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Elle
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#381
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#381
(Original post by Jonatan)
Just answer me one question. The PLO has repeadately ignored the terrorist groups. Arafat encouraged teh last intifada, he gave palestinian schoolchildren free from school during the worst stone throwing campaigns aganist Israeli checkpoints, and they brodcast comercials promoting suecide bombings.

Are you saying israel should sit with their arms in the lap and watch their population being blown up at restaurants and buses, because the terrorist orginisations uses civilians as human shields? If teh palestinian giovernment does not try to stop the terrorism, then what choice does Israel have but to try to defend themselves the best they can?
I'm definantley against terrorism but you have to go to the root of the problem and ask why the palestinians have been forced to resort to these measures? Ultimatley Israel is to blame.. and not only Israel but the other governments (such as the Bush administration) who support them.
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Jonatan
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#382
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#382
(Original post by JSM)
you told me not to act stupid, but muslims are israeli residents - so we were at cross puirposes
Oh god, this is tartingto get silly. Must I take it word by word?

What the post you responded to said, was that the Muslims which are Israelly residents enyoy equal rights to the Jews which are Israeli residents. You responded by reffering to palestinian villages which has been moved during teh contruction of the security fence. Now these villages are mainly palestinian villages, and their inhabbitants are not israeli residents. The point the first post on this subject made was that those Muslims who are Israeli residents are treated equally well as all other Israeli residents (whether they are Jews, Christians or Muslims). The fact that muslim villages had to move due to the security fence has little to do with thise as we are then not talking about Israeli residents anymore. Dont get me wrong, I am not saying that it is not important that tehse Muslims have to move from their homes, but your argument simply doesnt apply.
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Vienna
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#383
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#383
(Original post by Elle)
This is an impressive thread, but I still don't doubt that the Israelis are in the wrong here- I know this is a complicated issue but the problem will never be solved as long as America continues to turn a blind eye to Israel and the crimes it commits.
turning a blind eye is condemning their threats against Arafat, criticising the security fence and not backing Sharon's unilateral proposal? i think the US is doing too much to appease the anti-Israel lobby.
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ThornsnRoses
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#384
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#384
(Original post by Speciez99)
*ducks to avoid shouting*
wow
i think hes wrong as well, but i dont think thats gonna convice him and i dont think u will convice ever no matter what evidence u had so i guess ur shouting policy might be the best....
I apologised if i did anything harmful to your ears...but i was annoyed :mad:
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Vienna
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#385
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#385
(Original post by Elle)
I'm definantley against terrorism but you have to go to the root of the problem and ask why the palestinians have been forced to resort to these measures? Ultimatley Israel is to blame..
forced?????????????????????????? they enjoy it for gods sake! they openly boast of taking Israeli lives!
ISrael is to blame for what? wanting a right to exist? erecting a fence to protect its people...

i think u are sick to equate terrorist bombing with strict border controlling.

and not only Israel but the other governments (such as the Bush administration) who support them.
you mean every government?
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ThornsnRoses
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#386
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#386
(Original post by vienna95)
forced?????????????????????????? they enjoy it for gods sake! they openly boast of taking Israeli lives!
ISrael is to blame for what? wanting a right to exist? erecting a fence to protect its people...

i think u are sick to equate terrorist bombing with strict border controlling.



you mean every government?


