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leda swanson
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i've just been reading a somewhat argumentative thread about discrimination against state educated students by those who have enjoyed the massive good fortune of an independent education. or, woe betide, vice versa.

which made me think, what do you think, why don't we outlaw and ABOLISH PRIVATE SCHOOLS once and for all? make everyone attend a bog-standard blair-funded comp? this being the only honest route to meritocracy- right?

uk learning should be a right, not a privilege. nobody should be more equal than anybody else.
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fishpaste
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Whilst I agree with you. People here are going to burn you for this :P
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musicbloke
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(Original post by leda swanson)
i've just been reading a somewhat argumentative thread about discrimination against state educated students by those who have enjoyed the massive good fortune of an independent education. or, woe betide, vice versa.

which made me think, what do you think, why don't we outlaw and ABOLISH PRIVATE SCHOOLS once and for all? make everyone attend a bog-standard blair-funded comp? this being the only honest route to meritocracy- right?

uk learning should be a right, not a privilege. nobody should be more equal than anybody else.
you are right leda. I mentioned this to a group of interviewees at the first round of interview and i was laughed at by a majority of them. of course learning is a right and with it comes responsibility but this is not a responsibility to hand over money but to respect the education of others.

Musicboy
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leda swanson
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#4
alas, martyred again
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leda swanson
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(Original post by musicboy)
you are right leda. I mentioned this to a group of interviewees at the first round of interview and i was laughed at by a majority of them. of course learning is a right and with it comes responsibility but this is not a responsibility to hand over money but to respect the education of others.

Musicboy
so would you advocate burning them all? i had the opportunity of leaving my comp and going to a prestigious fee-paying school for a-levels. but i turned down my place on principle. and got a place at cambridge...
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Helenia
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If you take away the choice to pay for a private education (yes, I know it's only a choice of the rich, especially now Blair has got rid of Assisted Places, which is how I got through my private school) and force all people to go to a certain type of school, that may be true meritocracy, but I see very little democracy in it.
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llama boy
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(Original post by leda swanson)
so would you advocate burning them all?
no reason why they can't continue to exist as schools like any other.
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Pollo Loco
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In my area parents who send children to 'state schools' can request that they attend a particular school. This has been done in the past as parents are looking at results and selecting the 'best school'.

Perhaps this choice should also be removed.

There are posts where there is s reference to 'rich people' I just wonder how this is perceived?
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MadNatSci
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I would disagree with you, also on principle. While I admire the strength of your principles displayed by turning down your chance at a prestigious fee-paying school, I don't see why everyone should have the choice removed. No, it isn't very fair - even less so, as Helenia rightly pointed out, since Blair removed Assisted Places. But not everyone at a private school is rich. I was on a scholarship at my school, and I'd reckon a good third, at least, of my year were on govt Assisted Places. I adored the place and I'm afraid that were I to relive my life I would accept that scholarship again, appallingly unprincipled though that may be. Should church schools also be shut down, since you can only go there if you attend church (etc)? Why should there not be a choice for people? And since comprehensives vary wildly from area to area, how would shutting down private schools make the system that much more of a meritocracy? If you're lucky enough to be in the catchment area of a good comprehensive, you'd be fine. But this is no more fair than paying for your place.
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llama boy
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(Original post by MadNatSci)
Why should there not be a choice for people?
"For people" I can only take to mean parents.

And that's just it - it's about the parents' right to fight their child into a better school at the expense of other children with less interested/skillful/manipulative/middle class/whatever parents.

Any meritocracy must be based on the merits of the child not the parent. The best way to give children the "choice" of which you talk is to not allow such discrepancies of standards to occur so early.
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Jamie
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(Original post by llama boy)
"For people" I can only take to mean parents.

And that's just it - it's about the parents' right to fight their child into a better school at the expense of other children with less interested/skillful/manipulative/middle class/whatever parents.

Any meritocracy must be based on the merits of the child not the parent. The best way to give children the "choice" of which you talk is to not allow such discrepancies of standards to occur so early.
1) Im piss poor and froma council house. went to ****e school andclawd ym way to cambridge (actuallly found it relatively easy, but thats beside the point)

2) [hopeful future] get decent grade

3) get well paid job - 5 times more than mymown parents wage

4) can afford decent clothes and toys for my own kids. also a decent russian wife (have u seen them, fit as....)

5) decide to send kids to best schoool i can afford so they get better start than me.

