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RoyFester
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#21
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#21
Who mentioned communism?

Richer people should be able to buy bigger houses, expensive cars etc, but education in the 21st century is a fundamental right and it should not favour the middle/upper classes. IMO.
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Tnacilppa
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#22
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#22
There is no way to make every school as good as the better public schools. In fact, by abolishing private schools the standard of state-school will slip. Education is a fundamental right, that is why there are state schools.

One point I would like clarified is this: Would people welcome the abolition of public schools just so that those who would have gone to one have a worse education? If yes I think that it's crazy. Education is a fundamental right, but so is freedom of choice.

Don't limit choice by trying to make everyone the same. Don't limit people's potential by denying them top facilities. Don't abolish public schools.

Adam
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fishpaste
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#23
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#23
(Original post by Tnacilppa)
All I can say is chip and shoulder.

To say that teachers at private schools are considerably better paid than teachers at state schools is ridiculous.

My school gives chemistry equipment to a local state school. People from state schools come in to use our music recording and drama facilities. I am not saying this because I feel my school should be thanked for this but simply because I can't stand the anti-public school feeling which is perpetuated just about everywhere.

Besides, you cannot force teachers to teach in schools where they are subject to unenthusiasm, violence and a generally crap attitude. A teacher who came to my school last year did so because she was basically abused by the kids at her inner-city state school. She was held at gunpoint. She was subject to a total lack of interest in any academic work. Is it suprising that given half the chance most teachers would like to teach at a private school?

What about the NHS? Should everyone be forced to hang around on never-ending waiting lists? People who earn money do so because they are motivated, hard-working and willing to make sacrifices. They should not be penalised for being successful.

What you are suggesting is in fact not a general rise in in standard of education. If private schools were abolished the standard would drop. A dumbing down is what you are effectively suggesting. People who have enough money to send their kids to private schools should be able to do so without guilt.

People who would succeed would probably do so anyway. Bill Gates left school at 16 and is now the richest man in the world. I think that people blame their schooling for their failures. How would dragging everyone down into the state-school system help? In fact all it would do is icrease class sizes even more!

Adam
Um, it's a fact, I agree it's ridiculous, but it's still the case. Luckily teachers are usually members of society who feel they have a responsibility in society, and aren't that motivated by pay rises. Nevertheless, it's common knowledge that teachers are hard to retain in the state sector (for the reasons you said, as well as the one I mention).

No it is not at all surprising that many teachers wish to work at private schools, I'm glad you see that the best teachers are being poached from the state sector which causes it to spiral. Also, random sidenote which is not part of my argument, the problems of state schools (guns, etc) arise from poverty and so inequality/inequity, a two tier education system does nothing to eradicate this.

I don't agree with private healthcare either, once again, poaching the best skills to give yourself privelidge just because you were lucky enough to be born into the right family. Think about a more direct example, if you had one treatment for a fatal disease, and the person with the most money was able to buy it and deprive the poor person of it, this would not be fair. Of course it's not that dramatic in the NHS, but there is a vague analogy.

I don't understand how the standard of education would drop, the best resources would then be available to everybody.

Bill Gates went to Harvard, the analogy here would be Oxford. It's really quite difficult to get to Oxford if your school is underfunded and lacking in resources.
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fishpaste
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#24
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#24
(Original post by Tnacilppa)
There is no way to make every school as good as the better public schools. In fact, by abolishing private schools the standard of state-school will slip. Education is a fundamental right, that is why there are state schools.

One point I would like clarified is this: Would people welcome the abolition of public schools just so that those who would have gone to one have a worse education? If yes I think that it's crazy. Education is a fundamental right, but so is freedom of choice.

Don't limit choice by trying to make everyone the same. Don't limit people's potential by denying them top facilities. Don't abolish public schools.

Adam
THE PUBLIC SCHOOL SYSTEM *IS* DEPRIVING PEOPLE OF THE TOP FACILITIES.
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amexblack
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#25
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#25
(Original post by fishpaste)
THE PUBLIC SCHOOL SYSTEM *IS* DEPRIVING PEOPLE OF THE TOP FACILITIES.

How so? If the private sector is abolished do you really expect the state to buy up all those golf courses, olympic pools and boathouses owned by the public schools? Ofcourse not. They will simply become privately run businesses. No more accessible by state school children.
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fishpaste
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#26
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#26
(Original post by amexblack)
How so? If the private sector is abolished do you really expect the state to buy up all those golf courses, olympic pools and boathouses owned by the public schools? Ofcourse not. They will simply become privately run businesses. No more accessible by state school children.
Teachers will still find themselves back in the state sector. A good, motivated teacher can do wonders for young people.

