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    Sadly - it does need to privatised.

    Having worked in it - the shocking abuse of expenses, employment laws and waste is a complete disgrace.

    It is the lead weight around the UK that is dragging the economy down.

    A good example is the fact that everyone in the EU is eligible for treatement here. I worked in a genetics department in the NHS - over 50% of the patients were non-UK residents, they also need interpretors - £50 an hour.

    Sometimes we'd book appointments that would be £150 for an interpretor, £200 for the consultant fees and guess what - no one turns up.

    Consultants also milk it - they run private clinics, charging their patients £££ - then simply move them over to the NHS for the treatment, leapfrogging the queque and charge the NHS £££££££ for the procedure.

    They make the bankers look like altruists.

    -

    Also the swathes of management consultants, middle managers etc is quite alarming.

    ITs so rampantly abused top to bottom by everyone involved in it - its simply not fit for purpose.
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    (Original post by Alhae)
    Our cancer survival rates are pisspoor and waiting lists are too long. The US doesn't suffer either of these problems because it is not the taxpayers that pay for everyones' healthcare, it is themselves. End the nonsense now and privatise the NHS. If you disagree with me then it shows that you cannot face the truth.
    So bugger off and live in the USA?
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    (Original post by davidr123)
    Sadly - it does need to privatised.

    Having worked in it - the shocking abuse of expenses, employment laws and waste is a complete disgrace.

    It is the lead weight around the UK that is dragging the economy down.

    A good example is the fact that everyone in the EU is eligible for treatement here. I worked in a genetics department in the NHS - over 50% of the patients were non-UK residents, they also need interpretors - £50 an hour.

    Sometimes we'd book appointments that would be £150 for an interpretor, £200 for the consultant fees and guess what - no one turns up.

    Consultants also milk it - they run private clinics, charging their patients £££ - then simply move them over to the NHS for the treatment, leapfrogging the queque and charge the NHS £££££££ for the procedure.

    They make the bankers look like altruists.

    -

    Also the swathes of management consultants, middle managers etc is quite alarming.

    ITs so rampantly abused top to bottom by everyone involved in it - its simply not fit for purpose.
    how would privitistation fix any of that?
    One thing you are complaining about is money and people like consultants milking it. Well under a privitised system that will be made a million times worse, with the companies running it just interested in profit, and not paitent care.
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    (Original post by Maker)
    I propose the MHS; Moralistic Health Service where only those people who excercise, eat 5 fruit and veg a day, never smoke, take drugs or drink and don't shag around can get free healthcare.

    Anyone who is a fat ****, smoke, drink take drugs and slob in front of the telly will get charged big time and they still have to pay into the MHS.
    I lol'ed :')

    It's true though - the NHS should not be privatised but people with self-inflicted illness (in certain circumstances) should be charged a fee.
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    (Original post by WelshBluebird)
    how would privitistation fix any of that?
    One thing you are complaining about is money and people like consultants milking it. Well under a privitised system that will be made a million times worse, with the companies running it just interested in profit, and not paitent care.
    Good point - let me elaborate.

    If it is privatised all the waste will be cut out - the "non-jobs".

    More money will be available to "retain customers" - its a customer based service so will focus on what patients want or fail.

    Secondly - audit/regulattion/employment:

    Being privatised means all staff are sackable, you currently have people on 1 year maternity leave or taking 6 months a year off fully paid as standard every year for getting a letter from occupational health saying they have a "bad finger" - unbelievable but true.

    This means departments gring to a halt - I temped in a department - a clinic booking department - of 5 people - 4 were off for 3 months so they had to get me in to temp:

    staff 1: off with "bad neck"
    staff 2: maternity leave 1 year, then 2 day a week flexi-time when back
    staff 3: off with "depression"
    staff 4: off on annual leave

    There are 5 staff on £18k to justify a serrvice manager who is on £30k

    That left me and 1 other person to book clinics for 8 consultnats covering teh whole of the south of England.

    I had no experience of any of the systems.

    People couldn't get appointments - often these are genetic prenatal tests where parents are waiting for results to decide whether to terminate or not - i.e. time sensitive.

    -

    This simply would not happen in a private sector system as everyone would be sacked saving over £120k a year in staff costs and the process would be booked online...

