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    (Original post by badtothebone)
    sorry but do you really beleive all that tory propaganda? are you telling me that no nurses, policemen youth centres etc are going to be cut?

    if that is you're argument against delaying spending cuts then why arnt you for implementing the full cuts to the deficit NOW rather than over 4 years... that way there is less interest being paid......hard earned taxes.....blah etc. why are u waiting for 4 years?

    I would rather keep our services - invest in them which would lead to economic growth and then pay debt off over a long period of time. this was done in WW2 when the debt was three times as high and we set up the NHS nationalised 20% of the economy built houses etc. Lets remember its not the policman who will lose his job or the youth centre that caused the debt - therefore why are they being made to pay it!
    There is a massive consensus other than with socialists like yourself that there is masssive waste. I don't get hooked by tory propaganda, in fact i've been rather critical in recent years.

    As i've said i would deal with the situation differrently. I would have far more public spending cuts, whilst at the same time cutting taxes on business large and small and personal taxes on the poor and wealthy in order to stimulate a private sector led recovery whichprovides proper jobs not non-jobs in the public sector.
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    (Original post by badtothebone)
    manufactoring can be owned by the public sector.
    I'll give you two words why thats a bad idea:

    British Leyland.

    Go and do some research on it, you'll see just how bad an industry thats been nationalised can get - especially when you add a bunch of militant union members into the equation as well.
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    (Original post by Llamageddon)
    Overproduction is overall a marginal economic issue, and being out of stock or oversupplied is logistical incompetence which under our economic system makes the business and model less likely to succeed and thus be filtered out.
    And how do you propose to suppress individuals without a "brutal beurocracy"? (it's bureaucracy btw). You've simply moved from a system that shouldn't be tried to a system that can't be tried.
    There's a market for cheap beans so they exist. I buy a lot of tesco value stuff and excluding their meat (which is disgusting, so I make the CHOICE of going elsewhere) it's fairly good.
    you've missed the point. There is only a market for cheaop beans because people are on a tight budget - they don't exist becuase they taste better! to think about a bottom up approach you need to look at something like Chester FC. Chester are owned by the fans and the fans elect a board. the board is held accountable by the fans. There are monthly meetings where they are asked questions and its very transparent. If people are unhappy with the board they can make it be known and if they are still not happy they can stand for election. That is fans democracy. Imagine a similiar set up with workers democracy.
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    (Original post by usainlightning)
    There is a massive consensus other than with socialists like yourself that there is masssive waste. I don't get hooked by tory propaganda, in fact i've been rather critical in recent years.

    As i've said i would deal with the situation differrently. I would have far more public spending cuts, whilst at the same time cutting taxes on business large and small and personal taxes on the poor and wealthy in order to stimulate a private sector led recovery whichprovides proper jobs not non-jobs in the public sector.
    Here is a simple question.....will the cuts mean police, nurses and youth centres are cut?

    here is another simple question.....what is stopping you from cutting 81bn IMMEDIATLY?
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    (Original post by badtothebone)
    Here is a simple question.....will the cuts mean police, nurses and youth centres are cut?

    here is another simple question.....what is stopping you from cutting 81bn IMMEDIATLY?
    Yes.

    Nothing, but the shock to the economy would be too high.

    Any others?
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    (Original post by Heinz the German)
    I'll give you two words why thats a bad idea:

    British Leyland.

    Go and do some research on it, you'll see just how bad an industry thats been nationalised can get - especially when you add a bunch of militant union members into the equation as well.
    You talk as though private sector manufacturing is always awesome.

    It wasn't just British Leyland being abysmal you know...
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    (Original post by badtothebone)
    lol. you're a political self harmer. YOU are facing a decrease in your income through pay cuts and a lose of hours. YOU did not cause the recession which has led to this happening and yet you want to just lie down and take it like a b*tch and hope that some rhetoric about the neccessity of cuts in public spending makes it ok. you realise that the richest people are getting richer whilst you are facing cuts in hours and pay don't you?
    Look, I don't want to into much details about my family income but we earn enough unearned income through our properties than my family earns though our business. Thanks for being concerned about me about I can assure you I will not end homeless. I am not replying to anymore of your posts so don't bother quoting me.
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    (Original post by HomeoApathy92)
    so about 50 000 i think should be there
    its guna be BIG
    but i dont know if anything will actually kick off
    Big ****ing deal - The Emirates stadium has 60,000 people attending every week.. by your logic we're in greater danger of Arsenal fans over throwing the country.
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    (Original post by obins)
    Big ****ing deal - The Emirates stadium has 60,000 people attending every week.. by your logic we're in greater danger of Arsenal fans over throwing the country.
    its more liekly to be quater of million
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    (Original post by badtothebone)
    its more liekly to be quater of million
    Thats still nothing. And I highly doubt they will get that many people in. Even if they do 60 million other people did not show up.
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    (Original post by Aj12)
    Thats still nothing. And I highly doubt they will get that many people in. Even if they do 60 million other people did not show up.
    thats not the way to look at it. first you have to take off people in prison who cant make it. then you have take off ill, injured, disables or generally old people who cant make it, ten people who are too young, then people who are working and cant get the day off, then people who cant afford it, the people who cant get there people who may not ahve heard about the march etc.

