Turn on thread page Beta
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by garyedu)
    But, if for example you need medical treatment after a night out of heavy drinking. Then you should be billed in part atleast. This would hopefully get people thinking seriously about their health and how they treat their bodies.
    So what if someone was out drinking, and got randomly attacked? You still think they should be billed for it?

    Plus, any money you do raise from that would probably be spend just doing all the admin and paperwork of who should be billed or not.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    yeah get rid of the NHS as it is and send us back 100 years so that only the rich get the best/if any healthcare treatment, sound idea.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    Yeah, let's kill poor people. As a doctor-to-be I will take great pride is watching poor people die because a rich kid on the internet told me it was the right thing to do!
    Offline

    16
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Captain Crash)
    I'm curious as to how much middle management deadwood you think there is.

    In the private sector, the average percentage of turnover spent on middle management is 15%, with private sector best being around 10%.

    Now take a guess as to the percentage spent on middle management in the NHS? It's around 5%.

    There's not much fat to trim there.
    Interesting. I have read about this during the general raking of the papers etc., but I wasn't aware of those figures. Do you mind if I ask where you got them from?
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by TurboCretin)
    To be fair, the NHS is rather broke. Along with the rest of the public sector.
    its being broken by this government.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by WelshBluebird)
    And because forcing people into debt is such a good idea :rolleyes:
    Plus, a a large section of the poorer people in our country cannot get credit. So what do you suggest they do then?
    And what about people who have cancer, or dementia etc? Where the up-front costs for treatment / care would be huge. Much greater that what most normal people would be able to borrow.

    Plus, it may be a small percentage of the population, but what you are suggesting still amounts of state supported murder.
    I am sure if you found yourself in that situation you would soon change your mind.
    OK I'm going to have to back out a bit here, you're asking me to basically defend a healthcare system of which I only know the basics. My understanding of the system is that everyone has basically a medicare (the name of the system) account and you're healthcare costs are just billed to that account and you pay them off within a set time - you don't have to pay up front, the costs just go onto you're account which is what I meant by credit, it's not like you actually have to go to the bank for a loan. Obviously because it's public healthcare this is interest free and I'm sure there are all kind of allowances etc. The government don't come and repossess your house if you can't pay. The basic idea I'm trying to put forward here is that we should have a progressive system of means tested healthcare. I'm not learned in all the intricate details of the system. We just have to agree to disagree on this, I support it because of the massive savings that would be made.





    (Original post by WelshBluebird)
    You are so naive and clearly do not live in the real world.
    Not really. If you're long term homeless then you clearly aren't trying to help yourself enough. There is plenty of help you can get - you can claim benefits and you can take advantage of schemes for homeless people etc. through hostels. No, it's not a nice life but it's better than being on the streets without shelter or food. The reason I believe we have these long term homeless people is because they basically feel fed up and let down and so their mindset is just one of overwhelming pessimism. This makes it very difficult to help these people, they can only be helped if they're willing to help themselves.
    Offline

    18
    ReputationRep:
    If you can afford private healthcare, then there ARE plenty of private hospitals and services available. Most people can't afford this, and rely on the NHS... Making that private too will only make poorer people DIE of things that they may not do if they could afford better treatment.
    The NHS is one of the best things about this country, I don't understand how anyone could think we need to get rid of it.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by badtothebone)
    so you get pissed and then get started on - have a fight end up in hospital and you think they should ten have to pay some of the cost because they were drunk....how are you going to decide who has tp pay and who doesnt? think it through! healthcare should be available to all and people who abuse their bodies do this for a number of reasons but mainly because they arnt happy with themselves and their situation. you need to sort out the problems that cause the escapism etc. which lead to abuse of your own body, not erode the principles that the NHS was founded upon. fair points?
    You get pissed and then are attacked ? Then the attacker when brought to justice should be responsible for the medical bills. This could be done through unpaid work (once the initial sentence has been served) or a fine.

    People eating more and getting fatter in order to qualify for short-cut surgeries which don't address underlying problems should not be my burden to carry. I agree with helping people, but only if they are willing to help themselves.

    Personal health should be the responsibility of the individual first, then as a last resort the state's.

    Eat healthy, live healthy... be healthy!
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by garyedu)
    You get pissed and then are attacked ? Then the attacker when brought to justice should be responsible for the medical bills. This could be done through unpaid work (once the initial sentence has been served) or a fine.

    People eating more and getting fatter in order to qualify for short-cut surgeries which don't address underlying problems should not be my burden to carry. I agree with helping people, but only if they are willing to help themselves.

