be discriminated against?
More potently I see that my point goes unanswered. Parents pay for private school for an advantage (how precisely they see this as simply a better education or otherwise, it is still them buying their child extra help of some form) so why should children privilege to such an advantage not be discriminated against?
Your grades are decided by your ability to work in the majority of cases after all if you are truely that bright you will suceed where ever you are. Private schools only suceed in allowing you to work to your full potential. This isnt something that people should be punished for.
After all people going to private school are also paying for a state educaton throught their taxes that they are aren't taking advantage of and thus your school is better off for every child that pays to go to a private school, so you really are in no position to complain.
amyitfc
I'm currently studying in the sixth-form of a grammar school (state), and have found that people of totally diverse backgrounds get on fine - I do not see the major problem of integration that some of you seem to expect.
Well that's certainly not a typical experience then. State grammar schools are a separate issue here, and the few students who go to them are extremely privileged to be able to do so.
At Oxford I have met a lot of extremely bright people who have successfully been educated in both the private and state sectors. I have also met several people, from both sectors, who are not exceptionally bright but have worked hard throughout their education and achieved great results. However, there are also some who are not exceptionally bright, and haven't worked particularly hard, but have simply had a very good education, and these kind of people almost always seem to have come from independent schools. They are often the first to admit this and tend to struggle when they actually get here. It seems to me that the most unfair thing about it is that 'OK' students who have had a privileged education are able to get into top universities, whereas 'OK' students from bog-standard-comp could never dream of getting good enough grades to go there. There are always going to be outstanding students in both sectors, but it's the average student who often seems to miss out.
Speciez99
"Genius is one per cent inspiration and ninety-nine per cent perspiration" Thomas Edison
Your grades are decided by your ability to work in the majority of cases after all if you are truely that bright you will suceed where ever you are. Private schools only suceed in allowing you to work to your full potential. This isnt something that people should be punished for.
After all people going to private school are also paying for a state educaton throught their taxes that they are aren't taking advantage of and thus your school is better off for every child that pays to go to a private school, so you really are in no position to complain.
Your grades are decided by your ability to work in the majority of cases after all if you are truely that bright you will suceed where ever you are. Private schools only suceed in allowing you to work to your full potential. This isnt something that people should be punished for.
After all people going to private school are also paying for a state educaton throught their taxes that they are aren't taking advantage of and thus your school is better off for every child that pays to go to a private school, so you really are in no position to complain.
In all the subjects I study, the main factor of success is most definitely quality of teaching. I know this because I've had different teachers over the last two years, and the teacher I get usually effects me by 1 or 2 grades. I have no chance of understanding say rigid bodies unless I have a good teacher there explaining it to me, the textbook just can't do it. A stark example, last year my entire further maths class got 90%+ in stats 2, because we were taught by the best teacher in our college, this year we did mechanics 2 and I was the only person to get above an E, a change of teacher is regarded as the main reason for this.
Disparaties in quality of teaching are well understand by universities, Cambridge for example acknowledged that the teaching in my college would not be capable of guiding me through STEP exams, so they tried to address this by providing an easter school of STEP teaching for me. Dr Siklos also acknowledges that a good proportion of mathematically mediocre students get As in maths Alevel because a good teacher can train them to pass the modular exam regardless of their ability (advanced problems in mathematics).
calumc
I'm really not sure to be honest. I got an A in my maths prelim, missed an A in chemistry by 6%, and havn't done my physics one yet. I need AAA but hopefully with a bit of work I'll get there!
Best of luck. I imagine with some good teaching you'd have no problem getting it though.
fishpaste
Best of luck. I imagine with some good teaching you'd have no problem getting it though.
...which is precisely the point. I would say out of all my teachers at college I only had one who was actually good at her job, and she only taught one module of one subject. I don't think it's coincidence that a few of us got full marks in that module but struggled in the others.
hildabeast
...which is precisely the point. I would say out of all my teachers at college I only had one who was actually good at her job, and she only taught one module of one subject. I don't think it's coincidence that a few of us got full marks in that module but struggled in the others.
Indeed. Thanks for providing an example.
From the age of 2 1/2 I went to private schools.
Some were excellent, i went to about 4 as we moved around the country. From the age of 13 i chose to board, thinking i would do some more studying, i'm afraid i was just as lazy as at home, but being able to lie in bed until 10 mins before school started was cool, me not being an early morning person!
But by the time, i was 15 taking my GCSE's i was bored and ready to leave, fed up with the strictness and just wanted to have a more independent atmosphere to do my Alevels in.