    But specifically how many people would turn up for a demonstration in support of the cuts!
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    (Original post by badtothebone)
    thats not the way to look at it. first you have to take off people in prison who cant make it. then you have take off ill, injured, disables or generally old people who cant make it, ten people who are too young, then people who are working and cant get the day off, then people who cant afford it, the people who cant get there people who may not ahve heard about the march etc.

    But specifically how many people would turn up for a demonstration in support of the cuts!
    None because its not that kind of issue. When are there ever rotests in support of the gov
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    (Original post by badtothebone)
    thats not the way to look at it. first you have to take off people in prison who cant make it. then you have take off ill, injured, disables or generally old people who cant make it, ten people who are too young, then people who are working and cant get the day off, then people who cant afford it, the people who cant get there people who may not ahve heard about the march etc.
    And the people you're left with are those with little to gain by our economy going down the drain, because they are themselves net recipients from the state. No wonder they're out protesting on a nice saturday afternoon; Protesting reforms that might make their affluent, idle lives marginally less affluent and idle.
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    If people are protesting then their obviously doing something right lol. Their were protests today in durham and 12 people attended lol.
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    (Original post by Aj12)
    None because its not that kind of issue. When are there ever rotests in support of the gov
    funny you should say that when we are seeing people fighting with Gaddafi! lol but interms of people fighting for a better cause........ you wouldn't think it ever happens but it does when they shoe leadership. 50,000 people demonstrated in supprt of liverpool city council in the 80s when they refused to pass on thatchers cuts. simiarly in 1921 in poplar in east london.
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    (Original post by badtothebone)
    Here is a simple question.....will the cuts mean police, nurses and youth centres are cut?

    here is another simple question.....what is stopping you from cutting 81bn IMMEDIATLY?
    There will be cuts in police numbers, however Labour put vast numbers of police officers in back office functions and in Human resources, which is totally pointless. This has lead to 11% of the available police force being on the streets at any one time. Hence through reform you can make the police force on the whole more effective with a lower budget,

    My mother is a nurse so i hope not. The signs are good however, NHS spending has been protected, labour are proposing to cut it.

    I really couldn't give a dam about youth centres, kids should take some responsibilty and create fun without using public resources.

    You didn't read my answer on cuts clearly. Of course you cpuld, however that is not the strategy set out by the government, which is guess was partly a political decision to prevent them from being almost unelectable.
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    (Original post by CyclopsRock)
    And the people you're left with are those with little to gain by our economy going down the drain, because they are themselves net recipients from the state. No wonder they're out protesting on a nice saturday afternoon; Protesting reforms that might make their affluent, idle lives marginally less affluent and idle.
    if they are affluent whatis wrong with them protesting when they havnt done anything to warrant their wealth being taken away.

    the main point tho is that it is not the affluant who are protesting. many people work hard for many hours. those people do exist you know!
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    (Original post by usainlightning)
    There will be cuts in police numbers, however Labour put vast numbers of police officers in back office functions and in Human resources, which is totally pointless. This has lead to 11% of the available police force being on the streets at any one time. Hence through reform you can make the police force on the whole more effective with a lower budget,
    so now you are admitting that police will be cut - good thats progress. now here is a question - the police who are going to be cut did not cause the recession, so why are they paying for it with their jobs!

    now this seems to be a tory disease....whenever a tory is forced to admit to an unpopular policy they then start shrieking about labour! there's no need we know what labour are like, here we are talking about the tories so keep on that party.

    (Original post by usainlightning)
    My mother is a nurse so i hope not. The signs are good however, NHS spending has been protected, labour are proposing to cut it.

