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EI_123
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#441
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#441
(Original post by yawn1)
No - Jews have been abused from time immemorial. It is being perpetuated.
That's what they want you to believe, that they are the ONLY victims...
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DoctorNO
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#442
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#442
(Original post by adelz)
Well thats a load of bull - all the "terrorist" organisations agreed on a ceasefire for 6 months or whatever it was, for the first time in history,
Whatever it was? That proves you are not sure what you are talking about. Before we can believe you can you please show us a news item or authoritative article that “all the terrororist organizations agreed on a ceasefire” and that they ceased all hostilities until Israel broke the ceasefire by assassinating any of their members.

(Original post by adelz)
- You say that Yasser Arafat is a terrorist etc. doesnt want peace - He got the nobel peace prize, he signed the oslo accord which was a major step towards peace (showing he wants peace) but he cant control anything in Palestine, including the "terrorist" groups, especially since he has been under house arrest for 3 years and the Israelis frequently target his security headquarters.
Agreed. But you cant deny the fact that Arafat WAS a terrorist who WAS not interested with peace. Perhaps he had reformed or perhaps he was just putting on a false face.

(Original post by adelz)
- You say that Israel is offering Palestine land, therefore they should just accept it and there will be peace, or whatever. Well Im sorry but before 1947 all the land used to be Palestinian - palestinian jews, muslims, christians lived there peacefully. Currently around 15% belongs to Palestine and the rest to Israel - they are fighting for more land, more rights ofcourse, all they want is a return to pre1967 borders, east jerusalem - the ARAB SECTOR, and right of return of refugees. SO all in all they will own around 20% of what they owned before - thats not too much to ask for especially since israel ARE the agressors and they are currently a state after expelling palestinians from their land.
And before the that the land undoubtedly belonged to the Jews who were the descendants of the hebrews and the canaanites (including the philistines). Much of the loss of Palestinian land can be blamed on the Arabs who encouraged them to abandon their lands while they try driving the jews into the seas (1947).

But I agree that what they ask for now is not too much to ask for compared what they used to hold.

(Original post by adelz)
I also must say that we must look at the core of the issue - which is that ISRAEL has TAKEN OVER PALESTINIAN LAND ! - im not too sure about the initial history, i know that the first people there were phillistines / caanites (source cnn.com) not too sure if they are jewish but well - that was 3000 years ago ..
My friend the Philistines have been ASSIMILATED with the Jews.
  • http://www.ancientroute.com/empire/philistia.htm
    After the Jews returned from exile, the Hebrews and Philistines were more friendly, as both were reduced in numbers. Marriages between the two peoples abated the old hatreds, and Philistia was absorbed into the neighboring countries. Much later, the Land of the Philistines is again fought over by the Macedonian Greeks. Alexander the Great conquered Philistia, after a siege of Gaza, then his generals fought over Palestine for the next several centuries.

(Original post by adelz)
in most recent history it has been palestinian
Wrong. In most recent history, 20th century, it was mostly Israeli.


(Original post by adelz)
After saying all this don't get me wrong - I don't agree with suicide bombing, but on the other hand I don't agree with israeli incursions into palestine and frankly i think thats worse - look at the death toll its something like 4 palestinians to 1 israeli dead. . .on both sides most are civillians. Even though I don't agree with suicide bombings I totally understand why people blow themeselves up - if family and friends have been killed by israelis, your kids have no access to basic healthcare and schooling and if you are earning less than a $1 and dont have enough to keep your family alive then - I would too. People don't just randomly blow themeselves up you have to look at the core issue of why they do it - imagine the pressure they must have on them if they go as far as doing it.
I agree. But the Israelis wont stop killing them if they wont stop killing the Israelis. All that is needed is just a couple of months of complete peace. Perhaps that Wall might do the trick.


