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    (Original post by talespirit)
    they're well represented in the bar because most people already in the bar are Oxbridge graduates....it's a vicious cycle. THe bar is a place of posh, over qualified, upper-middle to upper class destination...of which oxbridge provides a plenty. It's also because they can choose. Why pick anything less when you can have oxbridge?
    Seconded. The reason they're well-represented at the bar is an obvious one when you factor in (i) the importance of academic achievement and (ii) the limited availability of pupillages.
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    I know what you guys are saying and I think it has some truth to it. But we also need to factor in how many do Oxford and Camrbdige produce in a year. Maybe there are also too many of them (compared to other unis with strong law programs.) Warwick, for example, isn't very well represented, though they have representatives. But then again, not a lot of students graduate with a law degree from Warwick. Don't get me wrong. I am only trying to get a more clearer picture here.
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    (Original post by Mr. Roxas)
    I know what you guys are saying and I think it has some truth to it. But we also need to factor in how many do Oxford and Camrbdige produce in a year. Maybe there are also too many of them (compared to other unis with strong law programs.) Warwick, for example, isn't very well represented, though they have representatives. But then again, not a lot of students graduate with a law degree from Warwick. Don't get me wrong. I am only trying to get a more clearer picture here.
    180 had qualifying law degrees last year from Warwick. Oxford has about 235 a year. Not such a big size difference.
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    (Original post by talespirit)
    THe bar is a place of posh, over qualified, upper-middle to upper class destination...of which oxbridge provides a plenty.
    What on earth does this mean?
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    (Original post by chalks)
    What on earth does this mean?
    it means if you're not in the top unis listed several posts above, you're stuffed if you want to get to the bar

    Unless, of course, you get a 1st
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    (Original post by alipally94)
    I didn't know there were specific rules regarding grammar on here, but thanks so much for telling me. <sarcasm>
    There are no rules regarding grammar in a Law report either.
    That does not mean good grammar is not expected
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    (Original post by talespirit)
    it means if you're not in the top unis listed several posts above, you're stuffed if you want to get to the bar

    Unless, of course, you get a 1st
    So why do say that they're "posh and overqualified"?
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    (Original post by chalks)
    So why do say that they're "posh and overqualified"?
    Cuz i've seen it.
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    (Original post by talespirit)
    they're well represented in the bar because most people already in the bar are Oxbridge graduates....it's a vicious cycle. THe bar is a place of posh, over qualified, upper-middle to upper class destination...of which oxbridge provides a plenty. It's also because they can choose. Why pick anything less when you can have oxbridge?
    I find that really discouraging. :sigh:
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    Yorks got a damn fine course, but no graduate stats yet we've got a nice building tho!
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    (Original post by talespirit)
    Cuz i've seen it.
    Seen what? The "poshness", the fact that people are "overqualified" (although goodness knows what you mean by that)?
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    (Original post by Ferrero Rocher)
    I find that really discouraging. :sigh:
    Don't be.

    Do your research and understand the types of people entering the Bar. Does the Bar require stellar academics from the best institutions in the country? Yes. Does the Bar recruit people from certain schools and Universities because of some sort of inappropriate institutional bias? I don't believe so.
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    (Original post by Rfc_07)
    you won't get into uni fullstop with grammatical capabilities like that. 'Unis'. Not Uni's. Sigh.
    ...get over yourself.
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    I'll ignore whatever the rest of the cretins put. (Unless you're a cretin, you shouldn't be offended.)

    Oxbridge
    UCL/LSE/Durham
    KCL/Warwick/Bristol

    The second and third line have VERY minimal things between them.
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    (Original post by draikzer)
    I'll ignore whatever the rest of the cretins put. (Unless you're a cretin, you shouldn't be offended.)

    Oxbridge
    UEA/LSE/Durham
    KCL/Warwick/Bristol

    The second and third line have VERY minimal things between them.
    Agreed
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    (Original post by chalks)
    Don't be.

    Do your research and understand the types of people entering the Bar. Does the Bar require stellar academics from the best institutions in the country? Yes. Does the Bar recruit people from certain schools and Universities because of some sort of inappropriate institutional bias? I don't believe so.
    Exactly. I'd like to think the Bar is becoming more meritocratic.

    Talespirit- you seem to simultaneously accuse the Bar of being an old boys club and a profession inaccessible unless you're a member of the "academic elite" (whatever that means). It can't be both can it? The more likely explanation is simply that it demands high academic standards, and these high standards, as a broad rule, are likely to be found at the very best universities. Given that a lot of the job comprises of the barrister giving "expert" or"specialised" advice in both a written and oral format to his solicitor and lay client, this is not so unreasonable is it?

