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    (Original post by Krebs)
    Doing a degree is just signalling to the employer that you can work independently, and keep focused over three years. I don't think it's the subject matter as such.

    On another note - what's the difference between the ACCA and the CA? It takes three years (I think) to qualify as a CA but does it bring additional benefits above a ACCA?

    Yeah, also university is just a really amazing experience for most people. Nothing can beat the 3 years I enjoyed whilst at uni. I also learnt a lot about life in the real world without my mum and dad. I think the subject and career plans still matter though.

    My brother did ACA, I think it's respected more and you have to do it within a firm but anyone can do ACCA independently, all they have to do is go to a college.

    Sometimes I just wonder if ACCA is just a money making machine for some colleges as some people who do ACCA independently never find anyone to employ them. It's better to do it within a firm.
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    Krebs - spot on - you hit the nail on the head.

    However, the AAT does that while you EARN £15k a year and makes you more attractive to audit firms.

    Everyone has a 2:1 degree - they are not comparable to professional qualifications or experience in the job.

    You will actually find FTSE 100 finance mangers with no degrees or professional qualifications, same in banking.

    The sooner you get into doing the job the better avoid the higher education "snake oil salesman" like the plague. They are full of ****.

    -

    ACA vs ACCA :

    Both take 3 years to get teh practical experience.
    Both have simlar exams (hard, massive syllabus)

    Diffference is:

    ACA is regarded as "the best" in the marketplace and better placed to move into banks/investment etc - you wiill earn more, you will get into high paying capital market roles.

    ACCA is easier to get.

    Reason being:

    ACA - only 4000 training contracts are given per year, the majority by accountancy firms that audit private businesses. The ACA owns the FTSE 100 - in the fact that all the top firm roles dealing with the big clients are ACA tied-in (this is becauae of ICAEW position in the UK as the top advisor to capital markets)

    ACCA - you can clock up the 3 years training under any chartered accountant - so you can get the ACA by working in a post office doing the accounts...

    -

    Travel:

    ACCA - depsite the dubious marketing practice of the ACCA (lies) - it is NOT international - you can sit the exam anywhere - but it is not recognised everywhere

    ACA - they are the official UK member of GAA - the global accounting alliance of the top bodies who advise capital markets. By virtue of being an ACA, providing you do a conversion exam for law and tax - you get recipricol membership of the top bodies in all member countries - US, AUS, Canada, Japan etc

    - It opens the door globally.

    -

    The only reason for choosing the ACCA is because you couldn't get an ACA contract.

    Once you qualify its less of a matter - but its WHERE you qualify and work that will shape your career - and the ACA opens the doors to the big money roles.

    That said KPMG for instance offer ACCA, it is better to qualify with KPMG with the ACCA than get the ACA in a high street firm (unless you plan to go into practice yourself and deal with small clients).
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    My brother works in graduate recruitment and he says companies are queuing round the block for well qualified (Top 20 Unis, Good A Levels) numerate grads. Wish I'd known :-(
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    The smart candidates will never use recruitment consultants - they meet the core competencies of the firms they want to work as fast and cheaply as possible and motor through 1 professional qualification needed for the role (i.e you can only sign off an audit if you are aca/acca qualified), then sit back as they get daily offers from headhunters...and watch their firm constantly offering pay rises to keep them.

    Wish I'd had someone advising me all this when I said I wanted to work in audit and was pushed into maths and doing a degree. - Funnily enough thats what rich kids have and why social mobility doesn't really work - if you've not got sensible people with contacts - you are brainwashed by the education blaggers to sign up for debt and time-wasting.
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    (Original post by davidr123)
    Krebs - spot on - you hit the nail on the head.

    However, the AAT does that while you EARN £15k a year and makes you more attractive to audit firms.

    Everyone has a 2:1 degree - they are not comparable to professional qualifications or experience in the job.

    You will actually find FTSE 100 finance mangers with no degrees or professional qualifications, same in banking.

    The sooner you get into doing the job the better avoid the higher education "snake oil salesman" like the plague. They are full of ****.