(Original post by adelz)
And I also dont think you have any right to talk about Palestine / Israel if you havent been there and seen what its like - I have. To get to palestine I had to go through Egypt because the Israelis destroyed Gaza airport a year or 2 ago. The border between GAZA and EGPYT is at the Rafah Refugee camp and is controlled by ISRAELIS even though it is between egypt and palestine. Anyway, we get to the border, theres lines of hundreds of people who have been waiting for days to get into gaza (sleeping in the dirt next to the line) as the israelis do not have any set working time - they open and close the border whenever they decide. Luckily today they opened early and we got thru. We had to leave all our luggage in the bus that takes us across no mans land and we allfiled out of the bus into a seating area. We couldnt take ANYTHING out with us. soldiers then went into the bus, took all our luggage out and they start screening it. One by one we are called in and given our passports (which we left inside the bus over our luggage). Then we go thru metal detectors etc. and get to passport control. We give our passports the officials there - who are palestinian. Behind them is a black one way window where there are israeli officials sitting behind computers. Our passports are passed back to them and they start looking at our records - after around 30 mins of waiting we are called up one by one and have to look into the window for a minute so the israelis can see us. When it got to our turn, my dad goes up, looks in, gets told to sit back down.. 10 mins later israelis mossad agents come up to him tell him to follow them, i stand up and get told to sit down. After an hour and a half of just sitting there like an idiot, really worried my dad returns - they had taken him away, photographed him as they do prisoners (infront of a blackboard with his height, name etc. written down), then thoroughly searched him and started interrogating him for an hour - they even asked him what colour his car was here in Dubai. And all this humiliation because he has been to Pakistan.
Youll have to thank the Bus bombers for that.

(Original post by adelz)
After we finally get out we get to the customs. There we have to open ourluggage and isrealis start looking thru it - they confiscated 2 of our mobile phones for some reason.
mobile phones are used to detonate bombs.

(Original post by adelz)
ON the other hand Ive also been to Israel, and oh what contrast. Israel is beautiful, rich, modern ... bah .... whatever . Israelis treat palestinians like scum, its horrific...
There are many arab Israelis and they enjoy everything in Israel almost as much as the jews.


Nobody can afford to be extremely one-sided on this issue. States for both people. Bombers are more encouraged by international support like some of the posters here.
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Jamie
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#443
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#443
(Original post by vienna95)
who are you? Lord Hutton?


whats bull?......
the Palestinians agreed to adopt the Road Map? when the Palestinian people have a leadership acting decisively against terror?
Hamas and Arafat dont want Israel to exist?
suicide bombers did not interrupt the adoption of the plan? why? because any reconciliation with Israel is not acceptable.


[QUOTE
- all the "terrorist" organisations agreed on a ceasefire for 6 months or whatever it was,
glad to see u know ur stuff.



nice choice of publication. but even by their standards that seems a pretty low quality quote youve taken, can i have reference? the truce came about as the PA agreed to start arresting known militants. however, Abu Mazen told the US that he could not effect any action because of the resistance from Arafat. there was no way that this promise could be fulfilled. incidentally, Abbas was the Palestinian PM who said he would end terrorism and subsequently was cold-shouldered by Arafat and received death threats until he resigned. Israel were tracking a Hamas leader who was planning an attack and on hearing that the PA were to be ineffective, took the said target out.




it shows my commitment to the defense of its people.they are a visible force, terrorism is not.
my points have been trying to raise the rather obvious validity and Israeli requirement for checkpoints. im surprised that you have the nerve to post without recognising the concrete concerns of the Israeli people. the checkpoints would remain in place until the settlements had been entirely removed. they continued building settlements? over what time frame?