They’re making the best of a **** situation...to put it bluntly. They need to maintain pride ok...anyone would resort to those measures, kamikazes in the WWII, Jews fighting Nazis in Germany…ok! When you don’t have enough or sophisticated weapons to fight the aggressor, suicide bombing is an unfortunate and inevitable consequence.
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Blamps
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#387
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#387
(Original post by ThornsnRoses)
They’re making the best of a **** situation...to put it bluntly. They need to maintain pride ok...anyone would resort to those measures, kamikazes in the WWII, Jews fighting Nazis in Germany…ok! When you don’t have enough or sophisticated weapons to fight the aggressor, suicide bombing is an unfortunate and inevitable consequence.
that is a gross generalisation, which is typical
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Blamps
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#388
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#388
(Original post by Blamps)
that is a gross generalisation, which is typical
I bet you would never consider blowing yourself up because you're a pussy...anyway, blowing up people is not going to make a hugely superior military power shift...only tighten...now where is the logic?
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gemgems89
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#389
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#389
(Original post by ThornsnRoses)
They’re making the best of a **** situation...to put it bluntly. They need to maintain pride ok...anyone would resort to those measures, kamikazes in the WWII, Jews fighting Nazis in Germany…ok! When you don’t have enough or sophisticated weapons to fight the aggressor, suicide bombing is an unfortunate and inevitable consequence.
What rubbish! You talk absolute crap! Is this a joke or something?
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ThornsnRoses
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#390
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#390
(Original post by Blamps)
I bet you would never consider blowing yourself up because you're a pussy...anyway, blowing up people is not going to make a hugely superior military power shift...only tighten...now where is the logic?
I wouldnt consider blowing myself up simply because i have hope and aspiration in life. I dont, unlike the victims, live in a dead end situation! Well the Kamikazes were very successful against the Americans, so much so that the Americans thought of changing their tactics. Anyway... you maybe right in saying im a 'pussy'. I think dying for your cause is a very honourable thing, however its done (nevertheless i disagree targetting civilians...but it is unfortunate if any get hurt).
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Jamie
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#391
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#391
(Original post by Jonatan)
Well, first of all there was never a treaty. Hamaz said they wanted one Israel said they did not trust Hamaz. Hamaz was damaged after operation defensive shield, they wanted time to build up their network again. After that, you can be certain they would have atacked Israel again. This organisation has on its agenda the complete destruction of Israel, the Israelis and their culture. To beleive that Hamaz wanted peace is nonsense. Besides, what sort of treaty is it that they are to stop atacking civilians for two months? They are not atacking teh Israeli government or the IDF. They are blasting away innocent civilians. Ceasfire in this case means that Israel should sit with their arms crossed and wait for Hamaz to smuggle in enough explosives etc etc to start a new intifada.
Ok, this is a sick point, but I'll make it anyway.
There is obligatory conscription in Israel, therefore every young male killed will be one less that can join the army.
I DO NOT CONDONE THIS, but it is a point nonetheless.
J
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Jamie
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#392
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#392
(Original post by Jonatan)
Well, first of all there was never a treaty. Hamaz said they wanted one Israel said they did not trust Hamaz. Hamaz was damaged after operation defensive shield, they wanted time to build up their network again. After that, you can be certain they would have atacked Israel again. This organisation has on its agenda the complete destruction of Israel, the Israelis and their culture. To beleive that Hamaz wanted peace is nonsense. Besides, what sort of treaty is it that they are to stop atacking civilians for two months? They are not atacking teh Israeli government or the IDF. They are blasting away innocent civilians. Ceasfire in this case means that Israel should sit with their arms crossed and wait for Hamaz to smuggle in enough explosives etc etc to start a new intifada.
You are probably right, but the point is that it was Israel that broke the cease fire, and the consequences are therefore on their own heads.
Basically you are saying that because you think that Hamas isn't to be trusted that and promises can be ignored.
J
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Jamie
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#393
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#393
(Original post by gemgems89)
Because he said exactly what I wanted to say and he said it well.
Who says it's an opinion? It looks like facts to me...
that doesn't make it fact, that's the whole point of an opinion - it looks good to you but not other people
J
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Jamie
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#394
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#394
(Original post by Jonatan)
Yep. Problem is the terrorists, and as long as the PLO and Arafat refuse to deal with them, nothings going to get better. Israel has offered to draw back the occupation, to give economical support to the refugees, and to acknowledge a palestinian state. But Arafat and his party refuse to do anything but giving lose promises which they never fulfill.
Please read up, they already have recognised the palestinians state. Then changed their minds when it suited them
J
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Blamps
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#395
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#395
(Original post by foolfarian)
You are probably right, but the point is that it was Israel that broke the cease fire, and the consequences are therefore on their own heads.
Basically you are saying that because you think that Hamas isn't to be trusted that and promises can be ignored.
J
like every suicide bomber blown up, is one less suicide bomber to kill people and good riddance
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Jamie
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#396
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#396
(Original post by Jonatan)
We do not criticise the palestinian government because they cannot perform miracles. We criticize the palestinian government because they do not even try do do anything whatsoever. So far, all they have come up with is lose promises. The PLO still hasnt removed the destruction of Israel from their official agenda. When they broadcast television comercials promoting suecide bombings, it is not strange the Israelis do not trust them when they say they condem all terrorism. It doesnt matter how poor the palestinian PEOPLE happen to be, if the palestinian GOVERNMENT, refuse to obandon terrorism and the goal of the destruction of Israel, its not much Israel can do but to defend themselves best they can. Meanwhile, given the large amounts of support Europeann countries send to the palestinian government, why is it that the terrorist groups like Hamaz run close to a majority of Hospitals and Schools? Perhaps if Arafat opened that fat Swiss bank account the palestinians would not be so poor that the terrorist groups could take advantage of them as suecide bimbers ?