Point out the error in my ways. selfishness aside. also all points about my russian bridge will be redirected to http://www.brides.ru
J
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KaiserSoze
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(Original post by llama boy)
"For people" I can only take to mean parents.

And that's just it - it's about the parents' right to fight their child into a better school at the expense of other children with less interested/skillful/manipulative/middle class/whatever parents.

Any meritocracy must be based on the merits of the child not the parent. The best way to give children the "choice" of which you talk is to not allow such discrepancies of standards to occur so early.
Something that is always puzzling in any debate involving private schools is that there is an assumption that somehow those who go to them are doing so at the expense of state school pupils, or are taking something away from them.

In fact the opposite is true, without the significant numbers of private school pupils the state school funding system would collapse; the fact is that parents who send their children to private schools are paying twice for their education; the money they pay in taxes still goes to the state school budget. Of course there is an obivious problem if the very fact people go to to a private school somehow entitles them to a university place due to bias - this would be obviously unfair, but universities now are doing everything that is feasibly possible to level the playing field and base their decisions on the 'merits of the child' which as you say is essential to any reasonable system.

Private schools currently have their place just as private healthcare does - the task is to make the state system good enough that there is no reason to go private, rather than removing any kind of choice.
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Tnacilppa
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That is just about the stupidest thing I have heard anyone say! If you want to make everyone attend "bog-standard" schools than you seriously need to reconsider why! Apart from anything else imagine the problems it would cause. 15% of the people at school are at private schools, and yet, their parents pay taxes towards state-schools (generally in the higher tax-bracket). This means that state schools receive a considerable amount of funding from the parents of private school kids. Not only this, but those who provide this high level of support are not even a drain on the resources. My parents pay as much tax towards state schools as anyone else in this country, but I don't go to state school and am therefore not having to be paid for out of this money. What you are suggesting would be the final straw for many of the less well-off state schools.

What's more, would you advocate making everyone buy economy toothpaste, economy shreddies and economy kitchen-paper? If not, then why should you take away the choice (of what is quite clearly in my opinion) a better education. At a state primary school I was in a class of 30 kids minimum. Now, I have 5 others in my English class and have 1 to 1 French and German because no-one else chose to study them.

Frankly what you are suggesting would be bad for the state schools which are often already stuggling to find teachers and facilities. It would also be bad for those whose parents (or as in my case grandparents) can send their kids to private schools. Why impose mediocrity on everyone because you (like many state school students) have a chip on your shoulder.

Academic success can be achieved at most schools - that takes hard work. But what many of the good private schools provide is much much more than that. To inflict a state education on everyone would be a. bad for state schools, b. bad for democracy and c. bad for those who can fund a private education.

Adam
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fishpaste
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You really are highlighting your own flaws, is it any wonder that inner city comprehensives are struggling to retain good staff when the staff can get a much cushier job down the road at the nearest private establishment, and most importantly, at least a £5000 pay rise?

Using economy toilet paper will not impair your ability to earn the wages to afford the best toilet paper in the future, going to a school where you have little hope getting more than a few Cs does. It's gross inequity.

You are wrong when you say academic success can be achieved at most schools, bad schooling can screw up the best scholars (seen it happen), average schooling can put many off. It really is about time that schooling stopped being a two tier system, and everybody had the opportunity to be taught by the best teachers, have access to the best facilities, and not be limited by money or family attitudes.
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fishpaste
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(Original post by KaiserSoze)
Private schools currently have their place just as private healthcare does - the task is to make the state system good enough that there is no reason to go private, rather than removing any kind of choice.
That might be a bit hard when the private schools perpetually overbid for the best resources.
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Tnacilppa
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(Original post by fishpaste)
You really are highlighting your own flaws, is it any wonder that inner city comprehensives are struggling to retain good staff when the staff can get a much cushier job down the road at the nearest private establishment, and most importantly, at least a £5000 pay rise?

Using economy toilet paper will not impair your ability to earn the wages to afford the best toilet paper in the future, going to a school where you have little hope getting more than a few Cs does. It's gross inequity.

You are wrong when you say academic success can be achieved at most schools, bad schooling can screw up the best scholars (seen it happen), average schooling can put many off. It really is about time that schooling stopped being a two tier system, and everybody had the opportunity to be taught by the best teachers, have access to the best facilities, and not be limited by money or family attitudes.
All I can say is chip and shoulder.

To say that teachers at private schools are considerably better paid than teachers at state schools is ridiculous.

My school gives chemistry equipment to a local state school. People from state schools come in to use our music recording and drama facilities. I am not saying this because I feel my school should be thanked for this but simply because I can't stand the anti-public school feeling which is perpetuated just about everywhere.

