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EI_123
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#301
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#301
(Original post by thefish_uk)
It shows, in the way you totally ignore anything that you don't have photographic or video evidence of.

I'm agnostic. Gems is theistic. Don't you think that explains something about our viewpoints?

This business about who's "side" is correct, it really depends which evidence you evaluate and which you ignore. So the religious person will go back into ancient times and believe it and the athiest will totally ignore that, while the agnostic hovers in between.

I assume you're not totally on the side of the Palestinians, and you just see the situation from the points of view of both sides?
I can see it from both sides and I must draw a line in the statement THE LAND WAS TOKEN BY FORCE, that's the most important to me.
I don't know what you need to support a cause but that is enough for me; don't doubt about that I support a free Ireland too.
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thefish_uk
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#302
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#302
(Original post by Eternal Idol)
That's the answer that I want.
I'd complain if it was a small amount of land like a field.

But you can't compare fields with countries, the rules governing them are totally different.
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EI_123
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#303
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#303
(Original post by thefish_uk)
I'd complain if it was a small amount of land like a field.

But you can't compare fields with countries, the rules governing them are totally different.
Well then, if you were the celts (picts,scotts) living in Hibernia would you complain about the germanic (anglos,saxons and juts) invading and taking your land by force?
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gemgems89
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#304
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#304
(Original post by Eternal Idol)
Whatever, is pointless to talk to you. There were a lot of terrorism acts in the rising of Israel from both sides and that's is just a fact, if you don't like it fine.

Somebody have already told you that that stupid declaration doesn't mean anything, is just a pieace of paper signed by one side of the conflict.
Look, you think it's pointless then fine. I have tried to look at both sides. Yes, Israel have done some things in the past, but I notice that even now the Palestinians are carrying on attacking.

I've heard many stories of Israel having the chance to kill the Palestinian leader, once, they had tanks near his house or whatever, and the Israelis shot the empty houses surrounding him, but then a load of Israeli tanks crowded round where he was...but they didn't shoot. They tried to connect with them, to show that they had the power to kill him, but they didn't. They were speaking a language everyone understands, and it shows peace behind it. I'll never forget that story because it says a lot about Israel.

At the end of the day, the Jews were given Israel as a homeland. You can't say we invaded because there was already Jews there originally. The Jews need a homeland, look at the anti-semitism. It's the only country they can go to become protected and have a Jewish surrounding.

And what land are we talking about? The Golan? Ok, well Israel offered them the land back. They refused. You can't say Israel havn't tried. Look at all the treaties. Look at the cease fire last July, it lasted a few weaks then the Palestinians broke it.

Trouble at both sides, but Israel are the ones trying to resolve it. I really don't know what the Palestinians want.
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thefish_uk
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#305
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#305
(Original post by Eternal Idol)
I can see it from both sides and I must draw a line in the statement THE LAND WAS TOKEN BY FORCE, that's the most important to me.
I don't know what you need to support a cause but that is enough for me; don't doubt about that I support a free Ireland too.
I know we had this earlier, but suppose the Jews couldn't have had Israel at all because they didn't want to be taking land by force.

Suppose anti-semitism around the world gets worse.

What are the Jews supposed to do in this situation?
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EI_123
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#306
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#306
(Original post by gemgems89)
Look, you think it's pointless then fine. I have tried to look at both sides. Yes, Israel have done some things in the past, but I notice that even now the Palestinians are carrying on attacking.

I've heard many stories of Israel having the chance to kill the Palestinian leader, once, they had tanks near his house or whatever, and the Israelis shot the empty houses surrounding him, but then a load of Israeli tanks crowded round where he was...but they didn't shoot. They tried to connect with them, to show that they had the power to kill him, but they didn't. They were speaking a language everyone understands, and it shows peace behind it. I'll never forget that story because it says a lot about Israel.

Trouble at both sides, but Israel are the ones trying to resolve it. I really don't know what the Palestinians want.

