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    To what extent is this actually true? It feels like another ruse that those older than us have once again concocted to get more people to study maths, like when they said, "if you cope at a level you'll cope at uni" which is obviously false.

    Has anyone heard of any maths single or joint honor graduates who have found it hard to find employment?
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    (Original post by wanderlust.xx)
    To what extent is this actually true? It feels like another ruse that those older than us have once again concocted to get more people to study maths, like when they said, "if you cope at a level you'll cope at uni" which is obviously false.

    Has anyone heard of any maths single or joint honor graduates who have found it hard to find employment?
    No. because people with maths degrees never find it hard to find employment.
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    'If you cope at A Level you'll cope at Uni' is a fallacy though.

    I know of at least 4 or 5 people who scored better UMS than myself in A-Level Maths (admittedly only 2 took Further Maths) and yet have had to drop out because they can't cope with the course.
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    It took me a good 6 months to find a graduate job (with a 2:1), but that could be down to lazyness in number of applications and being picky.
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    (Original post by majikthise)
    It took me a good 6 months to find a graduate job (with a 2:1), but that could be down to lazyness in number of applications and being picky.
    Erm...6 months isn't a long time.
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    Correlation vs. causation and all that...Math grads tend to be brighter to begin with; it's not the knowing about mathsy **** that gets many jobs.

    But yeah, maths grads are better placed than any other.
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    (Original post by marcusmerehay)
    Erm...6 months isn't a long time.
    I guess not- I was looking at it from the point of view that the vast majority of my uni friends were in employment directly after graduating, but that's probably because they were looking and applying all through their final year. I was still flirting with the idea of PhDs and not even thinking about real jobs up until a few weeks after graduation.

    Either way I'm not complaining!
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    (Original post by Didii)
    No. because people with maths degrees never find it hard to find employment.
    Good to know!

    Another (similar) query is that I'm not sure whether doing a masters would be a) beneficial or b) necessary. I've no idea what I want to go into... most definitely finance, the idea of a PhD is not at all off-putting and teaching isn't bad per se, simply my backup plan.

    Would a masters really put me in a good standing, or is it wiser to simply go for the BSc? Since it's unlikely I'll get funding for my final year if I do a masters.

    So basically what I'm asking is, BSc 1st > MSc 2:1 or BSc 2:1 < MSc 2:1 in terms of graduate employment? Or are both equally viable? Or is it true to say that BSc 1st < MSc 2:1?
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    (Original post by wanderlust.xx)
    So basically what I'm asking is, BSc 1st &gt; MSc 2:1 or BSc 2:1 &lt; MSc 2:1 in terms of graduate employment? Or are both equally viable? Or is it true to say that BSc 1st &lt; MSc 2:1?
    It would probably be best to have a BSc 1st. A graduate with a first in mathematics would be probably better for employment than one with a 2:1 MSc. Spend your extra time finding employment and moving up through the ranks. Mathematics degrees show that you can problem solve, so you show this to potential employers with the BSc. The MSc. although nice, is time that could be spent doing something more progressive to your future career.
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    Maths degree?

    What they really mean is you'll always be able to earn top whack for being a teacher or tutor no matter your age - so you'll never be out of work.

    However fact is even with a first class maths degree you won't be seen as "better" than other grads in languages/engineering etc - as the maths used in professional fields is kids stuff.

    In fact you may be evidencing you are a boring bookworm and they'll prefer a languages grad who can evidence client-facing skills.

    Wanderlast - want to work in finance?

    Do an accountancy and finance degree with exemptions from ACA if you want the uni experience -

    Better still skip Uni, self study the ACA for a year and join the Big 4 as a school leaver in capital/banking markets - you'll start on 25K, by the time your mates graduate you'll be on £45k

    You'll have made tons of contacts and have experience only a handful of people will have access to.

    As soon as you got ACA and Big 4 after your name the headhunters will be harrassing you non-stop on LinkedIn - you'll be able to move to a bank in an associate position.

    This is a much easier route than battling for intern positions at banks - the ACA carries more weight than any university degree, masters and even a MBA from a top business school.

    If your parents are not connected the ACA is the best route into high finance.
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    (Original post by Didii)
    It would probably be best to have a BSc 1st. A graduate with a first in mathematics would be probably better for employment than one with a 2:1 MSc. Spend your extra time finding employment and moving up through the ranks. Mathematics degrees show that you can problem solve, so you show this to potential employers with the BSc. The MSc. although nice, is time that could be spent doing something more progressive to your future career.

    You're right. A year spent doing a bit of hard graft is better spent than another year in education. Besides, if I did a masters then I'd be doing more of the difficult modules with less weighting on the easier ones, which is much harder than a BSc.