Besides, you cannot force teachers to teach in schools where they are subject to unenthusiasm, violence and a generally crap attitude. A teacher who came to my school last year did so because she was basically abused by the kids at her inner-city state school. She was held at gunpoint. She was subject to a total lack of interest in any academic work. Is it suprising that given half the chance most teachers would like to teach at a private school?

What about the NHS? Should everyone be forced to hang around on never-ending waiting lists? People who earn money do so because they are motivated, hard-working and willing to make sacrifices. They should not be penalised for being successful.

What you are suggesting is in fact not a general rise in in standard of education. If private schools were abolished the standard would drop. A dumbing down is what you are effectively suggesting. People who have enough money to send their kids to private schools should be able to do so without guilt.

People who would succeed would probably do so anyway. Bill Gates left school at 16 and is now the richest man in the world. I think that people blame their schooling for their failures. How would dragging everyone down into the state-school system help? In fact all it would do is icrease class sizes even more!

Adam
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Tnacilppa
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(Original post by neildm)
To Adam who posted:
"Besides, you cannot force teachers to teach in schools where they are subject to unenthusiasm, violence and a generally crap attitude."

I wonder whether the unenthusiasm, violence and generally crap attitude is cause, or effect?
Does it really matter is the question? It is true that this is the case in many state-schools. I think that these issues put off a lot of teachers so if anything it is cause.

I'm sorry if this sounds very Conservative of me (because I am not), but I think it is fair to say we do live in a society with fairly clear social divisions. I read an atricle (in the Guardian) which suggested that the children of professional parents have a wider vocabulary than parents (not a typo!) on state-benefits.

Some people want to learn and do well in life. Others (and again I feel it is often those whose parents cannot or cannot be bothered to get a good job) want to drink, watch tv, go out and not care about the future. In general, children of motivated parents are more likely to be motivated themselves. Children whose parents sit around all day living off state welfare are less likely to be motivated. Sad? Yes. True? Yes.

What does this have to do with private and state education? In this country schooling is compulsary until 16. Those who are at private schools are (by far) more likely to carry on into a. the VIth form and B. university. This is because they tend to be more motivated and want to be at school. It is impossible to have a good academic atmosphere at a school where many students don't want to be there. This is why there is the division.

I realise that there are exceptions to the rule. Howver, I am willing to defend what I have said because it is the (if slightly contraversial!) truth.

Adam
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Mentally Ill
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(Original post by Tnacilppa)

All I can say is chip and shoulder.

To say that teachers at private schools are considerably better paid than teachers at state schools is ridiculous.

My school gives chemistry equipment to a local state school. People from state schools come in to use our music recording and drama facilities. I am not saying this because I feel my school should be thanked for this but simply because I can't stand the anti-public school feeling which is perpetuated just about everywhere.

Besides, you cannot force teachers to teach in schools where they are subject to unenthusiasm, violence and a generally crap attitude. A teacher who came to my school last year did so because she was basically abused by the kids at her inner-city state school. She was held at gunpoint. She was subject to a total lack of interest in any academic work. Is it suprising that given half the chance most teachers would like to teach at a private school?

What about the NHS? Should everyone be forced to hang around on never-ending waiting lists? People who earn money do so because they are motivated, hard-working and willing to make sacrifices. They should not be penalised for being successful.

What you are suggesting is in fact not a general rise in in standard of education. If private schools were abolished the standard would drop. A dumbing down is what you are effectively suggesting. People who have enough money to send their kids to private schools should be able to do so without guilt.

People who would succeed would probably do so anyway. Bill Gates left school at 16 and is now the richest man in the world. I think that people blame their schooling for their failures. How would dragging everyone down into the state-school system help? In fact all it would do is icrease class sizes even more!

Adam
Actually Adam, you have said a lot more than that.
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RoyFester
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(Original post by leda swanson)
i've just been reading a somewhat argumentative thread about discrimination against state educated students by those who have enjoyed the massive good fortune of an independent education. or, woe betide, vice versa.

which made me think, what do you think, why don't we outlaw and ABOLISH PRIVATE SCHOOLS once and for all? make everyone attend a bog-standard blair-funded comp? this being the only honest route to meritocracy- right?

uk learning should be a right, not a privilege. nobody should be more equal than anybody else.
Correct. Let everyone grow up in the real world. Those born into well off families shouldn't get an easier route to success.
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Tnacilppa
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Communism doesn't work.
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