    THis is only the tip of the iceberg I saw...the audit and fudging of reports is another matter - but let me point out that unlike public sector finance scum - those who are members of the ACA or ACCA can be sacked and fined unlimited amounts when things go wrong - the classic example being Enron and Arther Anderson. Currently fraud and scamming in the NHS is not accountable to anyone as if it is reported - the trusts lose funding - so it all gets swept under the carpet.

    Carrying on - just after watching PM question time:

    Consultants - the reason why they proliferate the NHS is because all the managers are paid salaries to command incremental budgets - if they don't spend the money - THEIR post is made redundant and they lose their job. So they spend, spend, spend and spend some more to "facilitate" , "liase", "undertake change management" and all the other nonsense - they can only justify the spending by paying for external people to "consult". Often NHS managrs climb the NVQ qualification system - i.e. they are not that bright at best, and at worst - thick as **** - they need consultants who actually understand a balance sheet or the software that runs on all the NHS finances.

    If the hospitals were privatised - they'd do what banks and auditors do - slash the staff in half and get in a few able people with professional private sector qualifications to do 100 hour weeks on bonus related pay.

    The bonuses would be set on customer satisfaction, patient turnover and against targets for cancer, heart disease and stroke treatment.

    Currently all the figures are "cherry-picked" - I sat down in an office picking all cancer patients who had been seen within 2 weeks of referral to send to the National Audit Office for audit - ignoring all who hadn't been seen. it is all fudged. It is only Labour and the unions that hide behind these fudged reports - the Tories simply point to the fact we are behind France and everyone else on cancer, heart disease and strokes - that is what matters - the results for patients.

    Unfortunately the NHS is the UK's largest employer - it is used by (Labour) government to spin unemployment figures and produce "evidence" to lie to the public - NOT to provide a health service to the people whose taxes pay for it.
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    (Original post by Alhae)
    Our cancer survival rates are pisspoor and waiting lists are too long. The US doesn't suffer either of these problems because it is not the taxpayers that pay for everyones' healthcare, it is themselves. End the nonsense now and privatise the NHS. If you disagree with me then it shows that you cannot face the truth.
    the truth is that without the nhs the death rates would be even worse as houndreds upon thousands of people couldn't afford health care
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    (Original post by davidr123)
    Sadly - it does need to privatised.

    Having worked in it - the shocking abuse of expenses, employment laws and waste is a complete disgrace.

    It is the lead weight around the UK that is dragging the economy down.

    A good example is the fact that everyone in the EU is eligible for treatement here. I worked in a genetics department in the NHS - over 50% of the patients were non-UK residents, they also need interpretors - £50 an hour.

    Sometimes we'd book appointments that would be £150 for an interpretor, £200 for the consultant fees and guess what - no one turns up.

    Consultants also milk it - they run private clinics, charging their patients £££ - then simply move them over to the NHS for the treatment, leapfrogging the queque and charge the NHS £££££££ for the procedure.

    They make the bankers look like altruists.

    -

    Also the swathes of management consultants, middle managers etc is quite alarming.

    ITs so rampantly abused top to bottom by everyone involved in it - its simply not fit for purpose.
    And the whole country should privatise the NHS because you don't like it?

    Do you know how representative is your experience? Does everyone in the NHS think it should be privatised like you?

    You seem to have missed all the good stuff the NHS does like giving people good treatment without making them fear if they can afford it. Lots of middle income people in America have to think hard about what sorts of health insurance they can afford and they have to do without to pay for it. 60% of the personal bankruptcies in America is because people cannot afford their medical treatment.

    Your one sided comment of the NHS is not a very compelling one.
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    (Original post by Maker)
    And the whole country should privatise the NHS because you don't like it?

    Do you know how representative is your experience? Does everyone in the NHS think it should be privatised like you?

    You seem to have missed all the good stuff the NHS does like giving people good treatment without making them fear if they can afford it. Lots of middle income people in America have to think hard about what sorts of health insurance they can afford and they have to do without to pay for it. 60% of the personal bankruptcies in America is because people cannot afford their medical treatment.

    Your one sided comment of the NHS is not a very compelling one.
    He's entitled to his opinion.
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    (Original post by davidr123)
    Good point - let me elaborate.

    If it is privatised all the waste will be cut out - the "non-jobs".

    More money will be available to "retain customers" - its a customer based service so will focus on what patients want or fail.

    Secondly - audit/regulattion/employment:

    Being privatised means all staff are sackable, you currently have people on 1 year maternity leave or taking 6 months a year off fully paid as standard every year for getting a letter from occupational health saying they have a "bad finger" - unbelievable but true.

