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starry
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#421
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#421
(Original post by UWC student)
Listen up everything that was said and more is all true and you can check every book in History. Until you live through this pain, Do not dare to speak of it, as you have no clue.

If you have any questions about those alleged holes in the so called propaganda, please do not hasitate to ask me, and I promise to fill in the gap.

Hadar
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UWC student
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#422
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#422
(Original post by ThornsnRoses)
not true...philistinites were there first...these are modren day palestinians! they may have adopted a diff culture, religion and language...its still their land!
The Philistines were there but they were exactly where they are now in the five cities they controled. The only other place that could be associated with Muslims is Edom - which is today's Jordan.

Check the good book there are some interesting things in there, you might learn a thing or two.

Hadar
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Jamie
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#423
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#423
(Original post by UWC student)
The Philistines were there but they were exactly where they are now in the five cities they controled. The only other place that could be associated with Muslims is Edom - which is today's Jordan.

Check the good book there are some interesting things in there, you might learn a thing or two.

Hadar
Philistine...are you quoting the old testament!?!
Just when I thought this debate couldn't get worse.
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Vienna
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#424
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#424
(Original post by foolfarian)
? palestine isn't sending anyone. The terrrorist organistations are
J
and if you think that Arafat has nothing to do with them then perhaps youre more naive than i thought.
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Vienna
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#425
(Original post by foolfarian)
"i find that there arguments are nothing more than leftist humanitarian whining..." Easy to say sitting in front of a computer in a free country, knowing that your building isn't about to demolished in an attempt to kill a nearby terrorist/in case there are tunnels under it/because someone who's son just blew themself up lives there/because it's in the way of a 'fence'...

J
yes it easy for me to say because the leftist whining comes from people in similar circumstances to myself. and I rarely touch on the humanitarian aspect of the conflict. my points are political.
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EI_123
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#426
(Original post by vienna95)
yes it easy for me to say because the leftist whining comes from people in similar circumstances to myself. and I rarely touch on the humanitarian aspect of the conflict. my points are political.
Well, I think that we have different priorities.
Do you agree?
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Jamie
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#427
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#427
(Original post by vienna95)
and if you think that Arafat has nothing to do with them then perhaps youre more naive than i thought.
See that's the universal argument. 'You are naive' / 'you don't see the big picture' etc
Alot more people see the big picture than you realise. (not in the general public tho...) It's how we interpret the picture that differs. So don't come any of that naivety sh*te with me
J
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adelz
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#428
Well, Ive sat here for quite a long time reading quite a few pages of crap. Especially from Vienna, so this post is especiall for you ..

- You say that "the US were committed, Israel were committed, what happened to the Palestinians?" and "they want all of it, thats the problem, they dont want Israel to exist. and if he's talking about settling for a provisional withdrawal, why did Hamas jeopardise the roadmap peace talks by sending more suicide bombers? Israel was ready to agree to a deal." (regarding the roadmap)..
Well thats a load of bull - all the "terrorist" organisations agreed on a ceasefire for 6 months or whatever it was, for the first time in history, as a confidence building measure and in return Israel agreed to stop incursions and targeted killings. They didn't, they continued assasinating militant leaders, quote from theGuardian "Palestinian Militants announced a ceasefire but Israel continued targeting militants" . That does not show commitment. They also continued building settlements and didn't remove their checkpoints from the gaza strip and the westbank (palestinian controlled areas) which doesn't show commitment either. That restarted the cycle of violence.

- You say that Yasser Arafat is a terrorist etc. doesnt want peace - He got the nobel peace prize, he signed the oslo accord which was a major step towards peace (showing he wants peace) but he cant control anything in Palestine, including the "terrorist" groups, especially since he has been under house arrest for 3 years and the Israelis frequently target his security headquarters.

- You say that Israel is offering Palestine land, therefore they should just accept it and there will be peace, or whatever. Well Im sorry but before 1947 all the land used to be Palestinian - palestinian jews, muslims, christians lived there peacefully. Currently around 15% belongs to Palestine and the rest to Israel - they are fighting for more land, more rights ofcourse, all they want is a return to pre1967 borders, east jerusalem - the ARAB SECTOR, and right of return of refugees. SO all in all they will own around 20% of what they owned before - thats not too much to ask for especially since israel ARE the agressors and they are currently a state after expelling palestinians from their land.