    (Original post by davidr123)
    Maths degree?

    What they really mean is you'll always be able to earn top whack for being a teacher or tutor no matter your age - so you'll never be out of work.

    However fact is even with a first class maths degree you won't be seen as "better" than other grads in languages/engineering etc - as the maths used in professional fields is kids stuff.

    In fact you may be evidencing you are a boring bookworm and they'll prefer a languages grad who can evidence client-facing skills.

    Wanderlast - want to work in finance?

    Do an accountancy and finance degree with exemptions from ACA if you want the uni experience -

    Better still skip Uni, self study the ACA for a year and join the Big 4 as a school leaver in capital/banking markets - you'll start on 25K, by the time your mates graduate you'll be on £45k

    You'll have made tons of contacts and have experience only a handful of people will have access to.

    As soon as you got ACA and Big 4 after your name the headhunters will be harrassing you non-stop on LinkedIn - you'll be able to move to a bank in an associate position.

    This is a much easier route than battling for intern positions at banks - the ACA carries more weight than any university degree, masters and even a MBA from a top business school.

    If your parents are not connected the ACA is the best route into high finance.
    Erm...

    For one thing, doing a mathematics degree shows that you're capable of learning and problem solving efficiently, which you can't find in a language or engineering degree. Yes, you can teach or tutor at any age, but the fact is that a strong knack with numbers helps you get a long way ahead in the world.

    Firstly, doing a Finance and Accountancy degree is actually frowned upon (from what those who have worked at places like P&G, KPMG, PWC and Ernst and Young). Why? Simply put, they have to "un-teach" what you've learnt. You'll learn something in a particular way during your uni course, and then they'll want to teach you in such a way that it'll help their company prosper, and the person may sit there and say, "but I learnt it this way".

    Self studying ACA/ACCA is fine, yeah, but if you have a solid degree, then you've got a higher chance of getting onto a graduate scheme than you do as a school leaver, where the company can give you full support, a paid job and a fantastic support network.
    It's common sense - degree + them teaching you > you learning yourself + A levels.

    Yeah, the ACA carries more weight, but a maths degree will open more doors for you, it tell other people that you are in fact clever, and it will distinguish you from the other million or so 18 year olds who think, "I want to make money, I'll be an accountant!"
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    (Original post by wanderlust.xx)
    For one thing, doing a mathematics degree shows that you're capable of learning and problem solving efficiently, which you can't find in a language or engineering degree.
    Sorry, no problem solving in an engineering degree?
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    (Original post by Smack)
    Sorry, no problem solving in an engineering degree?
    Yeah, um.. :lolwut:

    (Original post by wanderlust.xx)

    So basically what I'm asking is, BSc 1st &gt; MSc 2:1 or BSc 2:1 &lt; MSc 2:1 in terms of graduate employment? Or are both equally viable? Or is it true to say that BSc 1st &lt; MSc 2:1?
    You can tell we're in the maths forum

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    (Original post by wanderlust.xx)
    Good to know!
    Would a masters really put me in a good standing, or is it wiser to simply go for the BSc? Since it's unlikely I'll get funding for my final year if I do a masters.

    So basically what I'm asking is, BSc 1st > MSc 2:1 or BSc 2:1 < MSc 2:1 in terms of graduate employment? Or are both equally viable? Or is it true to say that BSc 1st < MSc 2:1?
    I think you are confused. An MSc is generally graded distinction, merit and pass, but its still regarded as an MSc, and as such a higher degree than a BSc. Are you thinking of an MMath - that is an "extended bachelors" degree and has degree classifications like a BSc.

    Generally an MSc and to some extent an MMath with a suitably chosen final project opens up the possibility of direct entry in the a specialised job rather than a graduate training scheme, while still keeping the graduate training scheme route open. The MMath has the advantage of graduating in July so you are in step with the graduate recruitment cycle.

    On the original topic - the answer is NO. Maths graduates are better placed than most other graduates in the job market, but you still have to work at looking for a career. That means focusing your job search and applying early, and getting your CV in order.
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    (Original post by Smack)
    Sorry, no problem solving in an engineering degree?
    What I meant to say that there are things that do merit a maths degree; but obviously engineering has a lot of problem solving. A better example may have been a finance and accountancy degree, which doesn't do as much rigerous analysis as a maths degree which is evidently why they're highly sought after by accounting and audit companies.

    Yeah my bad, rubbish example.
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    Found my job 10 months after graduating in June 09. Though, as with Majikthise above, I like to think it was mostly because I was lazy with applications. Didn't apply anywhere until September and then did a couple of applications a month until around January 10 and then got on to Monster and various other job sites. secured my current job in April.
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    (Original post by wanderlust.xx)
    You're right. A year spent doing a bit of hard graft is better spent than another year in education. Besides, if I did a masters then I'd be doing more of the difficult modules with less weighting on the easier ones, which is much harder than a BSc.


