If top-up fees get the go ahead then.... Watch

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AT82
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#41
Report 16 years ago
#41
(Original post by yawn1)
Another point about paying back uni fees post graduation is that you could be sitting next to someone at uni who does not incur the level of debt that you do as they get financial aid because of their parents income, yet when you both start earning the same income after graduation they wil be much better off as their debt will be much lower.
Is this equality?
Yes but a lot (not all) middle class students will get some kind of financial aid from their parents, I know loads of people that have no idea how much their rent is because their mummy and daddy pays it. The poorer student will not have access to this money which is why they need the extra government support. I know this new scheme is very hard on the lower middle class sector like my parents who's children would not qualify for the extra support nor do they have any money to give them while university.
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yawn1
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#42
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#42
With a large majority of the current student generation leaving uni with very large debts that will take many years to pay off, we will have a generation who will delay starting families until their late 30's (with implications for fertility and resultant lowering of birthrate), house prices will come tumbling down as they won't be able to afford mortgages (result - less house building, less employment, higher unemployment, less people to pay taxes so less money in the public purse) Personal pensions will not be afforded so there will be a bigger drain on means tested benefits. In all, the knock-on effects will have a profound effect on the economy of the country long-term.
Have all these things been thought through or is the incumbent government (as all governments) going for the short-term fix without considering the long-term implications?
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yawn1
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#43
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#43
(Original post by amazingtrade)
Yes but a lot (not all) middle class students will get some kind of financial aid from their parents, I know loads of people that have no idea how much their rent is because their mummy and daddy pays it. The poorer student will not have access to this money which is why they need the extra government support. I know this new scheme is very hard on the lower middle class sector like my parents who's children would not qualify for the extra support nor do they have any money to give them while university.
I accept your thinking but consider how old these 'middle-class' (not, in the main, wealthy) parents will be when their children graduate. On average they will be coming up to retirement age so their disposable income will have been used to provide a reasonable standard of living for their retirement. Whilst they MAY have helped towards accommodation costs these students will have had to pay for tution (£3,000 per year - at least for the next parliament, and students loans of say £4,000 per year) making a total of £21,000 for 3 year course and £28,000 for 4 years. If we then consider those students who are currently in say year 8 by the time they go to uni the fees could have gone up to £6,000 per year leaving them with debt of at least £33,000. Once the gates have been opened the costs to students will soar, as has happened in USA, Australia etc. Why do you think so many Aussies come to work here (as well as other countries) once they graduate. To escape their enormous student debt!
If this forum is still going in say 10 years time I will come back and say "I told you so" :mad:
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AT82
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#44
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#44
(Original post by yawn1)
I accept your thinking but consider how old these 'middle-class' (not, in the main, wealthy) parents will be when their children graduate. On average they will be coming up to retirement age so their disposable income will have been used to provide a reasonable standard of living for their retirement. Whilst they MAY have helped towards accommodation costs these students will have had to pay for tution (£3,000 per year - at least for the next parliament, and students loans of say £4,000 per year) making a total of £21,000 for 3 year course and £28,000 for 4 years. If we then consider those students who are currently in say year 8 by the time they go to uni the fees could have gone up to £6,000 per year leaving them with debt of at least £33,000. Once the gates have been opened the costs to students will soar, as has happened in USA, Australia etc. Why do you think so many Aussies come to work here (as well as other countries) once they graduate. To escape their enormous student debt!
If this forum is still going in say 10 years time I will come back and say "I told you so" :mad:
Firstly very very few students will be entitled to this extra money, most people at university will find their parents earn about £15,000 a year. What you're saying may happen but I think its the most extreme scenario, the these people will have to pay is very little and it will actually add up nothing more than a slight increase in income tax. I think what you're saying will only happen when fees start getting as high as £10,000 a year which may happen.
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PQ
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#45
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I don't think there is much chance of the fees rising much above £3k....or at least there isn't much point unless the 25 yr cap on repayments is scrapped because even if they charged massive amount the majority would not be repaid within 25 yrs.

For example the average 3 yr debt of £21k to be repaid in 25 yrs implies £840pa repayment...implying an average salary of £24,333 over the 25 yr period...not an unimaginable average average income.