I also must say that we must look at the core of the issue - which is that ISRAEL has TAKEN OVER PALESTINIAN LAND ! - im not too sure about the initial history, i know that the first people there were phillistines / caanites (source cnn.com) not too sure if they are jewish but well - that was 3000 years ago .. in most recent history it has been palestinian - if we go on who it belonged too in the beginning then paksitan should be indian, austria german , america red indian etc. etc. etc.
If they want peace they can just get up, remove their settlements which are AGAINST UN RESOLUTIONS, TOTALLY UNDERMINE PEACE EFFORTS and take a LARGE TOLL ON NORMAL PALESTINIANS, and just move back to 1967 borders - then there will be peace.

After saying all this don't get me wrong - I don't agree with suicide bombing, but on the other hand I don't agree with israeli incursions into palestine and frankly i think thats worse - look at the death toll its something like 4 palestinians to 1 israeli dead. . .on both sides most are civillians. Even though I don't agree with suicide bombings I totally understand why people blow themeselves up - if family and friends have been killed by israelis, your kids have no access to basic healthcare and schooling and if you are earning less than a $1 and dont have enough to keep your family alive then - I would too. People don't just randomly blow themeselves up you have to look at the core issue of why they do it - imagine the pressure they must have on them if they go as far as doing it.

And I also dont think you have any right to talk about Palestine / Israel if you havent been there and seen what its like - I have. To get to palestine I had to go through Egypt because the Israelis destroyed Gaza airport a year or 2 ago. The border between GAZA and EGPYT is at the Rafah Refugee camp and is controlled by ISRAELIS even though it is between egypt and palestine. Anyway, we get to the border, theres lines of hundreds of people who have been waiting for days to get into gaza (sleeping in the dirt next to the line) as the israelis do not have any set working time - they open and close the border whenever they decide. Luckily today they opened early and we got thru. We had to leave all our luggage in the bus that takes us across no mans land and we allfiled out of the bus into a seating area. We couldnt take ANYTHING out with us. soldiers then went into the bus, took all our luggage out and they start screening it. One by one we are called in and given our passports (which we left inside the bus over our luggage). Then we go thru metal detectors etc. and get to passport control. We give our passports the officials there - who are palestinian. Behind them is a black one way window where there are israeli officials sitting behind computers. Our passports are passed back to them and they start looking at our records - after around 30 mins of waiting we are called up one by one and have to look into the window for a minute so the israelis can see us. When it got to our turn, my dad goes up, looks in, gets told to sit back down.. 10 mins later israelis mossad agents come up to him tell him to follow them, i stand up and get told to sit down. After an hour and a half of just sitting there like an idiot, really worried my dad returns - they had taken him away, photographed him as they do prisoners (infront of a blackboard with his height, name etc. written down), then thoroughly searched him and started interrogating him for an hour - they even asked him what colour his car was here in Dubai. And all this humiliation because he has been to Pakistan.
After we finally get out we get to the customs. There we have to open ourluggage and isrealis start looking thru it - they confiscated 2 of our mobile phones for some reason. An elderly woman - probably aruond 70 or 80 was infront of us and got shouted at by a customs guy because she couldnt lift her suitcase up to the table. We finally got out ... and welcome to Gaza. .. Bullet ridden buildings, blown up houses.. On the way to Gaza city we passed thru an Israeli settlement which is in the middle of Gaza. They have built themeselves a highway right thru the middle of gaza strip into israel . the whole highway is barricaded with pillboxes , soldiers, barbed wire - gaza strip split into 2. There, only 5 cars are allowed at a time to cross it - if more pass they get shot at.
In gaza its just. .. what can I say .... terrible ... Its like an oversized slum - people are extremely poor, everything is run down, destroyed, people on the street .. bah .. i dont have any words to describe it ... It is just humiliating and I can't believe the UN and international community dont take ACTION against israel...
ON the other hand Ive also been to Israel, and oh what contrast. Israel is beautiful, rich, modern ... bah .... whatever . Israelis treat palestinians like scum, its horrific...
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ben2111
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#429
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#429
Brillantly said!
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Jamie
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#430
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#430
(Original post by adelz)
Well, Ive sat here for quite a long time reading quite a few pages of crap. Especially from Vienna, so this post is especiall for you ..