    Erm...

    For one thing, doing a mathematics degree shows that you're capable of learning and problem solving efficiently, which you can't find in a language or engineering degree.

    >>>>>>>
    Wrong - languages are more useful in the real world and more relevant to the workplace where high-level maths is never used, anything relevant will be on your professioanl qual syllabus, and the ability to condense and learn foreign information quickly then communicate it is key.
    >>>>>>>

    Yes, you can teach or tutor at any age, but the fact is that a strong knack with numbers helps you get a long way ahead in the world.

    >>>>>>>
    Wrong, anyone can add up and work out interest rates - a sound knowledge of the economy, investments, mortgages and pensions is what will get you ahead in the real world. My sister has a 2:1 in maths from Imperial and is a financial disaster area.
    >>>>>>>

    Firstly, doing a Finance and Accountancy degree is actually frowned upon (from what those who have worked at places like P&G, KPMG, PWC and Ernst and Young).

    >>>>>>>
    Wrong - all private firms are interested in driving profit, EY, PWC and KPMG are partnering with universities - in some cases delivering the ACA/ACCA in conjuction with the degree to mean their trainees can spend 0 time in trainign college when they start at the firm and be work experience slaves for their audit teams before they start.
    >>>>>>>>

    Why? Simply put, they have to "un-teach" what you've learnt. You'll learn something in a particular way during your uni course, and then they'll want to teach you in such a way that it'll help their company prosper, and the person may sit there and say, "but I learnt it this way".

    >>>>>>>>>
    Wrong - what drives the audit profession is membership of regualted bodies, the firms want to push you through as fast as possible to get you out on more jobs racking up billable hours. They do not care about you - you are a pushed through - if you are up to scratch you stay, if you are good/lazy you'll move to a bank/industry, if you are crap you'll be sacked. In any case there will be 1000 more audit slaves next year. They are pyramid schemes.

    You're comment about company prosper is hilarious - thye don't give a crap - you just go in scrape through the ACA, do the donkey work - then focus on what helps the company prosper - doing the leg work for the partners who make all the decisions.

    If you REALLy want to climb to the top - its about your ability to keep up to date with current legislation in the professiona dn do client facing networking and sales pitches. Maths wil never come into it.

    >>>>>>>>>

    Self studying ACA/ACCA is fine, yeah, but if you have a solid degree, then you've got a higher chance of getting onto a graduate scheme than you do as a school leaver, where the company can give you full support, a paid job and a fantastic support network.
    It's common sense - degree + them teaching you > you learning yourself + A levels.

    >>>>>>>>>
    Wrong - first off all firms want to cut costs - by self-studying the ACA your CV basically says "this candidate will save teh firm £10,000 in training costs and will not need any time off for college - saving at least 6 months dead time."

    You will then get onto a grad scheme - just like you say!! Except without all the Uni debts + earning £25k a year - thats £50k take home instead of £20k debt at the end of 3 years.

    PWC offer entry for AAT students - just the same as grads - this should say it all really.

    >>>>>>>>>

    Yeah, the ACA carries more weight, but a maths degree will open more doors for you, it tell other people that you are in fact clever, and it will distinguish you from the other million or so 18 year olds who think, "I want to make money, I'll be an accountant!"

    >>>>>>>>>
    Everyone has a degree and is just another one of the million graduates thinking "I'll join a grad scheme" Just like everyone has 10 A's and 4 A******'s. Its all meaningless.

    Only 4000 ACA training contracts are given each year - and the difficulty is far far far beyond any university course - Oxbridge 4A's candidates fail ACA exams - reason being they fail the bottom 25% percentile at every sitting, and the siize of the syllabus, time pressure on teh exams is unlike anything you will ever have seen.

    You will stand out a mile by having the professional qualification done and will be eligible for the £30k+ jobs straight off the bat.

    The fact you've done it all at 21 will put you miles ahead of anyone and you can easily transition into high paying city jobs in banking or even move into a career change to law etc.
    >>>>>>>>>

    THe saddest thing about the current debates on education is they purport the myth that degrees lead to higher paid jobs. In reality its membership of professional bodies and experience - doing any degree is simply a stepping stone to get there - and these days is not even needed...
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    Sorry if that all came across as too attacking - but the reality is grad schemes are really for selecting candidates who meet the firms "core competencies" to put on training schemes to do the mundane leg-work - the degree itself is utterly meaningless and not needed.

    Grad recruitment is a competition - but the actual degree isn't what employers are interested in.

