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    It's when you're parents set you up with a possible spouse, but you have right of refusal.
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    (Original post by ayaan)
    No. I'm saying that there is nothing we can do if people want to live in cultural isolation in their personal lives.
    And I'm all for being more comfortable marrying someone from a similar/the same culture it makes decisions like what to raise the kids and living daily life easier. Culture however is not the same as race.
    And having any other personal relationships isn't really hindered by cultural differences as long as understanding is promoted. The how much more so in issues of national importance, where personalities don't come into it.

    We don't try to make differnces unimportant, it's important to me that I don't eat pork, it's important to you that you're allowed to. Where is the conflict?

    Where people make it exist. The only problem that I have with the idea of race or any of the differences that you mention(apart from supremacy) is that when the idea of difference exists, it's easier to create dischord.

    What makes you think that ethnic minoritie promote double standards? I believe what I say, and would say that in any society I happen to live.
    There's no coincidence--it happens repeatedly--that your family were turfed out a predominantly Muslim nation because of their free-thinking -- Islam doesn't allow it. Muslims here try to restrict speech where it offends their narrow interests. They show themselves, wherever they can gain any amount of political power, to be a community unable to adopt western norms of free-speech, conscience and association--even if it means killing their own children who transgress "tradition" and "Islamic teaching".

    There's no inherent problem in western people seeking and enjoying influence from the Islamic world--the problem arises when Muslims transplant themselves to the West or are culturally influenced by the West--to the fury of the Imams or Mullahs. It's your problem Ayaan--I want no part of Islam and want to suffer none of the fall-out which Islam must endure as a result of globalisation.

    Too many Muslims hate the West - and the West does not need anything Islam can offer--the bomb scares in my neighbourhood when the 7/7 bombers turned out to be "Leeds born and bred" shifted my attention to the unassimilability of large Muslim communities.

    Your religious beliefs and associated ethnic traditions -- evident wherever Muslims are the majority and have any amount of power over non-Muslims -- show beyond doubt that as a people, Muslims are presently unable to treat non-Muslims decently, equably, and humanely.

    Islam, by any empirical standard is a supremacist civilisation which always seeks to increase it's influence and power over other peoples.

    ~Point to Islamic states or predominantly Muslim countries which can prove me wrong--plenty to choose from...!

    You're defending a culture and a "people" which you would condemn if it came from another direction Ayaan--that's the double-standard.
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    (Original post by ArthurOliver)
    Your family were turfed out a predominantly Muslim nation because of their free-thinking -- Islam doesn't allow it.
    No, they weren't. PM if you want the story, I don't want to tell everyone who may happen to read this forum.

    (Original post by ArthurOliver)
    Muslims here try to restrict speech where it offends their narrow interests. They show themselves, wherever they can gain any amount of political power, to be a community unable to adopt western norms of free-speech, conscience and association--even if it means killing their own children who transgress "tradition" and "Islamic teaching".
    You know that that isn't allowed. I see what you disagree with, but honour killings are the worst example that you could use.

    (Original post by ArthurOliver)
    There's no inherent problem in western people seeking and enjoying influence from the Islamic world--the problem arises when Muslims transplant themselves to the West or are culturally influenced by the West--to the fury of the Imams or Mullahs. It's your problem Ayaan--I want no part of Islam and want to suffer none of the fall-out which Islam must endure as a result of globalisation.
    If there is a problem then it's one humanity suffers. No man or culture is an island. Besides, most of the muslims who are here want to be here, surely that's a headstart.
    There's a difference between being positively and negatively influenced by the West. What Imam's get upset about is not muslim children recieveing a secular education in addition to an Islamic one, but being affected by the worst parts of western culture(from an Islamic point of view).


    (Original post by ArthurOliver)
    Too many Muslims hate the West - and the West does not need anything Islam can offer--the bomb scares in my neighbourhood when the 7/7 bombers turned out to be "Leeds born and bred" shifted my attention to the unassimilability of large Muslim communities.
    Well probably, but then I can just as easily say that too many in 'the west' hate muslims. You know that I don't agree with that.

    (Original post by ArthurOliver)
    Your religious beliefs and associated ethnic traditions -- evident wherever Muslims are the majority and have any amount of power over non-Muslims -- show beyond doubt that as a people, Muslims are presently unable to treat non-Muslims decently, equably, and humanely.