- You say that "the US were committed, Israel were committed, what happened to the Palestinians?" and "they want all of it, thats the problem, they dont want Israel to exist. and if he's talking about settling for a provisional withdrawal, why did Hamas jeopardise the roadmap peace talks by sending more suicide bombers? Israel was ready to agree to a deal." (regarding the roadmap)..
Well thats a load of bull - all the "terrorist" organisations agreed on a ceasefire for 6 months or whatever it was, for the first time in history, as a confidence building measure and in return Israel agreed to stop incursions and targeted killings. They didn't, they continued assasinating militant leaders, quote from theGuardian "Palestinian Militants announced a ceasefire but Israel continued targeting militants" . That does not show commitment. They also continued building settlements and didn't remove their checkpoints from the gaza strip and the westbank (palestinian controlled areas) which doesn't show commitment either. That restarted the cycle of violence.

- You say that Yasser Arafat is a terrorist etc. doesnt want peace - He got the nobel peace prize, he signed the oslo accord which was a major step towards peace (showing he wants peace) but he cant control anything in Palestine, including the "terrorist" groups, especially since he has been under house arrest for 3 years and the Israelis frequently target his security headquarters.

- You say that Israel is offering Palestine land, therefore they should just accept it and there will be peace, or whatever. Well Im sorry but before 1947 all the land used to be Palestinian - palestinian jews, muslims, christians lived there peacefully. Currently around 15% belongs to Palestine and the rest to Israel - they are fighting for more land, more rights ofcourse, all they want is a return to pre1967 borders, east jerusalem - the ARAB SECTOR, and right of return of refugees. SO all in all they will own around 20% of what they owned before - thats not too much to ask for especially since israel ARE the agressors and they are currently a state after expelling palestinians from their land.

I also must say that we must look at the core of the issue - which is that ISRAEL has TAKEN OVER PALESTINIAN LAND ! - im not too sure about the initial history, i know that the first people there were phillistines / caanites (source cnn.com) not too sure if they are jewish but well - that was 3000 years ago .. in most recent history it has been palestinian - if we go on who it belonged too in the beginning then paksitan should be indian, austria german , america red indian etc. etc. etc.
If they want peace they can just get up, remove their settlements which are AGAINST UN RESOLUTIONS, TOTALLY UNDERMINE PEACE EFFORTS and take a LARGE TOLL ON NORMAL PALESTINIANS, and just move back to 1967 borders - then there will be peace.

After saying all this don't get me wrong - I don't agree with suicide bombing, but on the other hand I don't agree with israeli incursions into palestine and frankly i think thats worse - look at the death toll its something like 4 palestinians to 1 israeli dead. . .on both sides most are civillians. Even though I don't agree with suicide bombings I totally understand why people blow themeselves up - if family and friends have been killed by israelis, your kids have no access to basic healthcare and schooling and if you are earning less than a $1 and dont have enough to keep your family alive then - I would too. People don't just randomly blow themeselves up you have to look at the core issue of why they do it - imagine the pressure they must have on them if they go as far as doing it.

