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We must privatise the NHS now watch

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    (Original post by Emaemmaemily)
    I'm saying it'll happen naturally... There's no forcing people to do anything.

    1. To help cure people...
    2. Because if you don't, you will not receive the money for your food.
    3. Of course you won't be forced.
    So it doesn't bother you, then if a me and a few buddies go off somewhere organise our own society where private property is legitimate and I employ them to work for me for cash?

    Also, preceding this voluntary society of communism where everybody joins the commune voluntary, are you and your fellows going to use force to expropriate property from the wealthy?

    If your answer to the above two questions is yes followed by no, you are not a communist so much as a communitarian which I have no problems with.

    As long as your willing to live and let live .
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    (Original post by AnarchistNutter)
    So it doesn't bother you, then if a me and a few buddies go off somewhere organise our own society where private property is legitimate and I employ them to work for me for cash?

    Also, preceding this voluntary society of communism where everybody joins the commune voluntary, are you and your fellows going to use force to expropriate property from the wealthy?

    If your answer to the above two questions is yes followed by no, you are not a communist so much as a communitarian which I have no problems with.

    As long as your willing to live and let live .
    I'm not talking about CREATING communism, I'm talking about it happening of its own accord. In which case "me and my buddies" don't need to do anything.
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    (Original post by Emaemmaemily)
    I'm not talking about CREATING communism, I'm talking about it happening of its own accord. In which case "me and my buddies" don't need to do anything.
    I see. Out of interest, how do you believe it will naturally arise, comrade?
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    (Original post by AnarchistNutter)
    I see. Out of interest, how do you believe it will naturally arise, comrade?
    It would take a serious long time to explain, but I'm fairly sure you'd be able to get various ideas on it from marxist information sites.
    The general idea is that society (largely the working-class, but eventually others) get fed up of capitalism and slowly make things change.
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    (Original post by Emaemmaemily)
    I'm saying it'll happen naturally... There's no forcing people to do anything.

    1. To help cure people...
    2. Because if you don't, you will not receive the money for your food.
    3. Of course you won't be forced.

    In a communist society, people will have been brought up on very different ways of thinking... There's won't be so much materialistic motivation at all. The focus will be on helping other people and doing what's right for the community.

    No doubt you'll tell me this isn't possible, but it is. The reason we think as we do now is because of how our society is and how we've grown up... If you grow up completely differently you will value different things.
    That is an interesting point but we are by evolution greedy. The man who shared all his food with every one went with out himself and was less likely to surive but the man who stole all his friends food when they were short is the man who survived. People because of natural selection look after themselves and even though we are now not talking about survial this greediness is still built into us.
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    (Original post by Emaemmaemily)
    It would take a serious long time to explain, but I'm fairly sure you'd be able to get various ideas on it from marxist information sites.
    The general idea is that society (largely the working-class, but eventually others) get fed up of capitalism and slowly make things change.
    And uprise, seize the state and nationalise property? Yes, I've heard it all before :rolleyes:
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    (Original post by AnarchistNutter)
    I see. Out of interest, how do you believe it will naturally arise, comrade?
    How exactly did capitalism arise if not through force?
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    (Original post by Sternumator)
    That is an interesting point but we are by evolution greedy. The man who shared all his food with every one went with out himself and was less likely to surive but the man who stole all his friends food when they were short is the man who survived. People because of natural selection look after themselves and even though we are now not talking about survial this greediness is still built into us.
    Sorry, that's BS. We evolved to be social creatures, to work in groups and support each other because in groups we're stronger and more likely to survive than alone as individuals.
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    (Original post by Captain Crash)
    How exactly did capitalism arise if not through force?
    Capitalism is just trade which presupposes private control over capital. I have never argued against force in terms of self-defence or defence of one's property (provided that property is legitimately homesteaded).