    Personal health should be the responsibility of the individual first, then as a last resort the state's.

    Eat healthy, live healthy... be healthy!
    That doesn't change the fact that charging certain people for NHS treatment will cause an increase in the admin needed. Not a decrease which is what most people want to see.

    Plus, I seriously doubt the number of people who are getting fatter just to qualify for surgery is that large.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by WelshBluebird)
    That doesn't change the fact that charging certain people for NHS treatment will cause an increase in the admin needed. Not a decrease which is what most people want to see.

    Plus, I seriously doubt the number of people who are getting fatter just to qualify for surgery is that large.
    OK, I admit that I haven't got a clue how it would be administrated or how much that administration would cost.

    Think about it longer term though. If we tell people now that we won't be there to prop up their ridiculously unhealthy lifestyles then maybe they might start looking after themselves a bit more.

    If they do, as the nation gets healthier the demand for the NHS will drop which should either reduce cost or drive up quality.

    The 76st family that's cost the NHS £1.2m: (but say that going on a diet isn't an option)

    That story above (albeit the DM) is what I'm on about. People are too quick to blame genetics or any other reason where they aren't to blame. It obviously wasn't their fault or the Super-size McDonalds and 10,000kcals per day. These people should be told that dieting and exercise are the recommended treatments.

    I'm honestly not a heartless *******. I just feel that we need to get rid of this dependency culture which has built up over the past decade or so.
    Offline

    8
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by garyedu)
    OK, I admit that I haven't got a clue how it would be administrated or how much that administration would cost.

    Think about it longer term though. If we tell people now that we won't be there to prop up their ridiculously unhealthy lifestyles then maybe they might start looking after themselves a bit more.

    If they do, as the nation gets healthier the demand for the NHS will drop which should either reduce cost or drive up quality.

    The 76st family that's cost the NHS £1.2m: (but say that going on a diet isn't an option)

    That story above (albeit the DM) is what I'm on about. People are too quick to blame genetics or any other reason where they aren't to blame. It obviously wasn't their fault or the Super-size McDonalds and 10,000kcals per day. These people should be told that dieting and exercise are the recommended treatments.

    I'm honestly not a heartless *******. I just feel that we need to get rid of this dependency culture which has built up over the past decade or so.
    Obesity isn't as simple to involve as diet and exercise - otherwise you think more people would do it right? The reasons that people become obese may not be genetic, but there are other factors at play including social and psychological reasons.
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    I propose the MHS; Moralistic Health Service where only those people who excercise, eat 5 fruit and veg a day, never smoke, take drugs or drink and don't shag around can get free healthcare.

    Anyone who is a fat ****, smoke, drink take drugs and slob in front of the telly will get charged big time and they still have to pay into the MHS.
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by garyedu)
    If they do, as the nation gets healthier the demand for the NHS will drop which should either reduce cost or drive up quality.

    The 76st family that's cost the NHS £1.2m: (but say that going on a diet isn't an option)

    That story above (albeit the DM) is what I'm on about. People are too quick to blame genetics or any other reason where they aren't to blame. It obviously wasn't their fault or the Super-size McDonalds and 10,000kcals per day. These people should be told that dieting and exercise are the recommended treatments.

    I'm honestly not a heartless *******. I just feel that we need to get rid of this dependency culture which has built up over the past decade or so.
    1 - You seem to be under the impression most of the demand for the NHS is because of self inflicted problems. I seriously doubt that is the case.

    2 - As I said above, no matter how the media report it, the number of people like those in your link is very small. Certainly not enouigh to warrent spending money on new procedures, new laws, new staff etc etc.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    The NHS has it's flaws but if you privatise it you are essentially minimising patient care but maximising corporate competition. This belittles the principles of Medicine and healthcare, and makes it all about profit, money and marketing, rather than caring for people.

    The only people that win in a Privatised and essentially fragmented NHS are the companies that compete for a stand in Healthcare, whose products and service are not the best but cost the private sector less.

    Privatising the NHS is essentially saying "Let them eat cake!" In Marie Antoinette's world, sure, let the poor go hungry and the rich get healthcare, but in a supposedly civilised society I say no!
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by garyedu)
    Personal health should be the responsibility of the individual first, then as a last resort the state's.
    except the individual is not a in a bubble constantly choosing logical and correct desicions. Everyone is shpaed and formed through their contact with the world. For this reason 'choice' is quite a funny concept. For many things we have no choice and in many others we are manipulated to makea choice. so i probably don't need to spell this out but think of advertiseing, people being pushed into being consumers, being working long hours and finding it easier to eat **** food etc. sort out those problems i.e. societies problems and then individuals will 'make better choices' - seemingly of their own accord that then sorts out the underl;ying problems rather than you're way which is just reactionary. oh you've made bad choices so u should pay.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by WelshBluebird)
    I seriously doubt that is the case.
    Is there anything that you don't "seriously doubt" ?