And I also dont think you have any right to talk about Palestine / Israel if you havent been there and seen what its like - I have. To get to palestine I had to go through Egypt because the Israelis destroyed Gaza airport a year or 2 ago. The border between GAZA and EGPYT is at the Rafah Refugee camp and is controlled by ISRAELIS even though it is between egypt and palestine. Anyway, we get to the border, theres lines of hundreds of people who have been waiting for days to get into gaza (sleeping in the dirt next to the line) as the israelis do not have any set working time - they open and close the border whenever they decide. Luckily today they opened early and we got thru. We had to leave all our luggage in the bus that takes us across no mans land and we allfiled out of the bus into a seating area. We couldnt take ANYTHING out with us. soldiers then went into the bus, took all our luggage out and they start screening it. One by one we are called in and given our passports (which we left inside the bus over our luggage). Then we go thru metal detectors etc. and get to passport control. We give our passports the officials there - who are palestinian. Behind them is a black one way window where there are israeli officials sitting behind computers. Our passports are passed back to them and they start looking at our records - after around 30 mins of waiting we are called up one by one and have to look into the window for a minute so the israelis can see us. When it got to our turn, my dad goes up, looks in, gets told to sit back down.. 10 mins later israelis mossad agents come up to him tell him to follow them, i stand up and get told to sit down. After an hour and a half of just sitting there like an idiot, really worried my dad returns - they had taken him away, photographed him as they do prisoners (infront of a blackboard with his height, name etc. written down), then thoroughly searched him and started interrogating him for an hour - they even asked him what colour his car was here in Dubai. And all this humiliation because he has been to Pakistan.
After we finally get out we get to the customs. There we have to open ourluggage and isrealis start looking thru it - they confiscated 2 of our mobile phones for some reason. An elderly woman - probably aruond 70 or 80 was infront of us and got shouted at by a customs guy because she couldnt lift her suitcase up to the table. We finally got out ... and welcome to Gaza. .. Bullet ridden buildings, blown up houses.. On the way to Gaza city we passed thru an Israeli settlement which is in the middle of Gaza. They have built themeselves a highway right thru the middle of gaza strip into israel . the whole highway is barricaded with pillboxes , soldiers, barbed wire - gaza strip split into 2. There, only 5 cars are allowed at a time to cross it - if more pass they get shot at.
In gaza its just. .. what can I say .... terrible ... Its like an oversized slum - people are extremely poor, everything is run down, destroyed, people on the street .. bah .. i dont have any words to describe it ... It is just humiliating and I can't believe the UN and international community dont take ACTION against israel...
ON the other hand Ive also been to Israel, and oh what contrast. Israel is beautiful, rich, modern ... bah .... whatever . Israelis treat palestinians like scum, its horrific...
It's nice to have some more 1st hand perspective.
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adelz
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#431
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#431
(Original post by foolfarian)
It's nice to have some more 1st hand perspective.
lol .. well it was a very very interesting experience.... anyway I found a few interesting articles :

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Sto...129104,00.html

"When challenged to justify attacks on civilians, Azzam seems almost apologetic, citing a string of Israeli massacres and killings of civilians - from the slaughter of the villagers of Deir Yassin in 1948 to the shooting of 12-year-old Muhammad Durrah in his father's arms at the beginning of the current al-Aqsa intifada in 2000. "We are never happy about the death of any innocent human being, regardless of their religion, but Israel initiated these killings. Palestinians were pushed into such operations in an effort to stop Israel killing our civilians. A year ago, Islamic Jihad proposed that both sides avoid civilian targets - and that was recently repeated by Hamas - but the Israelis have not responded positively."

"Behind the scenes, Palestinian leaders have for months been trying to draw Hamas into agreeing a common national platform. But Rantissi - who has spent more than two years in Palestinian jails, as well as seven in Israeli prisons, for his role as a Hamas leader - warns that his organisation will be offering no more comprehensive ceasefires without a full Israel withdrawal. "We are resisting because we are under occupation," he declares, "not because we are being hit by Apaches or F16s. The enemy must withdraw or they will continue to bleed. But if the occupation ends, there will be no need for resistance."

"In practical terms, it becomes clear, both Hamas and Islamic Jihad are now committed to ending their armed campaign in exchange for a full Israeli withdrawal from the territories occupied in 1967: the West Bank, Gaza and east Jerusalem. "

"What these comments make clear is that every significant Palestinian political and armed force is, for the first time, now prepared to accept a de facto end to conflict in return for a fully independent state on only 22% of pre-1948 Palestine. This is unprecedented in the history of the conflict. But, of course, no such state is on offer. And what is currently taking place on the ground has begun to cast doubt on whether a Palestinian state is now a realistic possibility at all. "

"Since most of their people fled or were driven from their homes in the war that gave birth to the state of Israel in 1948, the Palestinians have suffered national dispossession, humiliation and slaughter. And as their country has been progressively conquered and colonised - with the support or acquiescence of the west - their daily lives have become ever grimmer. Yet they have also consistently demonstrated a tenacious creativity in their struggle for political survival and independence. "

"But since the explosion of the intifada in September 2000, that slump has turned into a full-scale economic and social disaster, as military invasion, siege, blockades, curfews and destruction of homes and infrastructure have driven Palestinian unemployment to two-thirds in some parts of the territories, where incomes have fallen by more than half to $900 a year - compared with an average of nearly $17,000 for their Israeli neighbours. Towns dependent on tourism, like Bethlehem, have been reduced to beggary, while towering over shanty refugee camps are the suburban-style fortresses that are home to nearly 240,000 Jewish settlers. Only in South Africa and on the US-Mexican border do the first and third worlds collide as in the territories ruled by Israel. "