    Islam, by any empirical standard is a supremacist civilisation which seeks to increase it's influence and hold over other peoples. Point to Islamic states or predominantly Muslim countries which can prive me wrong--plenty to choose from...!

    You're defending a culture and a "people" which you would condemn if it came from another direction Ayaan--that's the double-standard.
    Yes, Islam essentially believes that it is better than other religions, I don't have a problem with that and I don't have a problem with say, Christianity believing the same, or atheists believing that they are right(I'd obviously prefer them to come round to my way of thinking, but that's their choice to make).

    And you know, as well as I that many times in the history of Islam non-muslims under Islamic power have been treated well.

    How is it a double standard when I accept that any culture has the right to believe that the way that it works is better than any other.

    I'm not defending either ideas or behaviour that I would defend from anyone else. I've said what I think about poor treatment of people on the basis of gender/religion/race
    already. That applies wherever and whomever it's done by.
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    (Original post by ayaan)
    No, they weren't. PM if you want the story, I don't want to tell everyone who may happen to read this forum.
    I won't PM you, if your family history and the problems they had were unrelated to ideals such as freedoms of speech or conscience that are rare in the Islamic world but the norm in the West I'd be both surprised and puzzled--why did they not choose an Islamic country to flee to? There are reasons why the human flow is in one direction!
    You know that that isn't allowed. I see what you disagree with, but honour killings are the worst example that you could use.
    Then why do Muslims arounds the world -- in their homalnds and in the countries where they are minorities -- keep on killing their children? As I said earlier--it gets tiresome when Muslims keep on saying their religion and culture has nothing to do with the way they act as relkigious and cultural groups--it begins to sound dishonest!
    If there is a problem then it's one humanity suffers. No man or culture is an island. Besides, most of the muslims who are here want to be here, surely that's a headstart.
    It's a headstart which cannot be sustained. What happens with mass migrations is that the best, most capable, and most ambitious migrate--but as with all groups the next generation reverts to "mean". When it comes to groups of diverse and conflicting cultures, the differences become more pronounced. That's what's happened with our Caribbean and Chinese and Indian and Pak/Bangi communities, and it explains the different success levels of those groups. Their different results here are mirrored around the world in different societies which these groups have emigrated to--it's close to nothing to do with the natives and practically all to do with the immigrants. Muslims are always a problem in their new countries--the mix doesn't work.
    There's a difference between being positively and negatively influenced by the West. What Imam's get upset about is not muslim children recieveing a secular education in addition to an Islamic one, but being affected by the worst parts of western culture(from an Islamic point of view).
    I'm more concerned about the West having to suffer the worst of Islam. The Muslims can leave if they don't like it. If the governments who were foolish enough to invite them were able to have their day again, I suspect they would look elesewhere for cheap labour and easy votes. Even politicians have some conscience.
    Well probably, but then I can just as easily say that too many in 'the west' hate muslims. You know that I don't agree with that.
    The Westerners who hate Muslims don't migrate to Islamic countries, take citizenship, build lives there, and then blow up their fellow citizens because they are different. That kind of sustained, hypocritical, global hatred of the "Ordinary Bloke" is a one-way street.
    Yes, Islam essentially believes that it is better than other religions, I don't have a problem with that and I don't have a problem with say, Christianity believing the same, or atheists believing that they are right(I'd obviously prefer them to come round to my way of thinking, but that's their choice to make).

    And you know, as well as I that many times in the history of Islam non-muslims under Islamic power have been treated well.
    Treated well...I guess it's all relative. Treated worse...treated as infidel scum at best, killed if they refused to accept lesser status. That's the historic norm for non-Muslims when Muslims held the power.
    How is it a double standard when I accept that any culture has the right to believe that the way that it works is better than any other.

    I'm not defending either ideas or behaviour that I would defend from anyone else. I've said what I think about poor treatment of people on the basis of gender/religion/race
    already. That applies wherever and whomever it's done by.
    You might mean what you say, but I suspect it's not Islamic and I know the view holds little sway in Islamic countries.
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    Thanks everyone for posting, however I feel it turned into debate more suitable for the religion room maybe, Some very good points tho.
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    (Original post by ArthurOliver)
    Treated well...I guess it's all relative. Treated worse...treated as infidel scum at best, killed if they refused to accept lesser status. That's the historic norm for non-Muslims when Muslims held the power.You might mean what you say, but I suspect it's not Islamic and I know the view holds little sway in Islamic countries.
    But Islamic countries have been hives of multiculturalism, especially at times when Europe was still extremely parochial. It's well documented that there were plenty of slaves stolen by Muslims from Britain who quickly became equals to their masters: whether having converted or not... That's about the limit to my knowledge, but I think that it isn't historically accurate to judge Islam historically by the radical regimes of Iran or Saudi Arabia...

