If top-up fees get the go ahead then.... Watch

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What's Chico Time Precious?
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#21
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#21
i'm behind Blair on this one, after watching the newsnight special a while back i can see it is probably best this way even though the dept will be huge
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George-W-Duck
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#22
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#22
(Original post by Absolution)
i'm behind Blair on this one, after watching the newsnight special a while back i can see it is probably best this way even though the dept will be huge
I thought Blairs performance on newsnight was useless, i understand top up fees and can see why they are necessary but his argument for them was illogical and most people on their could have seen better points. For example, he referred to the top up fees system of paying after as 'generous' about 5 times. Not one person in england on asking 'Would you like an extra 9000 of debt for a 3 year course?' would agree that it is generous.

He also kept referring on how people who have to stop work to look after ill family members will get their debt cancelled after twenty five years. As much as this is a good thing what percentage of people will actually have to do this? And if some one in the family has to give up work in the thirties they will have still paid off the majority of debt by that time anyway.
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George-W-Duck
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#23
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#23
Apologies for the grammar and spelling errors on the above post
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Brown Patrick Bateman
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#24
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#24
(Original post by cobra01977)
There are sum people out there who support them, more than you think, i dont but i know sum who do
Myself, Alec, AmazingTrade, amexblack, corey, edders, elpaw, JSM, kikzen, Lord Huntroyde, Pencil Queen, Soulfish, the g, waiting2smile and Whitey to name but a few...
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What's Chico Time Precious?
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#25
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(Original post by George-W-Duck)
Apologies for the grammar and spelling errors on the above post
s'ok. I just think its nieve and selfish to think tax payers should foot the bill. I guess we'll just have to wait and see what happens i guess in the next week or so.
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AT82
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(Original post by Jools)
Myself, Alec, AmazingTrade, amexblack, corey, edders, elpaw, JSM, kikzen, Lord Huntroyde, Pencil Queen, Soulfish, the g, waiting2smile and Whitey to name but a few...
I don't support it in principle I am only supporting it because I can't see any other way round the problem realisiticaly speaking. With jobs like computing which mainly benifets the graduate rather than society I think its only fair that these people (like myself) should have to pay towards their education. However I think if these people worked for local government/public sector for 5 years or more their loan should be scapped as the public sector pays a lot less than the private sector.
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magicalsausage
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#27
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Though I think the idea in itself is good, I think the current scheme is incredibly flawed - the level of £15 000 is too low and the actual repayment scheme has been designed so that those earning just over £15k will be paying a large amount of their income (I heard 40% but that seems ridiculous) towards paying off the fees while for those who earn £100k it will be very little in relation to the salary.
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edufly
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#28
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#28
Will graduates ever have a positive financial situation in their lifetime if top up fees are allowed. Just think of the house prices our generation are faced with.....the future will be one full of debt for us.

I dont think graduates should have to face an uphill struggle in life!
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AT82
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#29
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#29
(Original post by eddiedaboss)
Will graduates ever have a positive financial situation in their lifetime if top up fees are allowed. Just think of the house prices our generation are faced with.....the future will be one full of debt for us.

I dont think graduates should have to face an uphill struggle in life!
Yeah its a serious problem I am priced out of the property market in my local area now unless I buy a house in a rough area. The average house price is approaching the £200k mark which means I am priced out unless I earn £60k a year.
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wizard
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#30
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Leading rebel Nick Brown will support the government in tonight's top-up fees vote.
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Dude
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#31
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#31
i aint behind him on this. i reckon it's a stupid idea.
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wizard
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#32
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To contribute to the discussion, I must say that I support the plan. Extra funding will be benefitial for the unis and eventually, for us the students as well. Some details of the plan suggest that there will be financial aid for the poorest students. (grants and bursaries)
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Dude
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#33
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(Original post by wizard)
To contribute to the discussion, I must say that I support the plan. Extra funding will be benefitial for the unis and eventually, for us the students as well. Some details of the plan suggest that there will be financial aid for the poorest students. (grants and bursaries)
yes but u have to understand this. There are already people wo can't afford the current fees. Boosting it up will just make things worse.
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AT82
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#34
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(Original post by Dude)
yes but u have to understand this. There are already people wo can't afford the current fees. Boosting it up will just make things worse.
Yeah but you just pay them back once you graduate, you don't pay anything until you graduate. The idea is after graduate they all equal so wether you are from a working or middle class background you will have the same ability to pay back the fees. It dosn't work like this in theory as the working class are more likely to go to lesser universities or HE colleges so probably will never earn as much.
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PQ
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#35
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(Original post by magicalsausage)
the level of £15 000 is too low and the actual repayment scheme has been designed so that those earning just over £15k will be paying a large amount of their income (I heard 40% but that seems ridiculous) towards paying off the fees while for those who earn £100k it will be very little in relation to the salary.
Sorry to keep repeating this people but it obviously isn't sinking in...