    -

    ACA vs ACCA :

    Both take 3 years to get teh practical experience.
    Both have simlar exams (hard, massive syllabus)

    Diffference is:

    ACA is regarded as "the best" in the marketplace and better placed to move into banks/investment etc - you wiill earn more, you will get into high paying capital market roles.

    ACCA is easier to get.

    Reason being:

    ACA - only 4000 training contracts are given per year, the majority by accountancy firms that audit private businesses. The ACA owns the FTSE 100 - in the fact that all the top firm roles dealing with the big clients are ACA tied-in (this is becauae of ICAEW position in the UK as the top advisor to capital markets)

    ACCA - you can clock up the 3 years training under any chartered accountant - so you can get the ACA by working in a post office doing the accounts...

    -

    Travel:

    ACCA - depsite the dubious marketing practice of the ACCA (lies) - it is NOT international - you can sit the exam anywhere - but it is not recognised everywhere

    ACA - they are the official UK member of GAA - the global accounting alliance of the top bodies who advise capital markets. By virtue of being an ACA, providing you do a conversion exam for law and tax - you get recipricol membership of the top bodies in all member countries - US, AUS, Canada, Japan etc

    - It opens the door globally.

    -

    The only reason for choosing the ACCA is because you couldn't get an ACA contract.

    Once you qualify its less of a matter - but its WHERE you qualify and work that will shape your career - and the ACA opens the doors to the big money roles.

    That said KPMG for instance offer ACCA, it is better to qualify with KPMG with the ACCA than get the ACA in a high street firm (unless you plan to go into practice yourself and deal with small clients).
    Thanks for that.

    Will it help at all if I do a module in financial accounting and valuation? Surely some relevant knowledge will be useful?
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    (Original post by davidr123)
    Okay I've been a bit OTT saying you can learn an entire maths degree in 2 months - but the point is you can learn it in a year - not drag it out over 3.

    I'm a part qualified ACA - we've done 12 exams covering more material than during my whole 3 year degree in 1 year whilst working!

    Universities and maths teachers will crap on about doing maths degrees until they are blue in the face - they have a vested interest in getting you to sign up to their courses to pay their salaries.

    The original poster wants to work in finance - maths degree/masters etc + tons of debt is NOT the best choice for this field - the best way into a finance career is commercial awareness and contacts or a degree from a top business school.

    However a far better way of doing it (in terms of money) is the Big 4 ACA route

    The reason being is if you work in audit for them you will have exposure to clients and gain practical experience you cannot get in any academic institution that is relevant to the actual job.

    The ACA is also the best of the best - universites pass everyone - they are paying clients, the ACA fail the bottom 25% percentile of exam takers every sitting - the exams are difficult - no university course can compare not even Oxbridge. You can also get kicked out the ACA for any mistake or face unlimited fines at their whim - so you have to keep an ongoing high standard. People get kicked out for drink driving.

    Everyone in the professional marketplace knows this.

    So given that - how do I get into a big 4 scheme:

    Core competencies and commercial awareness - NOT maths degrees.

    All they are looking for is audit slaves - not the free-thinking leaders of tomorrow or maths geniuses - so the better you differentiate yourself from the rest of the 2:1 grads the better.

    Clearly passing the professional exams or transitioning from AAT to ACA beats a maths or any other degree hands down in that respect.

    You'll also be able to move to audit senior in no time as everyone else in your intake is stuck at Kaplan doing training for exams - you'll be fast tracked on more jobs as you have less exams to do.

    The UK finance career path for those without rich parents to pay for business schools/contacts is:

    School>Big 4 ACA trainee>Associate at bank

    There is no need to squeeze in Uni + £30k debt - you'll be better off taking a couple of years out and travelling/enjoying your time off...

    -

    If you are doing a degree just to get an interview - why not save £30k and just self study the ACCA/ACA over the same period? You'll put yourself ahead of all the other applicants, trainees when you start and fast track yourself.