"The wall dividing Jerusalem from its Arab suburbs is part of the so-called "separation fence", which far from protecting Israel proper from vengeful West Bankers, in fact cuts deep into occupied territory - already up to 7km from the old Israeli border and planned to reach 21km at some points - linking up settlements with Israel, but trapping tens of thousands of Palestinians on the Israeli side. These areas, between the old green line and the wall, are declared "closed zones", where Palestinian residents must apply for a permit to live or work and where farmers are often cut off from their land. In the case of Qalqilya, the entire town has now been walled up, with access only possible through one Israeli checkpoint. A third of Qalqilya's shops have closed and 3,000 out of its population of 40,000 have left - some to Jordan and the Gulf - while hundreds queue up for food handouts every day. "

So What can I say - I think that all supports my argument.

If the wall is meant to protect israel then why dont they build it on isreali land ?
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adelz
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#432
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#432
(Original post by ben2111)
Brillantly said!
if that was for me, thanks :P
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adelz
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#433
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#433
http://www.guardian.co.uk/weekend/st...129071,00.html

"Since then, more than three times as many Palestinians have been killed as Israelis (2,648 to 842) - five times as many when it comes to children. As the former US senator George Mitchell reported in 2001, there was no plan by the Palestinian leadership to launch a "campaign of violence" - even if some tried to ride the tiger of popular anger - and the bloodshed was unleashed by Israeli troops repeatedly using live ammunition against stone-throwing demonstrators. In the first 10 days after Sharon's visit, 74 Palestinians were killed as against five Israelis. Even then, the character of the intifada as a mass popular movement against occupation continued and it was not until the early months of 2001 that the suicide attacks began. "
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EI_123
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#434
Great adelz, just great.
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s.ahmad3
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#435
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#435
Originally Posted by UWC student
The Philistines were there but they were exactly where they are now in the five cities they controled. The only other place that could be associated with Muslims is Edom - which is today's Jordan.
you are trying to tell me that the cananites/palestinians were only populating five cities in modern day jordan? and that the rest of the land was uninhabited? that the city of jerusalem was empty? (jerusalem was already in existence - you can check - not built by the jews). Of course they inhabited the land. It was theirs. The jews came, and conquered it. The romans came and conquered it. The romans, jews and cananites/palestinians were still living there. Jews rebel. Jews exiled. Temple destroyed by romans. Romans kicked out by arab/muslims. Muslims settle with palestinians (who are christians, jews etc).

Stop with the myth that palestine was a land without a people for a people without a land.
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Vienna
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#436
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#436
(Original post by adelz)
Well, Ive sat here for quite a long time reading quite a few pages of crap. Especially from Vienna, so this post is especiall for you ..
who are you? Lord Hutton?

- You say that "the US were committed, Israel were committed, what happened to the Palestinians?" Well thats a load of bull
whats bull?......
the Palestinians agreed to adopt the Road Map? when the Palestinian people have a leadership acting decisively against terror?
Hamas and Arafat dont want Israel to exist?
suicide bombers did not interrupt the adoption of the plan? why? because any reconciliation with Israel is not acceptable.


- all the "terrorist" organisations agreed on a ceasefire for 6 months or whatever it was,
glad to see u know ur stuff.

for the first time in history, as a confidence building measure and in return Israel agreed to stop incursions and targeted killings.
They didn't, they continued assasinating militant leaders, quote from theGuardian "Palestinian Militants announced a ceasefire but Israel continued targeting militants" .
nice choice of publication. but even by their standards that seems a pretty low quality quote youve taken, can i have reference? the truce came about as the PA agreed to start arresting known militants. however, Abu Mazen told the US that he could not effect any action because of the resistance from Arafat. there was no way that this promise could be fulfilled. incidentally, Abbas was the Palestinian PM who said he would end terrorism and subsequently was cold-shouldered by Arafat and received death threats until he resigned. Israel were tracking a Hamas leader who was planning an attack and on hearing that the PA were to be ineffective, took the said target out.