    I'd also like to point out that these exacting standards often exist at the London Chancery Bar, but that they are less present at the Criminal and Regional Bar. If people have say 2.1s from a mid or high-ranking university and still have a burning ambition to be a barrister then this is a route they should consider. I'd still definitely consider the regional Bar if I can't get pupillage in London. Birmingham, Bristol, Manchester, Leeds- they all have vibrant legal scenes.
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    (Original post by AdamTJ)
    Exactly. I'd like to think the Bar is becoming more meritocratic.

    Talespirit- you seem to simultaneously accuse the Bar of being an old boys club and a profession inaccessible unless you're a member of the "academic elite" (whatever that means). It can't be both can it? The more likely explanation is simply that it demands high academic standards, and these high standards, as a broad rule, are likely to be found at the very best universities. Given that a lot of the job comprises of the barrister giving "expert" or"specialised" advice in both a written and oral format to his solicitor and lay client, this is not so unreasonable is it?

    I'd also like to point out that these exacting standards often exist at the London Chancery Bar, but that they are less present at the Criminal and Regional Bar. If people have say 2.1s from a mid or high-ranking university and still have a burning ambition to be a barrister then this is a route they should consider. I'd still definitely consider the regional Bar if I can't get pupillage in London. Birmingham, Bristol, Manchester, Leeds- they all have vibrant legal scenes.
    it's not just academic elite, but also social elite. If you're anything but, and end up making it in there anyway. You just won't fit in. I'm sure reginal Bar is less bad, but not much different.

    I may have very little faith in the bar or legal profession as a whole, this is just me. I'm just putting my own view and experiences (and my friends' views and experiences) across as a final year law student. I started out as optimistic as all of you, but a law degree changes a person and their view on the world, dramatically.

    It's cut throat. People steal books they dont need just so other people wont have access to them, rip pages out of books they can't take out, tell 'friends' wrong information to mislead them. Most people will not befriend you if they have nothing they can gain from you. It's not what you're capable of but also who you know, nepotism is alive and well. Sure, if you're a 1st class student, it wouldn't matter. But only about 7% of the entire year make that grade. If you dont have a 2:1, forget the bar (which already excludes half the yeargroup (a yeargroup which includes everyone who got 3A's+ at A-level). In addition to this of course, all who will apply and compete with you will also do loads of extra-curricular and RUN these extra-curricular societies. You gotta know multiple languages, and do a bunch of law-related extra-curricular stuff (debating, mooting, law clinic). You're also competing with people not in your yeargroup (those who graduated before, and non-lawyers who want to do law conversion course). The UK economy is suffering and there are job cuts everywhere, so good luck to you future lawyers.

    So think about it. You may not even want to still go for the Bar later on, who knows?

    It's discouraging, but it's no where near as discouraging as other discouraging things you'll be finding out on your journey to join the bar or a city law firm. You need ambition and a firm conviction to enter and survive this profession. Do it because you want to, not because you have nothing better to do, or you think it will bring you money and prestige (there are other things you can do to get these that are alot less stressful). It's a hard degree, very hard, and without the love for the subject it'll burn you out real soon.


    I know i'm bitter and stressed cuz final exams are coming up and i've got 2 courseworks due in within 2 weeks. Good luck all of you whatever academic stage you're on.
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    (Original post by draikzer)
    I'll ignore whatever the rest of the cretins put. (Unless you're a cretin, you shouldn't be offended.)

    Oxbridge
    UCL/LSE/Durham
    KCL/Warwick/Bristol

    The second and third line have VERY minimal things between them.
    I, sir, take TURBO-OFFENCE.

    Anyway, I'd put Nottingham in that last bracket in place of Warwick. There's negligible difference in terms of quality of institution, but Notts has greater employment rates for law.

    EDIT: Oh dear, someone can't handle the truth. Here are the stats: http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/...sity-guide-law
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    (Original post by talespirit)
    it's not just academic elite, but also social elite. If you're anything but, and end up making it in there anyway. You just won't fit in. I'm sure reginal Bar is less bad, but not much different.

    I may have very little faith in the bar or legal profession as a whole, this is just me. I'm just putting my own view and experiences (and my friends' views and experiences) across as a final year law student. I started out as optimistic as all of you, but a law degree changes a person and their view on the world, dramatically.