    Or listen to the maths lecturers who'll tell you how important it is to get into massive debt to justify their jobs...
    How can anybody actually take you seriously after that first line?
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    (Original post by PendulumBoB)
    How can anybody actually take you seriously after that first line?
    I do. He doesn't come across well, but he clearly knows a lot about the finance and auditing sector to be able to do a proper evaluation of ACA and ACCA qualifications ect. He's trying to make the point that for such a sector there is less demand for pure mathematical ability and more emphasis on contacts and experience which seems quite a reasonable comment to make.
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    (Original post by Smack)
    Sorry, no problem solving in an engineering degree?
    Maths is deriving equations

    Engineerng is using equations

    Which is harder?
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    (Original post by Complex Simplicity)
    I do. He doesn't come across well, but he clearly knows a lot about the finance and auditing sector to be able to do a proper evaluation of ACA and ACCA qualifications ect. He's trying to make the point that for such a sector there is less demand for pure mathematical ability and more emphasis on contacts and experience which seems quite a reasonable comment to make.
    You've made a fair point but this guy has said that you could study a maths degree in 1 year-come on

    You would have to be pretty good to do that and even if you could would you really get the same out of it.

    In m opinion this fellow comes across as bitter, he seems to have a distrust of education; I don't particularly like teachers but saying that they promote school for their own financial gain is just puerile.
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    (Original post by PendulumBoB)
    You've made a fair point but this guy has said that you could study a maths degree in 1 year-come on

    You would have to be pretty good to do that and even if you could would you really get the same out of it.

    In m opinion this fellow comes across as bitter, he seems to have a distrust of education; I don't particularly like teachers but saying that they promote school for their own financial gain is just puerile.
    I agree with you he does come across as bitter but his points regarding auditing seem fair. I hate to see maths degrees run down though
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    TSR Support Team
    (Original post by PendulumBoB)
    Maths is deriving equations

    Engineerng is using equations

    Which is harder?
    No, engineering is not just using equations.
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    He may be correct about auditing, but the majority of maths grads don't go into auditing so ymmv.
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    (Original post by majikthise)
    He may be correct about auditing, but the majority of maths grads don't go into auditing so ymmv.
    Where do they end up then?
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    (Original post by Complex Simplicity)
    I agree with you he does come across as bitter but his points regarding auditing seem fair. I hate to see maths degrees run down though

    University is more than just getting a degree. University develops you as an overall individual-for example, you will get opportunities to develop other skills aside academics (music, leadership, team working, organisation/planning, sports, etc). These are key skills that employers are looking for.

    Also university makes you get up in the morning to do some work because you have a timetable that you must adhere to and you have targets that have been set for you-if you're not very self motivated this can be rather daunting doing it all on your own from a book.

    At university, you also get the opportunity to network with other students as well as Academic staff members which is invaluable if you need to get into an academic career or even a vocational career like medicine. There may be opportunities to get involved with projects that your academics are into-you may even get published with a bit of luck. Admitedly, you meet more intelligent people which may later become life time friends/associates.

    You could argue that these skills can be developed on your own but a university provides a better platform. You cant learn everything through online lectures or long distance learning-at times you need to get involved in group work, projects, etc. Sometimes you need supervision for final year projects.

    Billlionheart has emphasised this point already.

    I hope the above supports the notion that 'university isnt just about getting degrees'. We should see university education in a positive rather than a negative light.

    I really dont know much about accounting but at the age of 18, very few teenagers are absolutely clear about what they want to do careerwise and university can help you explore this a bit more whilst you delay this decision.
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    (Original post by wanderlust.xx)
    To what extent is this actually true? It feels like another ruse that those older than us have once again concocted to get more people to study maths, like when they said, "if you cope at a level you'll cope at uni" which is obviously false.

    Has anyone heard of any maths single or joint honor graduates who have found it hard to find employment?
    A maths degree isn't a golden ticket to employment.

    Unless you want to teach...they'll give you anything to be a secondary mathematics teacher.

    Other than that, the graduate job statistics for maths are quite poor from some universities. Obviously maths is generally an indicator of intelligence and teaches plenty of very valuable skills but sometimes those who are very good at maths can be poor at expression and arguing, which can go against you at times.