That does not show commitment. They also continued building settlements and didn't remove their checkpoints from the gaza strip and the westbank (palestinian controlled areas) which doesn't show commitment either. That restarted the cycle of violence.
it shows commitment to the defense of its people.they are a visible force, terrorism is not.
my points have been trying to raise the rather obvious validity and Israeli requirement for checkpoints. im surprised that you have the nerve to post without recognising the concrete concerns of the Israeli people. the checkpoints would remain in place until the settlements had been entirely removed. they continued building settlements? over what time frame?

- You say that Yasser Arafat is a terrorist etc. doesnt want peace - He got the nobel peace prize,
*shakes head*, who are you kidding? only yourself.

he signed the oslo accord which was a major step towards peace (showing he wants peace) but he cant control anything in Palestine, including the "terrorist" groups,
no, he wants the backing of the international community! his policies over the last decades have shown that.
he funds Hamas from the aid funds he receives, there is no politician on the face of this planet who disputes this! he orders the posting and promotion of suicide bombers, israeli destruction is left purposely for media bait. Bush(and dont start on him, because he is the US president who has done most for the palestinians) wont have anything to do with him for a very good reason and that is he does not believe in the peaceful creation of 2-states as most palestinians may, but shares the hatred for Israel that his terrorist organisations feed upon.

- You say that Israel is offering Palestine land, therefore they should just accept it and there will be peace, or whatever. Well Im sorry but before 1947 all the land used to be Palestinian - palestinian jews,
and that im afraid is where ur ideas for peace and progress are severely hindered. an Israeli state has been established, they have a right to exist in the world and almost every politician and statesmen involved recognises that the creation of a 2-state region is the best and only way forward. and it may have been Palestine, but the Palestinians never had any control of it.

muslims, christians lived there peacefully. Currently around 15% belongs to Palestine and the rest to Israel - they are fighting for more land, more rights ofcourse, all they want is a return to pre1967 borders, east jerusalem -
arabs and muslims living in Israel enjoy the same rights as Jewish Israelis, the same cant be said of those in Palestine.
Bahrak offered the return of land to the Palestinians, he was turned down.
the road map to peace offered the return of the land but the terrorists kept coming.
Sharon offers the same deal, for nothing in return but an end to bombing, they turn it down.

I also must say that we must look at the core of the issue - which is that ISRAEL has TAKEN OVER PALESTINIAN LAND ! - im not too sure about the initial history, i know that the first people there were
again, you are blinding yourself if you think this is a political point. people on every side of the argument agree on the fundamental belief that Israel and Palestine should exist on that land.
what ARE you sure about?

phillistines / caanites (source cnn.com) not too sure if they are jewish but well - that was 3000 years ago .. in most recent history it has been palestinian - if we go on who it belonged too in the beginning then paksitan should be indian, austria german , america red indian etc. etc. etc.
, and just move back to 1967 borders - then there will be peace.
they cannot move the settlements without assurances that suicide bombing will cease. the Israeli governments word is stronger than a liar who believes that he can kid everyone into thinking he has no control over UN outlawed terrorist groups.

After saying all this don't get me wrong - I don't agree with suicide bombing, but on the other hand I don't agree with israeli incursions into palestine and frankly i think thats worse
its a very sick individual who believes suicide bombing against civilians is better than military operations to eliminate terrorists.

- if family and friends have been killed by israelis, your kids have no access to basic healthcare and schooling and if you are earning less than a $1 and dont have enough to keep your family alive then - I would too.
see a doctor.

People don't just randomly blow themeselves up you have to look at the core issue of why they do it - imagine the pressure they must have on them if they go as far as doing it.
people? which people? people who are proud to be martyrs? people who see this as something to celebrate? they arent driven to it, they enjoy doing it in the belief that they well receive divine preference.

And I also dont think you have any right to talk about Palestine / Israel if you havent been there and seen what its like - I have.
so have i.

Anyway, we get to the border, theres lines of hundreds of people who have been waiting for days to get into gaza (sleeping in the dirt next to the line) as the israelis do not have any set working time - they open and close the border whenever they decide. Luckily today they opened early and we got thru. We had to leave all our luggage in the bus that takes us across no mans land and we allfiled out of the bus into a seating area. We couldnt take ANYTHING out with us.
sounds fair enough. have u ever been through dover, its the same.
you poor thing...hehe.