Tanks talking about peace? I think we talk different languages.
They want their land, all of them, all that now belongs to Israel.
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EI_123
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#307
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#307
(Original post by thefish_uk)
I know we had this earlier, but suppose the Jews couldn't have had Israel at all because they didn't want to be taking land by force.

Suppose anti-semitism around the world gets worse.

What are the Jews supposed to do in this situation?
Is palestinean fault that some insane guy like Hitler or Mussolini did what they did?

You are justificating another holocaust... with a previous one.
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thefish_uk
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#308
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#308
(Original post by Eternal Idol)
Tanks talking about peace? I think we talk different languages.
Tanks are needed for protection more than anything else. If the Palestinians are going to break a ceasefire then the Israelis can't exactly walk up to their leader and shake hands without the fear of being blown up, can they?

That language is more to do with symbolism than anything else. The symbol of peace and choosing not to kill the leader.
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EI_123
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#309
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#309
I'm going to finish my participation here for today with a couple of statements.

I support the Palestine cause because their land was taken away by force.

I don't justify killing, life is the most important, but freedom too, and that is something that Palestinean doesn't have in Israel.

The Palestineans want their land, all that now belongs to Israel.
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EI_123
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#310
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#310
(Original post by thefish_uk)
Tanks are needed for protection more than anything else. If the Palestinians are going to break a ceasefire then the Israelis can't exactly walk up to their leader and shake hands without the fear of being blown up, can they?

That language is more to do with symbolism than anything else. The symbol of peace and choosing not to kill the leader.
The symbol of peace is the guy standing in front of the tank.
Frankly I can't remember exactly in what asiatic country happened, but I hope you know wich is.
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thefish_uk
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#311
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#311
(Original post by Eternal Idol)
Is palestinean fault that some insane guy like Hitler or Mussolini did what they did?

You are justificating another holocaust... with a previous one.
No I'm not. Now your argument is actually beginning to fall apart.

I don't see how the creation of Israel can be seen as a holocaust. No killing (if you're going to dispute that we can say there was no huge innocent loss of life). No genocide.

Anti-semitism was causing trouble all over the world at the time, or at least Europe. Look at how Britain accepts so many asylum seekers. Do you agree with that? Do you agree that the Palestinians should have accepted the Jews as refugees (like Britain accepts other groups as refugees) rather than having them set up their own state?
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gemgems89
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#312
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#312
(Original post by Eternal Idol)
Tanks talking about peace?
Yes, tanks talking about peace. The tanks didn't kill anybody. The tanks served a purpose; to show Israel had the power to kill him, if they wanted to. And by not killing him, it shows peace.
(Original post by Eternal Idol)
I think we talk different languages
Is that all you can say to defend yourself?

(Original post by thefish_uk)
That language is more to do with symbolism than anything else. The symbol of peace and choosing not to kill the leader.
Thank you, exactly!
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EI_123
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#313
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#313
(Original post by thefish_uk)
Do you agree that the Palestinians should have accepted the Jews as refugees (like Britain accepts other groups as refugees) rather than having them set up their own state?
Yes, they should accepted everyone that wanted to live there as countries like Argentina did.
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EI_123
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#314
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#314
(Original post by gemgems89)
Yes, tanks talking about peace. The tanks didn't kill anybody. The tanks served a purpose; to show Israel had the power to kill him, if they wanted to. And by not killing him, it shows peace.


Is that all you can say to defend yourself?


Thank you, exactly!
I don't need to defend myself, I didn't kill anyone, this isn't a trial.

Is a symbolism? Ok, tomorrow when I put a UZI over your head and say 'you gonna we quiet, get out of your land, give me your money and shut up'. I'm gonna say that it was a symbol of peace.
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Jamie
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#315
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#315
(Original post by Eternal Idol)
That's the answer that I want.
1) ddan is not really adding anything to the debate, other than poorly worded/spelt one liners.