My father was not happy about this as he wanted me to stay at my current school or if i was bored of that, go to the private school my 3 brothers are at.
I was insistent i wanted to go to the local state college, and managed to persude my mum to let me go there, providing i got decent GCSE results.
Luckily i did and was delighted to enroll at my local college, i have been here for 2yrs now and i am very pleased i decided to come here as opposed to staying at school.
I have found the teaching to be as excellent and the classes as small (9 for Alevel) as at my old school. The teachers are just as keen and we are taken on trips, the facilites are not brilliant, but they are good.
I was (incorrectly) slightly scared about state people, before i came to college, which was something our school encouraged - no doubt to scare us into staying in the private sector.
In fact in my headmaster's study when i said i was leaving to study A levels at my local college, he said i would rather you go to a rival state school then go there. Most of my teachers also tried to persude my i would FAIL if i went to the local college.
I am so glad i didn't take their advice, i have utterly enjoyed doing Alevels here and found 99% of the people incredibly down to earth and very friendly.
I also hopefully won't fail, managed to gain A's in most of my AS levels, doing better than many of my friends who stayed in the private sector.
I am glad i was allowed the chance to go to a state system as it has totally changed the way my parents think about them, they are just as good and in many cases better, depending on those lucky enough to live in the right catchment area.
I have been lucky that people have liked me on the person i am rather than the type of school i went to. I would never decide i liked someone on the type of school or uni they went to - it is how they are as a person that counts.
Sorry this is so long, and apolgies for bad spelling.
Ali
Some were excellent, i went to about 4 as we moved around the country. From the age of 13 i chose to board, thinking i would do some more studying, i'm afraid i was just as lazy as at home, but being able to lie in bed until 10 mins before school started was cool, me not being an early morning person!
But by the time, i was 15 taking my GCSE's i was bored and ready to leave, fed up with the strictness and just wanted to have a more independent atmosphere to do my Alevels in.
My father was not happy about this as he wanted me to stay at my current school or if i was bored of that, go to the private school my 3 brothers are at.
I was insistent i wanted to go to the local state college, and managed to persude my mum to let me go there, providing i got decent GCSE results.
Luckily i did and was delighted to enroll at my local college, i have been here for 2yrs now and i am very pleased i decided to come here as opposed to staying at school.
I have found the teaching to be as excellent and the classes as small (9 for Alevel) as at my old school. The teachers are just as keen and we are taken on trips, the facilites are not brilliant, but they are good.
I was (incorrectly) slightly scared about state people, before i came to college, which was something our school encouraged - no doubt to scare us into staying in the private sector.
In fact in my headmaster's study when i said i was leaving to study A levels at my local college, he said i would rather you go to a rival state school then go there. Most of my teachers also tried to persude my i would FAIL if i went to the local college.
I am so glad i didn't take their advice, i have utterly enjoyed doing Alevels here and found 99% of the people incredibly down to earth and very friendly.
I also hopefully won't fail, managed to gain A's in most of my AS levels, doing better than many of my friends who stayed in the private sector.
I am glad i was allowed the chance to go to a state system as it has totally changed the way my parents think about them, they are just as good and in many cases better, depending on those lucky enough to live in the right catchment area.
I have been lucky that people have liked me on the person i am rather than the type of school i went to. I would never decide i liked someone on the type of school or uni they went to - it is how they are as a person that counts.
Sorry this is so long, and apolgies for bad spelling.
Ali
Musicwoman
I'm not a public/private school basher. If my mother could have afforded it, I would have been there like a shot. As it is, I'm a bog-standard comp and LEA sixth-form college gal through and through.
But tell me something (well a few things actually), if you are privately educated:
From my 'bog-standard experience', I have picked up 12 GCSEs all at A* and A, AAAE AS grades ( the 'E', if you're ondering, was for a subject in which we were taught the wrong things, inappropriately, by a teacher who b*****ed off without staying to face the consequences. I got A* in the same subject at GCSE) and predicted AAA A2 grades.
Now which of us had the easier ride, eh?
But tell me something (well a few things actually), if you are privately educated:
From my 'bog-standard experience', I have picked up 12 GCSEs all at A* and A, AAAE AS grades ( the 'E', if you're ondering, was for a subject in which we were taught the wrong things, inappropriately, by a teacher who b*****ed off without staying to face the consequences. I got A* in the same subject at GCSE) and predicted AAA A2 grades.
Now which of us had the easier ride, eh?