    I think maths is overhyped on here as fasttrack into a job earning £60k+

    A bit like engineering. They're just pieces of paper in the end, if you're good enough you'll get a job.
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    (Original post by pappymajek)
    University is more than just getting a degree. University develops you as an overall individual-for example, you will get opportunities to develop other skills aside academics (music, leadership, team working, organisation/planning, sports, etc). These are key skills that employers are looking for.

    Also university makes you get up in the morning to do some work because you have a timetable that you must adhere to and you have targets that have been set for you-if you're not very self motivated this can be rather daunting doing it all on your own from a book.

    At university, you also get the opportunity to network with other students as well as Academic staff members which is invaluable if you need to get into an academic career or even a vocational career like medicine. There may be opportunities to get involved with projects that your academics are into-you may even get published with a bit of luck. Admitedly, you meet more intelligent people which may later become life time friends/associates.

    You could argue that these skills can be developed on your own but a university provides a better platform. You cant learn everything through online lectures or long distance learning-at times you need to get involved in group work, projects, etc. Sometimes you need supervision for final year projects.

    Billlionheart has emphasised this point already.

    I hope the above supports the notion that 'university isnt just about getting degrees'. We should see university education in a positive rather than a negative light.

    I really dont know much about accounting but at the age of 18, very few teenagers are absolutely clear about what they want to do careerwise and university can help you explore this a bit more whilst you delay this decision.
    Whilst this is all true, the OP explicity stated that he was very much interested in finance. davidr123 seems to have some experience of that sector and commented from that point of view: stating that with regards to auditing, the most important thing is contacts and relevant finance-based experience things that can be gained without a degree. I don't claim to know anything about the sector, but it seems that davidr123 knows what he's talking about so I don't dispute that specific point.
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    Yes i am bitter! I wasted £30k doing uni, when my mates were at art college with 90% fit girls having the time of their lives and others were saving up for deposits on houses.

    Look - you are 18 - at this moment in your life everyone is trying to sell you something - they all have a vested interest - especially teachers who are under pressure from Ofsted and their headteachers to push you to do a-levels, and push you to go to university. Maths a-levels is seen as a KPI (key performance indicator) for schools - they will feed you all sorts of absolute crap for you to pursue that academic path to boost their figures.

    IF you have professional parents no problem - they'll foot the bill for Uni, and tell you to do something fun and have a good time - then help you in your career.

    If you don't have professional parents - they'll not know how to play the system of grad recruitment and push you down the maths route which can often be disasterous - YOU will have to foot a collosal debt that won't give you the edge in interview and become extremely depressed that after doing 3 years hard slog doing maths and having no wild social life - you still have to do a shed load of finance/accountancy or actuary exams to make a career in the professional world out of being "good at maths"

    You may actually fail to get jobs against languages and business/acc + finance candidates who did industrial placements and internships abroad and have exemptions from the professional exams to get grad jobs anyway.

    Pappymajik has bought the rubbish that these skills can only be learned at Uni and its a magic place for development and team-working - no - that is just being 18 - 25 and living life. You'll get the same experience out in work or out travelling and working odd jobs/work experience at firms. Stop listening to your teachers and start talking to people in the workplace.

    Employers say they are looking for "core competencies" - social skills, team-leadership etc - all can come from other areas than Uni - in fact an interviewer would far more be likely to look favourably on a professional sportsman, entreprenuer who ran his own business or even someone who spent 2 years touring in a band...

    Now the funny thing is - they do not care if you lie and make it all up in interview!!! - Seriously - they are simply judging you on your ability to present to them and meet a set criteria they asked for.

    What employers are really looking for:
    1. Will pass exams
    2. Will turn up and not take days off sick
    3. Isn't a social retard
    4. Is sensible enough and looks presentable enough to do client facing work for the firm
    5. Will obey orders and work extra hours without question
    6. Fits the corporate image of the firm

    So even if you have a top maths degree and straght A's - if you stutter or have a lazy eye - you will never get a training contract at a magic circle law firm -as they will have 10,000 other applicants - half of which are captain of rugby team/model looks.