    In short, it has existed ever since man exchanged a less satisfactory state of affairs for a more satisfactory state of affairs, whether through autistic exchange or exchange with a third party.
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    certain treatments should be privatised. certain self caused illnesses shouldn't be billed to the taxpayer imo. For example: obesity, alcohol problems/drug problems. if a person drinks to the limit that their liver is damaged, how is it our fault? as opposed to a single mum, who brought up kids and now has got cancer but don't have the financial abilities to get kimo if NHs is to be privatised... I think the NHs should only give treatment for real illnesses.

    Edit: my mom is a diabetic and i know if i were to pay for her bills, she would be a million times more careful with her diet, although she's not fat.... Irresponsibility should not be rewarded.
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    (Original post by AnarchistNutter)
    And uprise, seize the state and nationalise property? Yes, I've heard it all before :rolleyes:
    No. But i can't be bothered for tonight.
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    (Original post by Captain Crash)
    Sorry, that's BS. We evolved to be social creatures, to work in groups and support each other because in groups we're stronger and more likely to survive than alone as individuals.
    If we are naturally social creatures then why must we be forced into co-operation? Surely by endorsing such a belief we would naturally form communitarian fraternalities in which case there is no need for a state at all.

    (Original post by Emaemmaemily)
    No. But i can't be bothered for tonight.
    Following quote taken from the Communist Manifesto:

    1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.
    2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.
    3. Abolition of all rights of inheritance.
    4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.
    5. Centralisation of credit in the hands of the state, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly.
    6. Centralisation of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State.
    All of the bolded parts will lead to

    (a) highly autocratic despotic authoritarian dictatorship
    (b) a monolithic centralised bureacratic state planning apparatus with control over practically every part of your life
    (c) an Orwellian nightmare

    You won't achieve your goals without massive brutality and state sanctioned violence, expropriation of property rights and general bloodshed.

    Communism is a sick, evil, twisted ideology. I can understand the intellectual attraction but just give it up, really.

    I point you here just for nothing more than a small taster of the results of previous games they've played with human nature: http://www.cracked.com/article_19095...dictators.html

    There was torture, mass starvation, genocide, war and all the most sickest most twisted things you could possibly ever imagine have happened because of these 'social experiments'.
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    (Original post by Alhae)
    Our cancer survival rates are pisspoor and waiting lists are too long. The US doesn't suffer either of these problems because it is not the taxpayers that pay for everyones' healthcare, it is themselves. End the nonsense now and privatise the NHS. If you disagree with me then it shows that you cannot face the truth.
    You're a total prat, think about what you're saying before you do it! If you're so fond of private healthcare then bugger off to BUPA! The NHS is one of the best things to happen to this country. Sure, there's always going to be room for improvement, but the American health system is in a far worse state than ours. The NHS allows everyone to be treated EQUALLY and not to benefit the rich. I would lose all faith in the superior powers in this country if the NHS became privatised

    Rant over

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    (Original post by AnarchistNutter)
    If we are naturally social creatures then why must we be forced into co-operation? Surely by endorsing such a belief we would naturally form communitarian fraternalities in which case there is no need for a state at all.



    Following quote taken from the Communist Manifesto:



    All of the bolded parts will lead to

    (a) highly autocratic despotic authoritarian dictatorship
    (b) a monolithic centralised bureacratic state planning apparatus with control over practically every part of your life
    (c) an Orwellian nightmare

    You won't achieve your goals without massive brutality and state sanctioned violence, expropriation of property rights and general bloodshed.

    Communism is a sick, evil, twisted ideology. I can understand the intellectual attraction but just give it up, really.

    I point you here just for nothing more than a small taster of the results of previous games they've played with human nature: http://www.cracked.com/article_19095...dictators.html

    There was torture, mass starvation, genocide, war and all the most sickest most twisted things you could possibly ever imagine have happened because of these 'social experiments'.
    I seriously don't think you understand true communism at all.
    Please educate yourself on the topic.

    In true communism there would be no forcing anything... That manifesto, where'd you get it from?
    There are no dictators in communism...
    Bad things have happened in the past because dictators have forced their countries into changing, and called it communism when it isn't at all... What was actually in affect wasn't communism at all.