1) how big are your class sizes - for GCSE? for your A level subjects?
GCSE: You're looking around 20 for the big subjects like maths (maths was more because I was in the top set) and english and science. Maybe 12 for geography, and the smaller ones.
Alevel: It depends, 12 for physics, 15 for Economics, 6 for Maths and 3 for Further Maths.
2) were you taught by qualified, experienced teachers at all times? I suppose so, apart from that crappy economics teacher who had no qualifications in economics. But it was ok, she only taught wednesdays.
3) are your lessons disrupted because your school is forced to take all those permanently excluded from other schools in the area? No, obviously.
4) have you ever experienced having to teach yourself some subjects / modules because there was no-one to teach it to you? Yes, S2 is self taught, and biology last year was pretty much self taught because the syllabus wasn't finished and the teacher wasn't good.
5) have you ever experienced having to go for extra lessons with the Head of Department after school when both you and she were exhausted because it was the only way you could catch up work missed because of absent teachers?
No, like I said, if the teacher doesn't finish the syllabus, you do so yourself. But I admit that happens rarely.
I will admit that I haven't read all this thread because it's really long and I gave up after six pages. But here is what I think, and I apologise if this has been said before and I missed it.
I went to a fairly average state school, and now go to a local college. My experience of state schools is that they are very very varied, much like I imagine public schools are, so making judgements about either is a bit silly because there is probably more diversity within the two groups than between them. The one I went to wasn't great - there was bullying, in varying degrees from mild to horrendous, and a number of utterly useless teachers, and a lot of people who really didn't want to be there, thus spent lessons throwing chairs and swearing, which made lessons a tad irritating sometimes. Clever people did suffer for being clever, but most of us came out the other side without too much mental trauma... but I refuse to undermine how awful it is to be made fun of when you're in that awkward stage (you know, about 13/14). But on the other hand, some people did very well in GCSE's, and there were some very good teachers, and I made some very good friends there. And I think a lot of the problems are common to all sorts of schools, as I think there might be a gene which makes all teenagers form cliques and be mean to people. But anyway, prejudice either way is a bit silly in my opinion. That said, I have done my best to play my state school background to my advantage in getting uni places, and I don't see anything wrong with that. It's not like I turned up to open days in rags with mud on my face or anything, but as long as the prejudices exist I see nothing wrong with using them as you like.
Also, I was dead set on doing proper revision so I got the syllabus specs off the internet and looked in textbooks so I could fill in any gaps in my A level notes, so really the teaching isn't the only thing to count. Of course having a good teacher helps immensely, and if your teacher teaches you all the wrong things it's their fault entirely. But I got lots of full UMS marks from using information in textbooks that we didn't get round to in class, so I think taking it into your own hands a bit is a good thing, because you can do that whichever school you want to go to.
A bit of a rant but hey, I'm tired and need some bed now.
Night all
Emma
xxx
I went to a fairly average state school, and now go to a local college. My experience of state schools is that they are very very varied, much like I imagine public schools are, so making judgements about either is a bit silly because there is probably more diversity within the two groups than between them. The one I went to wasn't great - there was bullying, in varying degrees from mild to horrendous, and a number of utterly useless teachers, and a lot of people who really didn't want to be there, thus spent lessons throwing chairs and swearing, which made lessons a tad irritating sometimes. Clever people did suffer for being clever, but most of us came out the other side without too much mental trauma... but I refuse to undermine how awful it is to be made fun of when you're in that awkward stage (you know, about 13/14). But on the other hand, some people did very well in GCSE's, and there were some very good teachers, and I made some very good friends there. And I think a lot of the problems are common to all sorts of schools, as I think there might be a gene which makes all teenagers form cliques and be mean to people. But anyway, prejudice either way is a bit silly in my opinion. That said, I have done my best to play my state school background to my advantage in getting uni places, and I don't see anything wrong with that. It's not like I turned up to open days in rags with mud on my face or anything, but as long as the prejudices exist I see nothing wrong with using them as you like.
Also, I was dead set on doing proper revision so I got the syllabus specs off the internet and looked in textbooks so I could fill in any gaps in my A level notes, so really the teaching isn't the only thing to count. Of course having a good teacher helps immensely, and if your teacher teaches you all the wrong things it's their fault entirely. But I got lots of full UMS marks from using information in textbooks that we didn't get round to in class, so I think taking it into your own hands a bit is a good thing, because you can do that whichever school you want to go to.
A bit of a rant but hey, I'm tired and need some bed now.
Night all
Emma
xxx
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