*shakes head*, who are you kidding? only yourself.



no, he wants the backing of the international community! his policies over the last decades have shown that.
he funds Hamas from the aid funds he receives, there is no politician on the face of this planet who disputes this! he orders the posting and promotion of suicide bombers, israeli destruction is left purposely for media bait. Bush(and dont start on him, because he is the US president who has done most for the palestinians) wont have anything to do with him for a very good reason and that is he does not believe in the peaceful creation of 2-states as most palestinians may, but shares the hatred for Israel that his terrorist organisations feed upon.



and that im afraid is where ur ideas for peace and progress are severely hindered. an Israeli state has been established, they have a right to exist in the world and almost every politician and statesmen involved recognises that the creation of a 2-state region is the best and only way forward. and it may have been Palestine, but the Palestinians never had any control of it.



arabs and muslims living in Israel enjoy the same rights as Jewish Israelis, the same cant be said of those in Palestine.
Bahrak offered the return of land to the Palestinians, he was turned down.
the road map to peace offered the return of the land but the terrorists kept coming.
Sharon offers the same deal, for nothing in return but an end to bombing, they turn it down.



again, you are blinding yourself if you think this is a political point. people on every side of the argument agree on the fundamental belief that Israel and Palestine should exist on that land.
what are you sure about?





they cannot move the settlements without assurances that suicide bombing will cease. the Israeli governments word is stronger than a liar who believes that he can kid everyone into thinking he has no control over UN outlawed terrorist groups.



its a very sick individual who believes suicide bombing against civilians is better than military operations to eliminate terrorists.



see a doctor.



people? which people? people who are proud to be martyrs? people who see this as something to celebrate? they arent driven to it, they enjoy doing it in the belief that they well receive divine preference.



so have i.



sounds fair enough. have u ever been through dover, its the same.
you poor thing...hehe.



tell this tale of pity to the Israeli guards who stripped searched a pleading mother who didnt want to pass through the metal detector..oh, you cant. she blew them to pieces. you claim to have been their yet you show increasing naivety. suicide bombers can take any form and every precaution has to be made. your ridiculous ideas of sympathy or the very weaknesses that cause deaths.


as i was reading this month, the palestinians,or arafat, purposely leaves the result of conflict untouched for the western cameras. the israelis on the other hand have every bomb attack cleaned up within 24 hrs..they like to move on.



hehe, it is ****hole because Arafat spends EU and UN aid on the terrorists. it has nothing to do with israel. the road is a sign of the clear differences in mentality. the israelis striving for progress and the future, while the palestinians live in squalor for the benefit of the leftist intellectuals back in europe.



yes, a truly nice country in the middle of a desperate region.



treat them like scum..?
horrific? because they can enjoy living in a better country, you find this horrific? you clearly are a very warped individual.[/QUOTE]

AS soon as I saw adelz quoting the guardian I knew a right winger like youself would go nuts over it.
Highly predictable
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Jamie
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#444
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#444
(Original post by yawn1)
A very moving account of your experience - nations that are abused go on to abuse in turn - when will it end? Perhaps when US decide to stop giving Israel $3 billion dollars a year.
It's sort of like China - they had an awful time of it in the 2nd world war at the hands of the japanese, and turned round and went nuts after the war.
Example Tibet
(i just watched 7 years in tibet)
J
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Vienna
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#445
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#445
(Original post by foolfarian)
AS soon as I saw adelz quoting the guardian I knew a right winger like youself would go nuts over it.
Highly predictable
thats it? i pass a sarcastic comment over mention of the Guardian, which consitutes barely 1% of the post, and you consider that going nuts? i was 'going nuts' over her points, something which you seem intent on failing at in regard to my replies, indeed, its all highly predictable by now.
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Vienna
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#446
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#446
(Original post by yawn1)
Perhaps when US decide to stop giving Israel $3 billion dollars a year.
perhaps when the EU stops giving Palestinian terrorists millions every year?

mind you, EU member states took Saddam anti-war bribes so im not holding my breath.
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thefish_uk
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#447
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#447
(Original post by vienna95)
perhaps when the EU stops giving Palestinian terrorists millions every year?

mind you, EU member states took Saddam anti-war bribes so im not holding my breath.
Ah, the great Vienna returns and stops the debate dead in its tracks.
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Vienna
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#448
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#448
(Original post by thefish_uk)
Ah, the great Vienna returns and stops the debate dead in its tracks.
i did wonder that. i argue for 5 pages with eternal idol and then as soon as i disappear the thread gets active..hmm
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EI_123
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#449
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#449
(Original post by vienna95)
i did wonder that. i argue for 5 pages with eternal idol and then as soon as i disappear the thread gets active..hmm
That's not my fault, I'm not arguing anymore ...
Indeed the last that I posted here was a question to you, that you didn't answer yet...
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Vienna
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#450
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#450
(Original post by Eternal Idol)
That's not my fault, I'm not arguing anymore ...
Indeed the last that I posted here was a question to you, that you didn't answer yet...
the last thing i noticed was your personal tirade and abuse against me, but maybe i missed it. what page was that?