After we finally get out we get to the customs. There we have to open ourluggage and isrealis start looking thru it - they confiscated 2 of our mobile phones for some reason. An elderly woman - probably aruond 70 or 80 was infront of us and got shouted at by a customs guy because she couldnt lift her suitcase up to the table.
tell this tale of pity to the Israeli guards who stripped searched a pleading mother who didnt want to pass through the metal detector..oh, you cant. she blew them to pieces. you claim to have been their yet you show increasing naivety. suicide bombers can take any form and every precaution has to be made. your ridiculous ideas of sympathy or the very weaknesses that cause deaths.

We finally got out ... and welcome to Gaza. .. Bullet ridden buildings, blown up houses..
as i was reading this month, the palestinians,or arafat, purposely leaves the result of conflict untouched for the western cameras. the israelis on the other hand have every bomb attack cleaned up within 24 hrs..they like to move on.

if more pass they get shot at.
In gaza its just. .. what can I say .... terrible ... Its like an oversized slum - people are extremely poor, everything is run down, destroyed, people on the street .. bah .. i dont have any words to describe it ... It is just humiliating and I can't believe the UN and international community dont take ACTION against israel...
hehe, it is ****hole because Arafat spends EU and UN aid on the terrorists. it has nothing to do with israel. the road is a sign of the clear differences in mentality. the israelis striving for progress and the future, while the palestinians live in squalor for the benefit of the leftist intellectuals back in europe.

ON the other hand Ive also been to Israel, and oh what contrast. Israel is beautiful, rich, modern
yes, a truly nice country in the middle of a desperate region.

... bah .... whatever . Israelis treat palestinians like scum, its horrific...
treat them like scum..?
horrific? because they can enjoy living in a better country, you find this horrific? you clearly are a very warped individual.
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Vienna
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#437
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#437
(Original post by foolfarian)
See that's the universal argument. 'You are naive' / 'you don't see the big picture' etc
Alot more people see the big picture than you realise. (not in the general public tho...) It's how we interpret the picture that differs. So don't come any of that naivety sh*te with me
J
what r u talking about? thats not the universal argument. i said u are naive to believe that Arafat has nothing to do with terrorist organisations.
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yawn1
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#438
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#438
(Original post by adelz)
Well, Ive sat here for quite a long time reading quite a few pages of crap. Especially from Vienna, so this post is especiall for you ..

- You say that "the US were committed, Israel were committed, what happened to the Palestinians?" and "they want all of it, thats the problem, they dont want Israel to exist. and if he's talking about settling for a provisional withdrawal, why did Hamas jeopardise the roadmap peace talks by sending more suicide bombers? Israel was ready to agree to a deal." (regarding the roadmap)..
Well thats a load of bull - all the "terrorist" organisations agreed on a ceasefire for 6 months or whatever it was, for the first time in history, as a confidence building measure and in return Israel agreed to stop incursions and targeted killings. They didn't, they continued assasinating militant leaders, quote from theGuardian "Palestinian Militants announced a ceasefire but Israel continued targeting militants" . That does not show commitment. They also continued building settlements and didn't remove their checkpoints from the gaza strip and the westbank (palestinian controlled areas) which doesn't show commitment either. That restarted the cycle of violence.

- You say that Yasser Arafat is a terrorist etc. doesnt want peace - He got the nobel peace prize, he signed the oslo accord which was a major step towards peace (showing he wants peace) but he cant control anything in Palestine, including the "terrorist" groups, especially since he has been under house arrest for 3 years and the Israelis frequently target his security headquarters.

- You say that Israel is offering Palestine land, therefore they should just accept it and there will be peace, or whatever. Well Im sorry but before 1947 all the land used to be Palestinian - palestinian jews, muslims, christians lived there peacefully. Currently around 15% belongs to Palestine and the rest to Israel - they are fighting for more land, more rights ofcourse, all they want is a return to pre1967 borders, east jerusalem - the ARAB SECTOR, and right of return of refugees. SO all in all they will own around 20% of what they owned before - thats not too much to ask for especially since israel ARE the agressors and they are currently a state after expelling palestinians from their land.

I also must say that we must look at the core of the issue - which is that ISRAEL has TAKEN OVER PALESTINIAN LAND ! - im not too sure about the initial history, i know that the first people there were phillistines / caanites (source cnn.com) not too sure if they are jewish but well - that was 3000 years ago .. in most recent history it has been palestinian - if we go on who it belonged too in the beginning then paksitan should be indian, austria german , america red indian etc. etc. etc.
If they want peace they can just get up, remove their settlements which are AGAINST UN RESOLUTIONS, TOTALLY UNDERMINE PEACE EFFORTS and take a LARGE TOLL ON NORMAL PALESTINIANS, and just move back to 1967 borders - then there will be peace.