    If it ever happens, it will be the result of a revolution not forced by a government/dictator.
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    (Original post by Alhae)
    Our cancer survival rates are pisspoor and waiting lists are too long. The US doesn't suffer either of these problems because it is not the taxpayers that pay for everyones' healthcare, it is themselves. End the nonsense now and privatise the NHS. If you disagree with me then it shows that you cannot face the truth.
    People like you piss me off no end. The reason the us doesn't have long waiting lists is because 54m people in the US can't afford medical care. This bull**** conservative competetion will only increase the cost of medical care like we see in a america today. We have higher life expectancy as we.
    Lets talk about truth for a minute. I bet your at least upper-middle class. The NHS is one of the only good things about this country. Its shows it doesn't matter your class or where you live, if we implement privatisation it will. The UK is a far better country than the US with its crap politcial system. Go to any cou ntry where you have to pay for medical care and ask them what they would rather have. This truth you realise is no truth because we can sustain the health of our nation with no privatisation. I'm not saying no reform is needed but a fudamental shift like that would be wrong and stupid and thats why you have got so many thumbs down.
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    (Original post by Emaemmaemily)
    That manifesto, where'd you get it from?
    Errm...Marx.

    It would appear that you need to educate yourself on communism.
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    (Original post by AnarchistNutter)
    Errm...Marx.

    It would appear that you need to educate yourself on communism.
    Clearly not, I just wanted to know your source... Like which site and stuff.

    But you haven't really addressed any actual points.
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    (Original post by Alhae)
    Our cancer survival rates are pisspoor and waiting lists are too long. The US doesn't suffer either of these problems because it is not the taxpayers that pay for everyones' healthcare, it is themselves. End the nonsense now and privatise the NHS. If you disagree with me then it shows that you cannot face the truth.
    You mean the system that's so good that Obama wanted to adopt the UK model of a National Health Service?

    Face it, America is not perfect.
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    (Original post by Emaemmaemily)
    Clearly not, I just wanted to know your source... Like which site and stuff.

    But you haven't really addressed any actual points.
    I know what communism is supposed to be; its supposed to be the abolition of production of the commodity for exchange value (trade) in favour of the production of goods/services for use value. It is supposed to be a stateless society where distribution is allocated according to need, not ability. Many communists also advocate the abolition of workplace hierarchy and almost all advocate the abolition of division of labour in favour of work roles.

    I am not saying that communism advocates authoritarian dictatorship but that authoritarian dictatorship is the result when it is attempted.

    I didn't get the info from a site, I read the manifesto in hand: http://www.amazon.com/Communist-Mani...1395427&sr=1-1

    You can probably find it somewhere at marxists.org which is an excellent site for marxist material.

    I apologise if I sounded antagonistic, I just hate the fact everybody seems to be sucked in by left wing economic nonsense espoused by state owned broadcasting corporations like the BBC, or right wing ultra-conservative pro corporatist mind control by Rupert Murdoch; I am a Libertarian. Live and let live is my motto.

    When Marx says he thinks that communism will naturally emerge what he really means is that he thinks is that eventually the proletariat will have had enough and launch a violent revolution in which they seize the state (the dictatorship of the proletariat) and wrestle capital out of the hands of the bourgeoisie. Its an evil, evil ideology.

    I recommend you look into 'Economic Calculation in The Socialist Commonwealth' by Ludwig von Mises. It is a rather simple explanation why socialism can never possibly work.
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    (Original post by AnarchistNutter)
    Capitalism is just trade which presupposes private control over capital. I have never argued against force in terms of self-defence or defence of one's property (provided that property is legitimately homesteaded).

    In short, it has existed ever since man exchanged a less satisfactory state of affairs for a more satisfactory state of affairs, whether through autistic exchange or exchange with a third party.
    Capitalism (insofar as the meaning of accumulation of capital, i.e. enforced property rights) still depends on force to maintain it. There's also a convincing argument that it was required in the first place to acquire initial property.

    Why is this the 'right' or legitimate kind of force and the force (insofar that it is agreed by a representative democracy) that is used in socialism to redress some of the imbalances caused by capitalism is 'wrong'?
 
 
 
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