Put the fees up to £6k and you're talking about an average 3yr debt of £30k to be repaid over 25 yr, average annual repayment of £1,200...so would need an average salary of £28,333 (and these figures are ignoring inflation). This might not be completely unfeasable but only the student loan company would have a very good idea over whether this is likely to be someone's average income between the ages of 21 and 46.
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magicalsausage
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#46
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#46
Someone on £100k would be paying £637.5 a month in student loan repayments - 7.65% of total income against the 0.6% that someone on £16k would pay. (I cant be bothered working out all the tax %ages for £100k though)
Well thank you for correcting me, I really wasn't trying to spread misinformation - I had heard that the figure came from a reputable source but it is clearly wrong. I'm still against the current proposal though, I don't see the logic in the concessions made for students from lower-income families and it seems the more Labour try to make the proposals palatable for their own backbenchers the more absurd it is becoming.
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PQ
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#47
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(Original post by magicalsausage)
Well thank you for correcting me, I really wasn't trying to spread misinformation - I had heard that the figure came from a reputable source but it is clearly wrong.
It was quoted in the Telegraph apparantly...you'd think journalists would know better :rolleyes:

(and sorry if the tone sounded like I was having a go but there were a few people on this forum who kept spouting this 40% tax thing all over the place and I cut and pasted my reply to them instead of typing the lot out again)
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wizard
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#48
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#48
In addition, how many students will be willing to pay £9000+ for a degree from unis like tvu etc? It's about time we start thinking about getting rid of useless unis and courses, something that will be enabled from the new plan. If we are serious about education, we need to consider this. A HE insitution cannot be characterised as "useless" one could argue, but there are institutions that ridicule the definition...
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AT82
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#49
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#49
(Original post by wizard)
In addition, how many students will be willing to pay £9000+ for a degree from unis like tvu etc? It's about time we start thinking about getting rid of useless unis and courses, something that will be enabled from the new plan. If we are serious about education, we need to consider this. A HE insitution cannot be characterised as "useless" one could argue, but there are institutions that ridicule the definition...
I kind of agree, I think there needs to be stricter rules to prevent more hair dressing courses been offer by the HE colleges. However what do you define as useless? I am sure even a TVU graduate will probably learn things in which employees will find usefull.
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wizard
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#50
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OK but the plan may act as a "threat" to academic institutions that underperform and force them to improve as well as revise their programmes.
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AT82
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#51
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(Original post by wizard)
OK but the plan may act as a "threat" to academic institutions that underperform and force them to improve as well as revise their programmes.
I think TVU have been threatend with this before, as I far as I know under its old name it was the only university in the country to be threatened with improve or loose your university status. I wish my university would get rid of the some of the courses too it brings it right down in the league tables. I think the restructuring has helped with this though.
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yawn1
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#52
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#52
(Original post by wizard)
In addition, how many students will be willing to pay £9000+ for a degree from unis like tvu etc? It's about time we start thinking about getting rid of useless unis and courses, something that will be enabled from the new plan. If we are serious about education, we need to consider this. A HE insitution cannot be characterised as "useless" one could argue, but there are institutions that ridicule the definition...
Should the debate on top-up fees have been preceded by a debate on whether the target of 50% in universities is justified? If it had then perhaps there would not be a need to have top-up fees. We could have just carried on with tuition fees being increased by the annual rate of inflation.
I guess I am mostly angered by the years of under-investment of higher education (for the sake of increasing the nations wealth to pay for things like WAR) and now our generation bearing the responsibility for bailing out the Treasury.
Pencil Queen - Regarding the potential for swingeing increases of future fees and your comment that the cap will have to be lifted on 25 year maximum repayment period; Didn't Tony Blair say that the average period of repayment would be 13 years?
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PQ
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#53
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(Original post by yawn1)
Pencil Queen - Regarding the potential for swingeing increases of future fees and your comment that the cap will have to be lifted on 25 year maximum repayment period; Didn't Tony Blair say that the average period of repayment would be 13 years?
Possibly - I can't say I've read it but then I've tried to ignore the to-ing and fro-ing and stuck to reading the policy documents. If that is the average repayment time they're predicting then there is certainly a potential to double the overall debt - and raise the fees to a maximum of £10k pa

(which is daft really when you consider that a classroom based degree only gets £3000 funding in total anyway...only clinical medicine (the final 2 yrs) costs over £10,000pa to teach)
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edufly
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#54
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#54
Well it seems that some 'under table deals' have been struck between blair and the opposition to top-up fees MP's (Nick Brown).

I hope Nick Brown is proud of himself, he has gone against his own believes and why is the question??
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George-W-Duck
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#55
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#55
(Original post by eddiedaboss)
Well it seems that some 'under table deals' have been struck between blair and the opposition to top-up fees MP's (Nick Brown).

I hope Nick Brown is proud of himself, he has gone against his own believes and why is the question??
He hasn't half, the former chief whip being whipped by the PM, i bet there is some benefit in future jobs to him, the diversion of him is not the worse thing, its the people that will follow him (even though i think the bill always would have gone through the commons). Nick Brown is a disgrace, he should be locked up with Claire Short
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wizard
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#56
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#56
Government wins by 5 votes. It's final.
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ChrisR
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#57
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#57
It's final for a year and then the conservatives will kick it out
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