    All firms look for the following to be evidenced then pick the students they thought were best "fit":

    1. Ability to pass professional exams
    2. Workplace experience
    3. Social and client-facing skills
    4. Commercial awareness
    5. Discipline in the face of boring work

    That is about it. Back in the...hmmmn...80's you could not do professional qualifications like ACA without a university degree - but its all changed.

    Now having self studied and passed the ACA/ACCA you will clearly evidence 1,4 + 5 and put yourself £10000 better off for a firm if they pick you over any other grad - there is also teh guarantee you will not fail and have to be let go or need any time off.

    If you do AAT in a small firm you'l have clearly evidenced all points 1-5 and can transition into a bigger firm to complete the ACA.

    This is what you need to think about when selecting the degree - just doing maths, maths and more maths is completely pointless.

    If you look at PWC grad scheme - there are roughly 1000 places - 300 go to placement year students who did a year at PWC whislt doign a degree, 300 will go to those studying degrees with exemptions from teh professional qualifications, leaving 400 posts for the other 16,000 applicants - graduates + career switchers....

    How do you stand out?
    Everyone has good a-levels, everyone has a 2:1

    My sister went to Imperial - maths, 2:1 - got nowhere with any firm and now teaches. My friend was a straight A student and went to LSE - wanted to do law and got nowhere.

    The point is getting commercial awareness and client-facing skills on the CV counts for more than any academic qualification.

    THey do not select candidates as
    maths>engineering>languages or
    oxbridge>russell group>others

    The CEO of PWC went to a polytechnic and did English.

    How do you differentiate yourself from other students? Hwo can you add value to the firm ahead of everyone else?

    IF you honestly think you are being head hunted for your superior intelligence for doing a "hard" maths degree you are completely deluded - they are looking for people to do the leg work and represent the firm in client facing roles - they'd rather take on a rugby captain (proves team leadership and well liked socially) who got dodgy a-levels but spent a year working for his dad's marketing agency doing client pitches (commercial awareness, can represent the firm)....
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    (Original post by wanderlust.xx)
    Good to know!

    Another (similar) query is that I'm not sure whether doing a masters would be a) beneficial or b) necessary. I've no idea what I want to go into... most definitely finance, the idea of a PhD is not at all off-putting and teaching isn't bad per se, simply my backup plan.

    Would a masters really put me in a good standing, or is it wiser to simply go for the BSc? Since it's unlikely I'll get funding for my final year if I do a masters.

    So basically what I'm asking is, BSc 1st > MSc 2:1 or BSc 2:1 < MSc 2:1 in terms of graduate employment? Or are both equally viable? Or is it true to say that BSc 1st < MSc 2:1?
    What do you want to do as a job? If you want to go into teaching/accountancy/audit/actuarial job/general graduate scheme etc then a BSc is fine, absolutely fine. You only need an MSc if you want to go into research/something academic. (Eg the maths equivalent of working in a Biochemistry lab, if such a thing exists!)
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    (Original post by wanderlust.xx)
    You're right. A year spent doing a bit of hard graft is better spent than another year in education. Besides, if I did a masters then I'd be doing more of the difficult modules with less weighting on the easier ones, which is much harder than a BSc.


    Erm...

    For one thing, doing a mathematics degree shows that you're capable of learning and problem solving efficiently, which you can't find in a language or engineering degree. Yes, you can teach or tutor at any age, but the fact is that a strong knack with numbers helps you get a long way ahead in the world.

    Firstly, doing a Finance and Accountancy degree is actually frowned upon (from what those who have worked at places like P&G, KPMG, PWC and Ernst and Young). Why? Simply put, they have to "un-teach" what you've learnt. You'll learn something in a particular way during your uni course, and then they'll want to teach you in such a way that it'll help their company prosper, and the person may sit there and say, "but I learnt it this way".

    Self studying ACA/ACCA is fine, yeah, but if you have a solid degree, then you've got a higher chance of getting onto a graduate scheme than you do as a school leaver, where the company can give you full support, a paid job and a fantastic support network.
    It's common sense - degree + them teaching you > you learning yourself + A levels.

    Yeah, the ACA carries more weight, but a maths degree will open more doors for you, it tell other people that you are in fact clever, and it will distinguish you from the other million or so 18 year olds who think, "I want to make money, I'll be an accountant!"
    Tried to rep this post but I've repped too many people today. Very very few people know they want to be an auditor aged 18! A degree will mean you can change careers easily, and besides, the failure rate for ACA qualifications is much higher for the school leavers.

    KPMG have recently announced that their school leaver programme will include a degree anyway, so it seems some companies are moving to be more in favour of degree-educated candidates!
 
 
 
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