Btw: Not very long ago two BRITISH residents blew themselves up in a suecide bombings. So much for your "poor desperate people with no other purpose in life" theory.
This is because the whole problem is being fanned by religious zealots, and haters of Jews. Thats doesn't mean that they are the root of the problem, but are a cross wind blowing any peace treaty into the rocks
J
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Blamps
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#397
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#397
(Original post by ThornsnRoses)
I wouldnt consider blowing myself up simply because i have hope and aspiration in life. I dont, unlike the victims, live in a dead end situation! Well the Kamikazes were very successful against the Americans, so much so that the Americans thought of changing their tactics. Anyway... you maybe right in saying im a 'pussy'. I think dying for your cause is a very honourable thing, however its done (nevertheless i disagree targetting civilians...but it is unfortunate if any get hurt).
I wouldn't over emphasise the success of the kamikazes....they were doomed to failure....e.g for the suicide subs, the japs lost more men and ships than the ships that were actually sunk because the releasing of the subs gave away the positions of their "mother ships"
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Jamie
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#398
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#398
(Original post by ThornsnRoses)
That is so arrogant Foolfarian...English may be your fiist language but its not Eternal Idols...you dont have to be so rude. Try learning Spanish or talking to him in his native tongue and let see who comes out making sense then.
It's not arrogant, it's obnoxious, and my opinion
1) I couldn't amke sense of what he said
2) I think he talks cr&p about some issues, namely this issue, and the Falklands issue
J
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Jamie
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#399
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#399
(Original post by Jonatan)
First of all, their was no Palestinian authority in palestine when the Jews started to move there. The area was under a BRITISH mandate.
Second: Israel has not had as a goal to annihilate the palestinians nor have they tried to do so. That is pure and utter bull****. Just take a look at Israels huge palestinian populations. Most of them say they would not hesitate a second to chose Israel in front of any Arab regime if they got to decide where they wanted to live. Furthermore, you can hardly call the 1973 Yom Kippur war an Israeli atempt to annihilate palestinians as it was the Arab states who launched a surprise atack on Israel at the most holy day in the Jewish calender. Furthermore, the palestinian government run by Arafat has not done **** to promote the peace process. Today, their agenda is still a direct copy of what it was in 1967, stating the destruction of Israel and Israeli culture as one of their main goals.
Ok, why dont you go back a few pages and read my history of the conflict. Yom Kippur was a suprise attack to try to win back what Israel had taken in its own pre emptive attack some years previous
tit for tat methinks
J
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DoctorNO
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#400
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#400
hell they are ALL to blame. who takes the larger shares of the blame? first the arabs and then the europeans.

Someone oughta take that land and give it to the chinese.
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