    Plus, Mohammad was fine with any monotheistic people. He just thought Christians worshipped 3 gods.
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    (Original post by ArthurOliver)
    Then why do Muslims arounds the world -- in their homalnds and in the countries where they are minorities -- keep on killing their children?As I said earlier--it gets tiresome when Muslims keep on saying their religion and culture has nothing to do with the way they act as relkigious and cultural groups--it begins to sound dishonest!
    In this case it does not have a lot directly to do with religion. The idea of honour being invested in your daughter and that a daughter is to be disposed of as her father pleases is widespread- until recently it was part of many European cultures- just listen to some of the border ballads. It is not inherently part of islam, but I think that the commmon islamic attitude to women and marriage makes it easier to continue to have that attitude.

    The problem with migration is simple. We have set out to make a global economy and we have one world with all the defects as well as the supposed virtues. If you want kenyan green beans or Thai asparagus out of season you'll probably get Thai and Kenyan immigrants, legal or illegal, especially as one of the main exports from "the west" is a set of delusions about this society and how people live in it which helps make it seem even more attractive.
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    well my best friends grandparents are 1st cousins...and thier family doesnt have any mutations. but i do find it a bit strange, in some eastern cultures its perfectly acceptable and preffered by the family :eek:
    but i have to admit my second cousin is really hot
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    Thank god someone has finally got off the religious conflict subject!

    If I had a pic of my cousin, I would post it and you would know exactly what I mean. lol.
    It wasn't like he was my cousin at all when we talked and flirted, but there was still this mental block there that stopped my feelings going too far if you know what I mean. We played golf together and I couldn't really play well so he did that thing where the buy stands behind you and moves the stick with you
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    (Original post by natalie1239)
    well my best friends grandparents are 1st cousins...and thier family doesnt have any mutations. but i do find it a bit strange, in some eastern cultures its perfectly acceptable and preffered by the family :eek:
    but i have to admit my second cousin is really hot
    Now and then doesn't make much difference. It's repeated marriage with cousins that can lead to problems: look at the Habsburgs, racehorses and pedigree dogs for what can go wrong or the Wedgwood/Darwin/Vaughan williams etc family for possible advantages. For most of history people tended to marry their cousins actually: they lived in small groups and nearly all of the people they met would be their cousins. there'd be a small amount of exogamy which would stop people geteting too many defects too often.
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    (Original post by ArthurOliver)
    if your family history and the problems they had were unrelated to ideals such as freedoms of speech or conscience that are rare in the Islamic world but the norm in the West I'd be both surprised and puzzled--why did they not choose an Islamic country to flee to?
    Could you be any more patronising?
    Covered this already, pretty much none of them would take us, any given day you could get a fantastic diatribe about the corruption in (espicially) Arab countries from either of my parents.

    Besides, both my parents could already speak English, so that makes coming here a more obvious choice than most other places in the non-Islamic world.


    (Original post by ArthurOliver)
    That kind of sustained, hypocritical, global hatred of the "Ordinary Bloke" is a one-way street.
    (Original post by ArthurOliver)
    Muslims are always a problem in their new countries
    always?
    It's funny how often you talk about dishonesty...

    (Original post by ArthurOliver)
    I'm more concerned about the West having to suffer the worst of Islam. The Muslims can leave if they don't like it. If the governments who were foolish enough to invite them were able to have their day again, I suspect they would look elesewhere for cheap labour and easy votes. Even politicians have some conscience.The Westerners who hate Muslims don't migrate to Islamic countries, take citizenship, build lives there, and then blow up their fellow citizens because they are different.
    I hate to break it to you but that's not because they have greater conscience
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    (Original post by ayaan)
    Could you be any more patronising?
    Covered this already, pretty much none of them would take us, any given day you could get a fantastic diatribe about the corruption in (espicially) Arab countries from either of my parents.

    Besides, both my parents could already speak English, so that makes coming here a more obvious choice than most other places in the non-Islamic world.

    always?
    It's funny how often you talk about dishonesty...

    I hate to break it to you but that's not because they have greater conscience
    Yea -- always! They don't work out well anywhere.
 
 
 
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