    This means departments gring to a halt - I temped in a department - a clinic booking department - of 5 people - 4 were off for 3 months so they had to get me in to temp:

    staff 1: off with "bad neck"
    staff 2: maternity leave 1 year, then 2 day a week flexi-time when back
    staff 3: off with "depression"
    staff 4: off on annual leave

    There are 5 staff on £18k to justify a serrvice manager who is on £30k

    That left me and 1 other person to book clinics for 8 consultnats covering teh whole of the south of England.

    I had no experience of any of the systems.

    People couldn't get appointments - often these are genetic prenatal tests where parents are waiting for results to decide whether to terminate or not - i.e. time sensitive.

    -

    This simply would not happen in a private sector system as everyone would be sacked saving over £120k a year in staff costs and the process would be booked online...

    THis is only the tip of the iceberg I saw...the audit and fudging of reports is another matter - but let me point out that unlike public sector finance scum - those who are members of the ACA or ACCA can be sacked and fined unlimited amounts when things go wrong - the classic example being Enron and Arther Anderson. Currently fraud and scamming in the NHS is not accountable to anyone as if it is reported - the trusts lose funding - so it all gets swept under the carpet.

    Carrying on - just after watching PM question time:

    Consultants - the reason why they proliferate the NHS is because all the managers are paid salaries to command incremental budgets - if they don't spend the money - THEIR post is made redundant and they lose their job. So they spend, spend, spend and spend some more to "facilitate" , "liase", "undertake change management" and all the other nonsense - they can only justify the spending by paying for external people to "consult". Often NHS managrs climb the NVQ qualification system - i.e. they are not that bright at best, and at worst - thick as **** - they need consultants who actually understand a balance sheet or the software that runs on all the NHS finances.

    If the hospitals were privatised - they'd do what banks and auditors do - slash the staff in half and get in a few able people with professional private sector qualifications to do 100 hour weeks on bonus related pay.

    The bonuses would be set on customer satisfaction, patient turnover and against targets for cancer, heart disease and stroke treatment.

    Currently all the figures are "cherry-picked" - I sat down in an office picking all cancer patients who had been seen within 2 weeks of referral to send to the National Audit Office for audit - ignoring all who hadn't been seen. it is all fudged. It is only Labour and the unions that hide behind these fudged reports - the Tories simply point to the fact we are behind France and everyone else on cancer, heart disease and strokes - that is what matters - the results for patients.

    Unfortunately the NHS is the UK's largest employer - it is used by (Labour) government to spin unemployment figures and produce "evidence" to lie to the public - NOT to provide a health service to the people whose taxes pay for it.
    You still haven't said how this would be fixed by privatisation. In the US, a good example of privatised medicine as any, the administration costs are several times they are here. Waste isn't cut because insurers underwrite the cost and the huge asymmetry in clinical knowledge means that insurers and patients are willing to pay anything to be fixed.

    There are problems with the NHS, but the things you are talking about are small fry. A few k here and there for an inefficient admin person is a drop in the ocean of the NHS budget.
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    If anything deaths from serious illness would go up, as British society has shown we try and get out of going to our GP when it's free, nevermind if we had to take into account the bill before seeing a doctor or calling an ambulance.
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    (Original post by ForensicShoe)
    He's entitled to his opinion.
    Unfortunately he's not entitled to his own facts.
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    (Original post by ForensicShoe)
    He's entitled to his opinion.
    Start your own replies.
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    Umm, correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't our waiting lists/times some of the best in Europe?
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    I"m sorry - but the waiting list times etc are completely fudged - I fudged them for cancer waiting times in London! I spent time actually cherry picking these figures to send to audit - we only sent the "sample" from patients who didn't "breach" - anything that is reported by the NHS is false or spun, I'm sorry - but that is definitely the case - which is why no one takes any notice of NHS published reports.

    You cannot compare the NHS to the US - we need to compare it to Europe - where we are now languishing as the 15th best healthcare provider.

    Other countries offer state funded care for all serious long-term illness and obligatory healthcare insurance for anything else. Our open door policy lets consultants rack up huge fees doing boob jobs, tummy tucks and drugs companies charge stupid money for anti-obesity/depression/smoking drugs - which the doctors want to prescribe for kickbacks as oppossed to prescribing eating less and exercising. We open the floodgates for immigrants and "tourist patients" then pay out huge sums for HIV treatment when they claim asylum or sign up to be a student to get a visa.