    There are 1000's of 2:1 grads with the same crap on their CV rolling out every year...

    As for contacts - again these are made by doing the job and networking yourself, the less time spent in a classroom studying the better.

    There is nothing more motivating to do the work to pass exams when you are paid £25k a year and told if you fail an exam by more than 5% you will be sacked, if you pass them all you will automatically move up to £45k.

    -

    Going back to careers and audit - there is nothing better to have n the CV than Big 4 ACA for a career or career changing - you can always move into absolutley anything afterwards, the other added benefits include:
    1. Job security - you will never be out of work
    2. Preferential mortgage rates - by virtue of being a professional chartered accountant you get special rates for loans and mortgages! + investors will lend you money for any business ventures..
    3. Understanding your personal finances and how money works - what you learn and how you understand how finances work will ensure you make the right choices with money, investments and will have your whole life sorted - I firmly believe every child should have the birth right to be taught these things on the national curriculum.

    -

    The only thing you can do with a maths degree is teach or try to get a grad job which you would have better chance of getting in such an intensely competitive marketplace by interning and doing a professional qualification.

    With student fees these days - academic degrees do not add up, you can do a 1 year course to teach maths with the PGCE anyway.

    Good luck whatever you choose to do - but don't be blinkered and sucked in by Uni/schools careers advisors - it is better to sniff out from headhunters and actual qualified professionals (not recruitment consultants ) what the market is looking for.

    Check the accountancy and finance blog sites - wallstreetoasis, big4careers etc.
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    Krebs - no don't study anythng "extra" - as you are going for a trainee role.

    I'd say - get 3 A's at a-level - I would recommend:

    Maths, Business Studies and Accounting.

    Then as soon as you finish and get the results you'll be eligible to join the ICAEW to do ACA - self study the first 6 ACA exams - they are multiple choice sit-any-time papers - do one at a time and work HARD - don't fail - you'll ace them if you did those A level subjects - if not just spend serious time on them (they are serious jump up from A-level even though they are multiple choice this will help you adjust to the horror of the ACA) - Accounting and MI are the only "tricky" ones if its all new to you - if in doubt get lessons from Kaplan - passing first time is important.

    Intern at a big 4 or any accountancy firm if you can...the banks are much harder - but give it a shot - you might be lucky.

    Now apply to all Big 4 school leaver schemes get an academic reference from your tutor and where you interned, lie and say you play golf on the weekend and a part of a football club or some sports/team crap.

    Ask everyone for interview advice. Research like mad to get commercial awareness - you can access mintel market reports etc from city business library in London that will breakdown the accountancy industry for you.

    Also apply to all other top 20 firms school leaver schemes - get lots of interview experience to understand how the recruitment process works - talk to grads doing it on WIkijob - its all there on wikijob - its the best site.

    But you want Big 4, its worth waiting...so don't take just anything - ideally you want the London top tier banking and capital markets - again its worth waiting to get into that rather than public sector or a big 4 regional office...PWC is preferred...

    If you get in to any Big 4 - great - you've done it. - If not:

    Do 1 year in an accounts/book-keeping firm and save all the money - DO NOT start the ACA or ACCA with them - go for the ATT (don;t tell them you;ve done CFAB - they'll sniff you are looking to jump as soon as you can to a big 4) - once you start ACCA or ACA training element the big 4 will not take you on as a trainee.

    Wait 6 months - re-apply to Big 4 (they allow multiple re-applications - once every 6 months) - show you have worked in a job since - also think why you failed - were you shy/not confident/looked like **** (get down gym sort yourself out) - what core competencies did you miss? Who beat you in interview did you network with them - did you add them on facebook? Can you now "tap them up" for help?

    Now interview round 2 - you are miles more prepared than anyone else you should get in.

    If you don't get in - speak to more people about it or do some extra curricular stuff - a top easy one would be to volunteer for young enterprise mentoring in your local area.

    -

    My friend got in 3rd time with PWC banking with 3 B's at A-level - the degree he did was irrelevant - biology but he had 2 years work experience with vodafone head office and got into capital markets is a couple of months from finishing his ACA (£45k at PWC) and gets daily emails from headhunters on LinkedIn offering him higher paid associate roles at banks...