Alternatively, the government could just set a cap of 0 fees on these schools, and provide them with the same funding that a state school receives now.
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llama boy
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#27
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#27
(Original post by KaiserSoze)
Something that is always puzzling in any debate involving private schools is that there is an assumption that somehow those who go to them are doing so at the expense of state school pupils, or are taking something away from them.
They are - they're taking, amongst other things, the best chances of good university places and graduate employment.

In fact the opposite is true, without the significant numbers of private school pupils the state school funding system would collapse; the fact is that parents who send their children to private schools are paying twice for their education; the money they pay in taxes still goes to the state school budget. Of course there is an obivious problem if the very fact people go to to a private school somehow entitles them to a university place due to bias - this would be obviously unfair, but universities now are doing everything that is feasibly possible to level the playing field and base their decisions on the 'merits of the child' which as you say is essential to any reasonable system.

Private schools currently have their place just as private healthcare does - the task is to make the state system good enough that there is no reason to go private, rather than removing any kind of choice.
Yes, these are the standard arguments for private this and private that.

Of course, it doesn't really work, they aren't two separate systems. A private healthcare/school system will drain human resources from the public one.
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amexblack
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#28
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#28
(Original post by fishpaste)
Teachers will still find themselves back in the state sector. A good, motivated teacher can do wonders for young people.

Alternatively, the government could just set a cap of 0 fees on these schools, and provide them with the same funding that a state school receives now.
You think the public schools are hogging all the good teachers then?
That is not true at all. Whilst I don't have a whole lot to compare them to, some of the teachers at Winchester are truly ****. Hardly any of our teachers are of the "good, motivated" kind. If anything makes them special it is that on the whole they have graduated from Oxbridge and are themselves intelligent. But that doesn't make them good teachers. It simply cannot be said that teachers at private schools are better than those at state schools. I'm not even sure if they get paid more, although their pirks can certainly be substantial.
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quantiannihai?
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#29
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#29
1)life isn't fair, sad but true.

2)other than the impossible logistics of abolishing private schools(already been mentioned), when all you guys (who i greatly admire) get into your well paid jobs through nothing but your own sheer brilliance, what will you be spending the money on? of course not private schooling, out of principle, but if you were a parent who had worked hard (yes some fee paying parents do apparently) in order to earn enough that you were able to give your child a better education, why would you deprive your child of that opportunity?

3)By creating a "meritocracy" you would also be effectively creating a universally lower standard of education. isn't it better to have some, limited better education, rather than none at all? Afterall, that is true of the uni situation too, there are also elitist institutions there.
unless this country undergoes a gross revival within the education system, a true level playing field will prove impossible to create. just be thankful that our state education is still a lot better than that which the majority of the rest of the world's population receive.
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fishpaste
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#30
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#30
(Original post by amexblack)
You think the public schools are hogging all the good teachers then?
That is not true at all. Whilst I don't have a whole lot to compare them to, some of the teachers at Winchester are truly ****. Hardly any of our teachers are of the "good, motivated" kind. If anything makes them special it is that on the whole they have graduated from Oxbridge and are themselves intelligent. But that doesn't make them good teachers. It simply cannot be said that teachers at private schools are better than those at state schools. I'm not even sure if they get paid more, although their pirks can certainly be substantial.
I can actually believe that. I don't think it undermines my argument that much though. Let me give you an example, I was going to goto a 6th form college called Bury College, (www.burycollege.ac.uk), until I went for interview, the teachers seemed poor, the general system was bad, they refuse to let people do 4 subjects because they just aren't used to that standard. Instead, I went to another college, which benefits somewhat from its connections to the church, this allows them to get good teachers, who know how to push me as student. There's no way I'd be doing 5 subjects at Bury, and I can't imagine I would have made it to Cambridge.
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Tek
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#31
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#31
(Original post by fishpaste)
Teachers will still find themselves back in the state sector. A good, motivated teacher can do wonders for young people.

Alternatively, the government could just set a cap of 0 fees on these schools, and provide them with the same funding that a state school receives now.
Hmm, let's think this through, logically, shall we?

Private School - set is streamed. The class of 15 pupils is well motivated and wants to learn. In fact, they'll all get A*s and As at GCSE, even if you just gave them the textbook to read. There are no behavioural problems at all.

State school - set is of mixed ability. There are two Oxbridge candidates, fifteen C/D grade students, three severely dyslexic children and ten "idiots" who'll leave school with no formal qualifications.

--
Now who's the better teacher?
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kildare
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#32
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#32
(Original post by Tek)
Hmm, let's think this through, logically, shall we?