    I needed a doctors note for an employer - my GP said he could do one and would give it to me for "£10 cash"

    - Seriously where did we end up in this absurd situation where healthcare practitioners approach the job like Del Boy - prescribing branded crap for kickbacks from Glaxo and co, and doing cash in hand "deals" with patients?

    Other European countries - people pay a % for insurance and its staggered so poor people pay nothing.

    The NHS stopped being about healthcare a long time a go - its a macroeconomic political spin tool that is banded about by the left wing idiots labour to spin unemployment figures and churn out pretend figures to make us believe they are about helping "real people" and everything is "getting beter" becuase they are spending so much money - everyone suffers as its so clogged up in red-tape to produce bogus reports getting treatment and the right care is a lottery.

    Coupled with that we go bankrupt.

    There are a great many hard-working genuinely amazing medics, but for everyone of those there is a money-grabbing shyster playing the system for all its worth - and there is more money to be made from it than being a banker...

    The NHS is not fit for purpose in its current state - for healthcare it is 15th in europe whilst actually being the 3rd biggest employer/corporation in europe!! Madness....it costs more and dwarfs practically every other company/body in Europe but comes in 15th!

    My point about the admin problem is to highlight the red-tape and bureacracy - I'm sorry - if I was waiting to decide whether to terminate my child because he may have a serious genetic disorder - I would not consider no staff available for booking my consultation to be "small fry".

    I had a woman on the phone in tears with cancer on chemotherapy telling me she'd been trying ot get an appointment for 3 months but they still hadn't seen her.

    The same hospital a disabled boy died on a ward becuase the nurses forgot to give him water - he died of thirst.

    There are stories like this in every UK hospital - for what we pay for it it is not good enough.
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    (Original post by davidr123)
    I"m sorry - but the waiting list times etc are completely fudged - I fudged them for cancer waiting times in London! I spent time actually cherry picking these figures to send to audit - we only sent the "sample" from patients who didn't "breach" - anything that is reported by the NHS is false or spun, I'm sorry - but that is definitely the case - which is why no one takes any notice of NHS published reports.

    You cannot compare the NHS to the US - we need to compare it to Europe - where we are now languishing as the 15th best healthcare provider.

    Other countries offer state funded care for all serious long-term illness and obligatory healthcare insurance for anything else. Our open door policy lets consultants rack up huge fees doing boob jobs, tummy tucks and drugs companies charge stupid money for anti-obesity/depression/smoking etc drugs - which the doctors want to prescribe for kickbacks as oppossed to prescribing eating less and exercising

    I needed a doctors note for an employer - my GP said he could do one and would give it to me for "£10 cash"

    - Seriously where did we end up in this absurd situation where healthcare practitioners approach the job like Del Boy - prescribing branded crap for kickbacks from Glaxo and co, and doing cash in hand "deals" with patients?

    Other European countries - people pay a % for insurance and its staggered so poor people pay nothing.

    The NHS stopped being about healthcare a long time a go - its a macroeconomic political spin tool that is banded about by the left wing idiots labour to spin unemployment figures to make us believe they are about helping "real people" - everyone suffers as its so clogged up in red-tape to produce bogus reports getting treatment and the right care is a lottery.

    There are a great many hard-working genuinely amazing medics, but for everyone of those there is a money-grabbing shyster playing the system for all its worth.

    The NHS is not fit for purpose in its current state - for healthcare it is 15th in europe whilst actually being the 3rd biggest employer/corporation in europe!! Madness....it costs more and dwarfs practically every other company/body in Europe but comes in 15th!
    Because of course, having a private system that is all about money is going to fix all that :rolleyes:
    A private system would only benefit the people who would stand to make a lot of money from it.
    The rest of us, who depend on the NHS, would be left out in the cold because either we cannot afford it, the insurance company wouldn't pay it, or the treatment isn't cheap enough.
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    Delusional left wing view on this I'm afraid - it isn't "those fat cats vs us".

    A private system would mean people can choose to go to the hospitals with the best outcomes and hospitals which failed to meet patient needs would fail to attract patients and would close or the reports made public.

    its not like the trains - where you are forced to use whoever owns your track..