(Original post by Pencil Queen)
I've corrected this little piece of propagana* elsewhere on the site but it hasn't appeared to sink in.

The tuition fee/student loan repayment is NOT 9% of total earnings - it's 9% of total earning minus £15k.

So for someone earning £20k it works out at 2.25% of their overall income - not 9%.

For someone on £16k it's only 0.5625% of their total earnings.

For someone on £30k its 4.5% of their total income.

Plus just because you are in the 22% income tax bracket doesn't mean you pay 22% of your earnings in tax.

Someone on £16k would pay nothing on the first £4615 earned, 10% income tax on the next ~£2 and 22% on the remainder which works out at an overall income tax rate of 15% (of course this is thanks to the labour government who introduced the 10% bracket lowering *everyones* taxes previously it went direct from 0 tax to 22%).

So for someon on £16k that's:
15% income tax
11% NI contributions
0.6% tuition fee/student loan repayment

26.6% overall - not 41% or anything like it.


*note just because I call it propaganda doesn't mean I'm accusing you of knowingly spreading it - just accepting something that has been said as fact without checking up on the facts yourself, and with tax calculations that's perfectly understandable.
Someone on £100k would be paying £637.5 a month in student loan repayments - 7.65% of total income against the 0.6% that someone on £16k would pay. (I cant be bothered working out all the tax %ages for £100k though)
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PQ
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#36
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(Original post by amazingtrade)
Yeah its a serious problem I am priced out of the property market in my local area now unless I buy a house in a rough area. The average house price is approaching the £200k mark which means I am priced out unless I earn £60k a year.
House prices have always been a problem (or at least have been for first time buyer for the last 10 yrs)...I only managed to get my house because it was a wreck and needed 2 walls knocking down and the kitchen re-fitting to make it live-able...and even then it cost £96.5k.

And also ironically because HSBC do an excellent graduate mortgage which allows you to borrow up to 4 times your income (based on the assumption that your income is likely to increase much faster than a non graduates).
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meepmeep
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#37
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The argument about variable fees creating a two-tier system is a bit moot anyway because lower universities tend to take more poorer students and so will be forced to charge full whack to the students who do not meet financial support levels to stay afloat.

The problem with the government's argument is it says graduates earn far more than the average, but the greater the number of graduates, the fewer proportion of graduates who will land a good, high salary job. The pay gap has already narrowed somewhat.

It won't affect me but it will affect my brother and the annoying thing from a purely selfish point of view about paying after he has graduated is he will be paying for improvements to the university system but will not gain any benefit from it, as this money will not be available before students have graduated and will trickle in a a slow rate even when they have.

Are the government planning to allow universities to borrow from them or do they expect universities to take out loans from banks to fund improvements for these years in between? If they have to borrow from banks, then they will lose out due to the difference in interest rates between student loans and bank loans.
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yawn1
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#38
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(Original post by Pencil Queen)
Sorry to keep repeating this people but it obviously isn't sinking in...



Someone on £100k would be paying £637.5 a month in student loan repayments - 7.65% of total income against the 0.6% that someone on £16k would pay. (I cant be bothered working out all the tax/NI %ages for £100k though)
I hate to be pedantic but I just must correct you on your bit about NI contributions. NI is subject to the 'all or nothing' rule which means that if you earn below the lower earnings exemption (it might current be £4,000 pa as you stated) you pay nothing. However, once your earnings exceed £4,000 you pay 11% on the lot! So if someone earns £3,399 they pay no NI conts. but if they earn £4,001 they pay £440.11.
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yawn1
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#39
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(Original post by amazingtrade)
Yeah but you just pay them back once you graduate, you don't pay anything until you graduate. The idea is after graduate they all equal so wether you are from a working or middle class background you will have the same ability to pay back the fees. It dosn't work like this in theory as the working class are more likely to go to lesser universities or HE colleges so probably will never earn as much.
Another point about paying back uni fees post graduation is that you could be sitting next to someone at uni who does not incur the level of debt that you do as they get financial aid because of their parents income, yet when you both start earning the same income after graduation they wil be much better off as their debt will be much lower.
Is this equality?
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PQ
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#40
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(Original post by yawn1)
I hate to be pedantic but I just must correct you on your bit about NI contributions. NI is subject to the 'all or nothing' rule which means that if you earn below the lower earnings exemption (it might current be £4,000 pa as you stated) you pay nothing. However, once your earnings exceed £4,000 you pay 11% on the lot! So if someone earns £3,399 they pay no NI conts. but if they earn £4,001 they pay £440.11.
:eek: you're right (and would you believe I used to work in payroll and used to work these things out for people...memory like a seive)

Shall edit the original and redo the sums - thank you
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