2) This debate has come down to a slanging match which isn't entirely appropriate. Obviously alot of people are emotionally involved in the topic, but that won't make anyone any more right

3) I've tried giving you basic history lessons, but people seem to ignore them. Gem, Idol etc, you should learn to look at the links when you do a quick check on google. This is the main problem, people nowadays look on google and seem to think its always right. Verify your sources.

4) Jewish immigration into palestine was already significant in 1880s, and increased upto the 2nd world war. There were some clashes with local arab leader who wanted to limit the numbers. Zionists supported by America and other Jews abroad, Aplestinians by local Arab countries.

1947 - Britain proposes 2 states, one Jewish, one Palestinian. this is accepted by the (future) Israelis but not palestinians. (basically they are losing half of their country). It goes ahead anyway mid may 1948. Egypt Syria and co invade but are beaten back.

1949 - Israel secures and extends its borders deep into the orignally proposed palestinian land.

1956 - a new president of egypt nationalises the suez canal. Israel backed by Britain and France invades and secures all the land upto the suez canal - this constitutes huggggggggge amounts of land
They are forced to withdraw after significant international pressure

1964 - the PLO is fojnded which vows to destroy the nation of Israel, and reclaim the lands that were lost some 17 years ago - think how small a time frame that is!!! And o yeah, Yasser Arafat was chairmanof the party

1967 - ISRAEL pre-emptively attacks its neighbours, seizing the land upto the suez canal (again), the golan heights and jerusalem (it previously was in palestinian area)

1979 - Egyptian land is returned and Egypt signs a recognition treaty

1981 - Israel annexes (annexe, like germany and Austria...) the entirety of the Golan heights - basically seizing land from lebannon. In fact all the way to Beirut!!!

1985 - Isreal is forced to abondon large tracts of this area, leaving behind alot of mines. It still keeps much of the productive golan heights area though

1987 - Intifada (uprising of palestinians)

1993 - Oslo peace accord signed.

2000 - Lenannon Golan Heights abondoned by Israel. They are chased out by Hizbollah guerillas

Late 200 - 12 year old boy shot in his fathers arm. New intifada begins, and continues to today

There's your history lesson GemGems, you can argue any fact from there that you like. Keep your emotions out of the subject though
J
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EI_123
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#316
Well, I can't stay here all day, there's been 4 minutes and none answer.

I'm going to see a movie.

Have a nice day, and gemsgems89 if you gonna answer to this, TAKE IT EASY, this is not a war, you aren't my enemy.
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Jamie
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#317
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#317
(Original post by Eternal Idol)
I can see it from both sides and I must draw a line in the statement THE LAND WAS TOKEN BY FORCE, that's the most important to me.
I don't know what you need to support a cause but that is enough for me; don't doubt about that I support a free Ireland too.
Free from whom? Why don't you go to Ireland, sit in a crowded room and try to point out who is what religion or loyalist/republican persuasion.
J
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thefish_uk
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#318
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#318
(Original post by Eternal Idol)
Yes, they should accepted everyone that wanted to live there as countries like Argentina did.
They should have. But they didn't.

So are you shifting the blame on to the Palestinians now?

With the abuse that went on in British mandate-controlled Palestine, it isn't really surprising that the Jews wanted to make a safe area there, a state of their own.
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EI_123
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#319
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#319
(Original post by foolfarian)
1947 - Britain proposes 2 states, one Jewish, one Palestinian. this is accepted by the (future) Israelis but not palestinians. (basically they are losing half of their country). It goes ahead anyway mid may 1948. Egypt Syria and co invade but are beaten back.
I already knew most of them but I'll keep this one. Of course they didn't accept to lose the half of their country...

See you tomorrow, I'm gone.
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Jamie
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#320
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#320
(Original post by Eternal Idol)
Yes, they should accepted everyone that wanted to live there as countries like Argentina did.
Isn't argentina the country that was peeved because we arrested it's ambassador relating to an anti-semitic bombing..?
J
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