    Poor people in Eurpoe who can;t affoord healthcare get it free, those who earn decent wages are taxed slightly more through insurance for non-essential healthcare (i.e. cosmetic stuff)

    yes - rich people could get boob jobs and nose jobs done privately - poor people wouldn't be able to if we privatised and cut back but ALL people would get cancer treatment, major operations, life support for their children etc...

    - currently anyone rich or poor can on our tax money get boob jobs and other cosmetic treatments whilst cancer sufferers can;t get drugs (£8000 for a pair of tits isn't my idea of what the NHS should be spending money on)
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    (Original post by davidr123)
    Delusional left wing view on this I'm afraid - it isn't "those fat cats vs us".

    A private system would mean people can choose to go to the hospitals with the best outcomes and hospitals which failed to meet patient needs would fail to attract patients and would close or the reports made public.

    its not like the trains - where you are forced to use whoever owns your track..

    Poor people in Eurpoe who can;t affoord healthcare get it free, those who earn decent wages are taxed slightly more through insurance for non-essential healthcare (i.e. cosmetic stuff)

    yes - rich people could get boob jobs and nose jobs done privately - poor people wouldn't be able to if we privatised and cut back but ALL people would get cancer treatment, major operations, life support for their children etc...

    - currently anyone rich or poor can on our tax money get boob jobs and other cosmetic treatments whilst cancer sufferers can;t get drugs (£8000 for a pair of tits isn't my idea of what the NHS should be spending money on)
    I think you are making it up.
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    (Original post by davidr123)
    Delusional left wing view on this I'm afraid - it isn't "those fat cats vs us".
    No delusion or conflict about it. I just don't think privatising the NHS will solve the problems it has. If anything, I think it will make a lot of it worse.

    (Original post by davidr123)
    A private system would mean people can choose to go to the hospitals with the best outcomes and hospitals which failed to meet patient needs would fail to attract patients and would close or the reports made public.
    Nope. It would mean people would have to choose hospitals based on price. Either what they can afford, or what the insurers will pay. Insurers in any business like to get out of paying, or like to ensure they are paying the least they can get away with, so why would it be any different here? If the insurance company decides they will only pay for you to have treatment at a cheaper hospital, you don't really have a choice do you?

    (Original post by davidr123)
    - currently anyone rich or poor can on our tax money get boob jobs and other cosmetic treatments whilst cancer sufferers can;t get drugs (£8000 for a pair of tits isn't my idea of what the NHS should be spending money on)
    As far as I am aware, you can only get boob jobs on the NHS if it is either affecting your physical health (severe back pain) or mental health (depression etc). Now, I wont deny there are probably women who play up a little just to get one, but I would say they are in the minority. Also, you shouldn't lump all cosmetic surgery in one category. A lot of it is done because of severe injuries like burns etc.

    (Original post by davidr123)
    staff 1: off with "bad neck"
    staff 2: maternity leave 1 year, then 2 day a week flexi-time when back
    staff 3: off with "depression"
    staff 4: off on annual leave
    You do realise that things like bad necks and depression are real conditions? Especially with dodgy necks, you can end up seriously disabled in some circumstances. And what exactly is wrong with maternity leave?

    (Original post by davidr123)
    its not like the trains - where you are forced to use whoever owns your track.
    What?
    Network rail own the track. They do not provide any passenger services.
    On some lines, many operators provide services.
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    (Original post by davidr123)
    Delusional left wing view on this I'm afraid - it isn't "those fat cats vs us".

    A private system would mean people can choose to go to the hospitals with the best outcomes and hospitals which failed to meet patient needs would fail to attract patients and would close or the reports made public.

    its not like the trains - where you are forced to use whoever owns your track..
    I'm sorry, but this hasn't been the case for a while now with Choose & Book. I think you've never actually worked in the NHS (at least seriously) if you're not aware of this.
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    (Original post by davidr123)
    A private system would mean people can choose to go to the hospitals with the best outcomes and hospitals which failed to meet patient needs would fail to attract patients and would close or the reports made public.
    )
    One of the problems of the American private health system is different insurance companies have contracts with different doctors and hospitals.

    If you change your insurance company because you change jobs or because you want cheaper cover, you may end up seeing different doctors in different hospitals. This would be a problem if you are halfway through a treatment and you have to start over with new doctors and new hospitals. You only have a free choice if you pay cash in hand to see whoever you want.

    You seem to equally ignorant of the American healthcare system as the Britsih one.
 
 
 
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