    I really couldn't give a dam about youth centres, kids should take some responsibilty and create fun without using public resources.

    You didn't read my answer on cuts clearly. Of course you cpuld, however that is not the strategy set out by the government, which is guess was partly a political decision to prevent them from being almost unelectable.
    Ok, you may have swalled a lot f tory propaganda so this may hurt. Nurses WILL lose their jobs! the NHS is NOT i repeat NOT being protected. that was a lie. some details here. i hope your mum isnt affected. http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datab.../nhs-cuts-list but again keep labour out of it. Truth is labour will cut it, Tories and Lib Dem ARE cutting it. It doesnt matter who does the cutting, less nurses are bad whoever does it.

    you will give damn about youth centres closing if crime goes up in your area and you're a victim of it! also a lot of kids are from neglected housholds and its one of the few things they've got. Its not right that those kids should suffer when...gues what, they didnt cause the recession!

    The reason you cannot cut it IMMEDIATLY is becase a) they would be a riot 2) the economy would collpase. but both things will happen anyway as over 4 years is not over a long enough period. that said you dont actually need to cut at all (realise that may sound like i've just decalred i can fly to the shops to a tory, but it does happen to be true!lol)
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    (Original post by badtothebone)
    if they are affluent whatis wrong with them protesting when they havnt done anything to warrant their wealth being taken away.

    the main point tho is that it is not the affluant who are protesting. many people work hard for many hours. those people do exist you know!

    mate you are ridiculously naive. I live in the north, my grandad was a miner, Im labour to the core, but tony blairs labour, not red eds socialist army (biggest mistake ever not picking dave).

    what you espouse is pure unarticulated socialism bordering on communism. its a minority view that is both extreme and impractical. you want to make a practical stand (that is protest) with an impractical bandwagon (socialism is not the primary political view of our nation).

    MOST people, are either centre right (a la the more rational tories) or centre left (a la new labour). we dont want nationalised industries. we tried that. they were crap. likewise we dont want victorian england with no public sector either.

    we need to support the vulnerable through the private sector supporting a robust public sector the burden of which doesnt kill the cow for the milk.

    you view the world through red tinted spectacles, which i suspect is the extremity and ignorance of youth. you might as well say we should have a european superstate tomorrow, or we should retake the colonies.

    we will never go back to the 70s because they were crap, or the 80s because they were pretty crap too. 1997 to 2008 were awesome. thats where we wanna be again.
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    (Original post by LiveFastDieYoung)
    mate you are ridiculously naive. I live in the north, my grandad was a miner, Im labour to the core, but tony blairs labour, not red eds socialist army (biggest mistake ever not picking dave).

    what you espouse is pure unarticulated socialism bordering on communism. its a minority view that is both extreme and impractical. you want to make a practical stand (that is protest) with an impractical bandwagon (socialism is not the primary political view of our nation).

    MOST people, are either centre right (a la the more rational tories) or centre left (a la new labour). we dont want nationalised industries. we tried that. they were crap. likewise we dont want victorian england with no public sector either.

    we need to support the vulnerable through the private sector supporting a robust public sector the burden of which doesnt kill the cow for the milk.

    you view the world through red tinted spectacles, which i suspect is the extremity and ignorance of youth. you might as well say we should have a european superstate tomorrow, or we should retake the colonies.

    we will never go back to the 70s because they were crap, or the 80s because they were pretty crap too. 1997 to 2008 were awesome. thats where we wanna be again.
    you need to read you're labour history......there was a time when everyone was either a liberal or a tory and a group o people decided to form the labour party. people thought they were crazy, that they were spillting the liberal vote and would let the tories in, that people didnt want a labout party. they were right. labour got a kicking in their first election something like 1.8%

    Now the difference between me and you is that you take a snapshot of current society and analyse it, and there is nothing wrong with that, and then decide wat people want and act on it by voting labour or tory or whateva. However that is all you do. What you don't realise is that things change. and the labour party grew from that 1st election and are now eventually in the bracket that the liberals were in when labour was first set up. so the lesson to learn here is things are in a constant state of flux, i.e. things change, rather than stay fixed, and thats why its worth fighting for socialism because it won't always be like this. its a simple point really and i hope that helps explain it.

    2008 was crap thats when everything crashed! further it crashed becauase of all the good work leading up to it. i.e. it didnt just fall from the skies - it was a process.
 
 
 
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