Private School - set is streamed. The class of 15 pupils is well motivated and wants to learn. In fact, they'll all get A*s and As at GCSE, even if you just gave them the textbook to read. There are no behavioural problems at all.

State school - set is of mixed ability. There are two Oxbridge candidates, fifteen C/D grade students, three severely dyslexic children and ten "idiots" who'll leave school with no formal qualifications.

--
Now who's the better teacher?
Who is the 'better' teacher going to want to teach?
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Tek
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#33
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#33
(Original post by kildare)
Who is the 'better' teacher going to want to teach?
Irrevlevant - the better teacher will be the one who deals with the state school scenario.
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amexblack
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#34
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#34
(Original post by fishpaste)
I can actually believe that. I don't think it undermines my argument that much though. Let me give you an example, I was going to goto a 6th form college called Bury College, (www.burycollege.ac.uk), until I went for interview, the teachers seemed poor, the general system was bad, they refuse to let people do 4 subjects because they just aren't used to that standard. Instead, I went to another college, which benefits somewhat from its connections to the church, this allows them to get good teachers, who know how to push me as student. There's no way I'd be doing 5 subjects at Bury, and I can't imagine I would have made it to Cambridge.
And what exactly has this to do with ...
(Original post by fishpaste)
THE PUBLIC SCHOOL SYSTEM *IS* DEPRIVING PEOPLE OF THE TOP FACILITIES.
Please clarify exactly which facilities the public schools are depriving you of. As I've already said, it's not the sports facilities. It's not that our teachers are any better than yours either. So what is it? We are not depriving you of anything, if anything we are subsidising you.
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kildare
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#35
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#35
(Original post by Tek)
Irrevlevant - the better teacher will be the one who deals with the state school scenario.
Not nessecarily. If the teacher just sits there and admits defeat how does that make does that make him/her a better teacher?
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Suzy_vet
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#36
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#36
Ok, so we cant abolish private schools because this would cause the collapse of the schooling system through sheer money shortage. Apparently there are 5000 kids in london without a school place. They are not getting an education. If their parents could afford it they would send them to private school, but how many can do that? This is called inequality. It is supposed to be a basic right to have an education.

Many of the people from private school on here are talking about how inadequate and bad many state schools are, and how they are failing people and dont have resources etc. The same people seem to be complaining about the discrimination that they face when going to places for uni interviews etc.

The thing is that you recieve, in most cases, a superior education to others, and you do not have to battle with various problems to get there. Im not saying its perfect, but its better. Individuals may have had individual personal problems but on the whole, its been 'easier' for want of a better word. considering that 15% go to private school, 50% of ox and cam are still private. Therefore no matter what you say about 'positive' discrimination, you have a much better chance of getting in.

Why not just accept the fact that you have had an advantage over most others and accept that perhaps its time for others to have some kind advantage over you.

(im sure i'll get torn appart for this. sorry if you take offense, but i find some of the stuff some people say pretty offensive)
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fishpaste
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#37
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#37
(Original post by Tek)
Hmm, let's think this through, logically, shall we?

Private School - set is streamed. The class of 15 pupils is well motivated and wants to learn. In fact, they'll all get A*s and As at GCSE, even if you just gave them the textbook to read. There are no behavioural problems at all.

State school - set is of mixed ability. There are two Oxbridge candidates, fifteen C/D grade students, three severely dyslexic children and ten "idiots" who'll leave school with no formal qualifications.

--
Now who's the better teacher?
The state school teacher, until he or she moves down the road to the local Abbey School, and increases their salary £5k straight away.
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Tek
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#38
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#38
(Original post by kildare)
Not nessecarily. If the teacher just sits there and admits defeat how does that make does that make him/her a better teacher?
Well obviously I expect a teacher to try to deal with the situation rather than "do nothing" - otherwise why would they have become a teacher?
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fishpaste
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#39
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#39
(Original post by amexblack)
And what exactly has this to do with ...


Please clarify exactly which facilities the public schools are depriving you of. As I've already said, it's not the sports facilities. It's not that our teachers are any better than yours either. So what is it? We are not depriving you of anything, if anything we are subsidising you.
My example was to show you that state schools lack resources and experience, whereas private schools, and the exceptional case of my college which gets lots of 'gifts', are able to attract the best. There, deprivation.
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Tek
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#40
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#40
(Original post by fishpaste)
My example was to show you that state schools lack resources and experience, whereas private schools, and the exceptional case of my college which gets lots of 'gifts', are able to attract the best. There, deprivation.
Um, I dealt with that at the bottom of page 2.
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