    It's cut throat. People steal books they dont need just so other people wont have access to them, rip pages out of books they can't take out, tell 'friends' wrong information to mislead them. Most people will not befriend you if they have nothing they can gain from you. It's not what you're capable of but also who you know, nepotism is alive and well. Sure, if you're a 1st class student, it wouldn't matter. But only about 7% of the entire year make that grade. If you dont have a 2:1, forget the bar (which already excludes half the yeargroup (a yeargroup which includes everyone who got 3A's+ at A-level). In addition to this of course, all who will apply and compete with you will also do loads of extra-curricular and RUN these extra-curricular societies. You gotta know multiple languages, and do a bunch of law-related extra-curricular stuff (debating, mooting, law clinic). You're also competing with people not in your yeargroup (those who graduated before, and non-lawyers who want to do law conversion course). The UK economy is suffering and there are job cuts everywhere, so good luck to you future lawyers.

    So think about it. You may not even want to still go for the Bar later on, who knows?

    It's discouraging, but it's no where near as discouraging as other discouraging things you'll be finding out on your journey to join the bar or a city law firm. You need ambition and a firm conviction to enter and survive this profession. Do it because you want to, not because you have nothing better to do, or you think it will bring you money and prestige (there are other things you can do to get these that are alot less stressful). It's a hard degree, very hard, and without the love for the subject it'll burn you out real soon.


    I know i'm bitter and stressed cuz final exams are coming up and i've got 2 courseworks due in within 2 weeks. Good luck all of you whatever academic stage you're on.
    Bit of a nihilistic post. Hey-ho, stiff upper lip what what.
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    (Original post by talespirit)
    it's not just academic elite, but also social elite. If you're anything but, and end up making it in there anyway. You just won't fit in. I'm sure reginal Bar is less bad, but not much different.

    I may have very little faith in the bar or legal profession as a whole, this is just me. I'm just putting my own view and experiences (and my friends' views and experiences) across as a final year law student. I started out as optimistic as all of you, but a law degree changes a person and their view on the world, dramatically.

    It's cut throat. People steal books they dont need just so other people wont have access to them, rip pages out of books they can't take out, tell 'friends' wrong information to mislead them. Most people will not befriend you if they have nothing they can gain from you. It's not what you're capable of but also who you know, nepotism is alive and well. Sure, if you're a 1st class student, it wouldn't matter. But only about 7% of the entire year make that grade. If you dont have a 2:1, forget the bar (which already excludes half the yeargroup (a yeargroup which includes everyone who got 3A's+ at A-level). In addition to this of course, all who will apply and compete with you will also do loads of extra-curricular and RUN these extra-curricular societies. You gotta know multiple languages, and do a bunch of law-related extra-curricular stuff (debating, mooting, law clinic). You're also competing with people not in your yeargroup (those who graduated before, and non-lawyers who want to do law conversion course). The UK economy is suffering and there are job cuts everywhere, so good luck to you future lawyers.

    So think about it. You may not even want to still go for the Bar later on, who knows?

    It's discouraging, but it's no where near as discouraging as other discouraging things you'll be finding out on your journey to join the bar or a city law firm. You need ambition and a firm conviction to enter and survive this profession. Do it because you want to, not because you have nothing better to do, or you think it will bring you money and prestige (there are other things you can do to get these that are alot less stressful). It's a hard degree, very hard, and without the love for the subject it'll burn you out real soon.


    I know i'm bitter and stressed cuz final exams are coming up and i've got 2 courseworks due in within 2 weeks. Good luck all of you whatever academic stage you're on.
    I just completely disagree with this (aside from the last couple of paragraphs). Firstly re your experience of a law degree. I'm sorry to hear about it. I completely empathise with the stress you are feeling now. There's nothing like finals to bring it all to a head. However, my experience was very different. I had a lovely group of friends, all of whom were extremely supportive. We shared resources, called each other up if we didn't understand points of law and needed them explaining and generally had a very good relationship with each other. I didn't see much of the "cut-throat" mentality you describe. Yes, we knew we were competing against each other, but we all knew it was better not to tread on people on the way up, lest you meet them again on the way back down. Oh- and we liked each other.

    Secondly- the city law firms are recovering from the downturn. They are employing in high numbers again. Competition is a fact of life. If you want to work for the best, you have to be the best. I don't really see the problem with that. You do not have to have learnt multiple languages, or have a CV as long as someone's arm (in fact I'd say keep it to 2 pages max!). You have had ample opportunity to get involved in extra-curriculars at university yourself, and presumably you would have been aware of the need to do them, so what was stopping you? What is most important, however, is that you are engaging and articulate at interview, well-researched and commercially aware.

    Thirdly- the Bar is becoming more meritocratic, it's as simple as that. You don't have to speak with a ludicrously "posh" accent any more. Yes it is dominated by people with firsts from good universities but that is because it is a small but prestigious profession, and the laws of supply and demand would indicate that was inevitable. I honestly believe though, that if you are good enough to be at the Bar, you will make it, regardless of background. The boundaries that were there simply don't exist any more.
 
 
 

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