    (Original post by badtothebone)
    sort out those problems i.e. societies problems and then individuals will 'make better choices'
    Obviously any major change to the NHS would have to coincide with major changes to how we view society and how we let our society shape us.

    For example, work. There should not be a choice to work or not. If employment isn't available then voluntary work should be mandatory. Getting people out the house and more active would surely improve both their mental and physical health (as well as improving future job prospects). It would also lessen the appeal of a life on benefits which is one of societies current problems! If people have no will to work and no will to contribute to society then health care as well as other privileges should be revoked!
    Offline

    1
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Alhae)
    Our cancer survival rates are pisspoor and waiting lists are too long. The US doesn't suffer either of these problems because it is not the taxpayers that pay for everyones' healthcare, it is themselves. End the nonsense now and privatise the NHS. If you disagree with me then it shows that you cannot face the truth.
    Who says the USA don't have these problems? I've head opposites from some Americans.

    And what about the Americans who can't afford health care and have cancer? If you're poor and ill, you're ****ed.

    If you want private health care yourself, you're welcome to pay for it since there are private health care services in the UK...
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by garyedu)
    Obviously any major change to the NHS would have to coincide with major changes to how we view society and how we let our society shape us.

    For example, work. There should not be a choice to work or not. If employment isn't available then voluntary work should be mandatory. Getting people out the house and more active would surely improve both their mental and physical health (as well as improving future job prospects). It would also lessen the appeal of a life on benefits which is one of societies current problems! If people have no will to work and no will to contribute to society then health care as well as other privileges should be revoked!
    i agree that getting people out the house etc,. benefits society etc. and that then helps NHS as people are less obese etc. but If employment isnt available then rather than getting people to work for free you could create jobs. you would need a planned economy to do that. so lets say there are builders unemployed you work out what bulding work would benefit the country....lets say its affordable housing because the waiting list is long....you then co-ordinate to get people working and houses built. and exchange that for other industries. including investing in research to create higher tech industries etc.

    if jobs offer a decent wage good conditions etc. then it would be madness to stay on the dole. thats a good way to get people off dole in 2 steps 1) create jobs 2) make sure the jobs are decently paid etc.

    that could only work under a democractically planned economy tho!
    Offline

    15
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Alhae)
    Our cancer survival rates are pisspoor and waiting lists are too long. The US doesn't suffer either of these problems because it is not the taxpayers that pay for everyones' healthcare, it is themselves. End the nonsense now and privatise the NHS. If you disagree with me then it shows that you cannot face the truth.
    The US spends more than any other nation on healthcare and has the worst outcomes in a number of areas.

    If you're looking for reasons to diss the NHS, comparing it to US healthcare isn't going to further your point.
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by garyedu)
    Is there anything that you don't "seriously doubt" ?
    Oh come on. You don't need to be a rocket scientists to see that things like cancer, dementia, life long illnesses like diabeities and disabilities cost the NHS far more than people who abuse alcohol / eat too much.

    (Original post by garyedu)
    For example, work. There should not be a choice to work or not. If employment isn't available then voluntary work should be mandatory. Getting people out the house and more active would surely improve both their mental and physical health (as well as improving future job prospects). It would also lessen the appeal of a life on benefits which is one of societies current problems! If people have no will to work and no will to contribute to society then health care as well as other privileges should be revoked!
    Right. So what about people who are on benefits for other reasons? Health, disabilities, low income, carers, etc etc.

    And surely if you make voluntary work comulsary, you take out its meaning? I doubt many places will be happy to take on people who don't want to be there and are only doing it becasue they have to.

    You seem to have fallen for the daily mail and tory lie that everyone on benefits is a scrounger who can work but just doesn't want to.
 
 
 
Poll
Who is most responsible for your success at university
Useful resources

Groups associated with this forum:

View associated groups

The Student Room, Get Revising and Marked by Teachers are trading names of The Student Room Group Ltd.

Register Number: 04666380 (England and Wales), VAT No. 806 8067 22 Registered Office: International House, Queens Road, Brighton, BN1 3XE

Write a reply...
Reply
Hide
Reputation gems: You get these gems as you gain rep from other members for making good contributions and giving helpful advice.