After saying all this don't get me wrong - I don't agree with suicide bombing, but on the other hand I don't agree with israeli incursions into palestine and frankly i think thats worse - look at the death toll its something like 4 palestinians to 1 israeli dead. . .on both sides most are civillians. Even though I don't agree with suicide bombings I totally understand why people blow themeselves up - if family and friends have been killed by israelis, your kids have no access to basic healthcare and schooling and if you are earning less than a $1 and dont have enough to keep your family alive then - I would too. People don't just randomly blow themeselves up you have to look at the core issue of why they do it - imagine the pressure they must have on them if they go as far as doing it.

And I also dont think you have any right to talk about Palestine / Israel if you havent been there and seen what its like - I have. To get to palestine I had to go through Egypt because the Israelis destroyed Gaza airport a year or 2 ago. The border between GAZA and EGPYT is at the Rafah Refugee camp and is controlled by ISRAELIS even though it is between egypt and palestine. Anyway, we get to the border, theres lines of hundreds of people who have been waiting for days to get into gaza (sleeping in the dirt next to the line) as the israelis do not have any set working time - they open and close the border whenever they decide. Luckily today they opened early and we got thru. We had to leave all our luggage in the bus that takes us across no mans land and we allfiled out of the bus into a seating area. We couldnt take ANYTHING out with us. soldiers then went into the bus, took all our luggage out and they start screening it. One by one we are called in and given our passports (which we left inside the bus over our luggage). Then we go thru metal detectors etc. and get to passport control. We give our passports the officials there - who are palestinian. Behind them is a black one way window where there are israeli officials sitting behind computers. Our passports are passed back to them and they start looking at our records - after around 30 mins of waiting we are called up one by one and have to look into the window for a minute so the israelis can see us. When it got to our turn, my dad goes up, looks in, gets told to sit back down.. 10 mins later israelis mossad agents come up to him tell him to follow them, i stand up and get told to sit down. After an hour and a half of just sitting there like an idiot, really worried my dad returns - they had taken him away, photographed him as they do prisoners (infront of a blackboard with his height, name etc. written down), then thoroughly searched him and started interrogating him for an hour - they even asked him what colour his car was here in Dubai. And all this humiliation because he has been to Pakistan.
After we finally get out we get to the customs. There we have to open ourluggage and isrealis start looking thru it - they confiscated 2 of our mobile phones for some reason. An elderly woman - probably aruond 70 or 80 was infront of us and got shouted at by a customs guy because she couldnt lift her suitcase up to the table. We finally got out ... and welcome to Gaza. .. Bullet ridden buildings, blown up houses.. On the way to Gaza city we passed thru an Israeli settlement which is in the middle of Gaza. They have built themeselves a highway right thru the middle of gaza strip into israel . the whole highway is barricaded with pillboxes , soldiers, barbed wire - gaza strip split into 2. There, only 5 cars are allowed at a time to cross it - if more pass they get shot at.
In gaza its just. .. what can I say .... terrible ... Its like an oversized slum - people are extremely poor, everything is run down, destroyed, people on the street .. bah .. i dont have any words to describe it ... It is just humiliating and I can't believe the UN and international community dont take ACTION against israel...
ON the other hand Ive also been to Israel, and oh what contrast. Israel is beautiful, rich, modern ... bah .... whatever . Israelis treat palestinians like scum, its horrific...
A very moving account of your experience - nations that are abused go on to abuse in turn - when will it end? Perhaps when US decide to stop giving Israel $3 billion dollars a year.
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DoctorNO
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#439
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#439
(Original post by yawn1)
A very moving account of your experience - nations that are abused go on to abuse in turn - when will it end? Perhaps when US decide to stop giving Israel $3 billion dollars a year.
I think that is based on the assumption that Israel abused the Palestinians first.
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yawn1
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#440
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#440
(Original post by DoctorNO)
I think that is based on the assumption that Israel abused the Palestinians first.
No - Jews have been abused from time immemorial. It is being perpetuated.
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