    You'll get in - welcome to Big 4 Audit life - 3 years very hard work (but you'll be more prepared than anyone else - so less likely to drop out or get kicked out).

    If you are crap at exams - defer a year before starting and do another 6 ACA exams in-between having a social life or at least get rid of the FR paper (you will not have a real life outside PWC for 3 years) - I can't re-iterate how demanding these exams are compared to A-levels/uni.. you will also be expected to take 2/3 exams within a day of each other - however only Financial Reporting (FR) should pose the real threat.

    providing you do the work at training college - you will pass - if you read the textbook yourself you will cry. I fyou fail marginally you can resit, if you fail by less than 50% - you'll get kicked off ut 100's of firms will want you to finish the ACA with them.

    -

    Right so that is you aged 21/23 BIg 4 ACA qualified - now take 2 years off, even go to Uni! Go travelling, buy a house and let-it out, do a PGCE, get a few girlfriends under your belt - whatever- in the meantime occasionally log into linked in and speak to the elite professional recruiters - where you will have non-stop messages from head-hunters offering you silly money jobs.

    Get a wide perspective on life and think what you want to be doing:

    a) Working like a dog because you love the work/excitement/buzz - go to a bank or possibly move up Big 4.

    b) Sick of it and want to relax - get an industry finance director role, or chuck it all in and do something else.

    Either way you will always be able to fall back on and hop between extremely well paid temp jobs, your CV will always be at the front of the pile.
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    (Original post by PendulumBoB)
    Maths is deriving equations

    Engineerng is using equations

    Which is harder?
    Both. Depends on the person, I guess.

    _Kar.
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    Unbounded - you have missed the point which will dawn on you when you enter the job market:

    The ACA/ACCA is a professional qualification that can only be achieved by exams in conjunction with formal experience and joining a professional body - only once completed, you may sign off audit reports. If you do not have it - you cannot sign off audit reports - i.e. there is a point to it, a need for it - and a reason why starting salaries for people who hold it are £40k+

    It is similar to qualifying as a corgi-registered gas fitter (plumbing), chartered surveyor or doctor - i.e. it gives you a license to carry out a specific task that therefore demands higher pay.

    However where the ACA/ACCA differs from all other professional qualifications is in its usefulness - you can work in any accounts department, do tax returns and approve loan and mortgage applications - there is a worlwide shortage of chartered accountants - consequently you will always be in work.

    The skills learned cover every single entity from the local sweet shop to Goldman Sachs via healthcare, education and oil exploration - consequently it is a peerless qualification to hold.

    If you qualify as a CFA (chartered financial analyst) that is only useful for certain finance jobs, don't forget many bankers got the sack recently with the downturn - they cannot transition into accounts roles - Aca's can do their roles...

    -

    Academic qualifications are pieces of paper - you cannot "do" anything with them apart from go into lecturing and teaching - which is badly paid and a dead end. However it is unsackable - so if you haven't got what it takes to compete in the real workplace - put your feet up and dupe kids to keep buying your courses.

    The long held bullsh*t about "degrees give employers what they want" or "blue chip companies employ 50% of our graduates" is utter rubbish you simply to have to then do professional qualifications for the good jobs anyway. You either have common sense, social skills and confidence or not - you do not learn these at uni. Many of the top grad jobs go to kids whose parents have pushed them into profesional qualifications first - grads don't even get a look in!

    Its just like the previous round of blaggers in your college/6th form who report "80% of our kids go to Uni" to sell themselves as if UNi is the key to success and good times.

    -

    you'll think the same way when you graduate and realise there are 30,000 decent grad jobs for 300,000 UK graduates with 2:1's and good a-levels....

    Highly intelligent friends of mine who went to LSE/imperial/Leeds/Nottingham now work in dead end account manager jobs for small firms or the jobcentre/NHS as service managers....

    Many graduates come out and do odd jobs whilst struggling to get on the career ladder, many just give up and teach.
 
 
 

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