"And what are you? 100% supporting right wing.
Congratulations, you are a real *****.

I'm gonna laugh a lot if the British goes down and someone opresses them ... what are you going to say? That is ok?

Ass."
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ThornsnRoses
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#451
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#451
still debating?!
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EI_123
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#452
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#452
(Original post by vienna95)
the last thing i noticed was your personal tirade and abuse against me, but maybe i missed it. what page was that?
I don't remember exactly but can't be more than 2 or three.
You said something about that you don't mix politics and humanitary and I said that we have different priorities and asked if you were agree.

I'm not quoting so if it isn't EXACTLY correct don't get mad.
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gemgems89
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#453
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#453
(Original post by vienna95)
i did wonder that. i argue for 5 pages with eternal idol and then as soon as i disappear the thread gets active..hmm
I guess it just proves you're very good at debating and know your stuff!
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EI_123
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#454
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#454
(Original post by ThornsnRoses)
still debating?!
Nope, I've already said what I needed to say.

How you doing?
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Vienna
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#455
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#455
(Original post by Eternal Idol)
I don't remember exactly but can't be more than 2 or three.
You said something about that you don't mix politics and humanitary and I said that we have different priorities and asked if you were agree.

I'm not quoting so if it isn't EXACTLY correct don't get mad.
i wouldnt say different priorities but i look at it from a political point of view perhaps you dont. thats fair enough. but if you going to look at it in humanitarian terms you cant make one-sided references to UK, US policies and what Sharon has been doing in office.
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thefish_uk
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#456
(Original post by Eternal Idol)
Nope, I've already said what I needed to say.

How you doing?
Was that when you dismissed Gems as being irrelevant and then took something I said out of context and used it to back your point?
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EI_123
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#457
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#457
(Original post by vienna95)
i wouldnt say different priorities but i look at it from a political point of view perhaps you dont. thats fair enough. but if you going to look at it in humanitarian terms you cant make one-sided references to UK, US policies and what Sharon has been doing in office.
I would say it, because the most important to me are the people that are opressed and suffering, not several leaders that don't care a **** of his own people.
Sharon should be in jail as any other terrorist, he's a murderer and has been declared guilty by an Israel court.
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EI_123
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#458
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#458
(Original post by thefish_uk)
Was that when you dismissed Gems as being irrelevant and then took something I said out of context and used it to back your point?
I don't know if you read the whole thread but I already said it.

Israel shouldn't exists as nation, that's one the things that I needed to say. Do you like it? No? Too bad.
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Jamie
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#459
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#459
(Original post by vienna95)
thats it? i pass a sarcastic comment over mention of the Guardian, which consitutes barely 1% of the post, and you consider that going nuts? i was 'going nuts' over her points, something which you seem intent on failing at in regard to my replies, indeed, its all highly predictable by now.
Arrogance kicks in...
Let's face it, we're both pretty mart people, both have damned good sources, and both have little regard for each other respective views on, well, most matters. I'm a leftie, you're a rightie. I vote Lib Dem, you vote Tory. I read guardian, you read...(i assume Telegraph or independent, possibly Mail)
Given the time and effort, I can problably counter anything you say, and you can probably do the same.
So why bother?
That's why I tend to skip your posts.
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Jamie
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#460
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#460
(Original post by vienna95)
perhaps when the EU stops giving Palestinian terrorists millions every year?

mind you, EU member states took Saddam anti-war bribes so im not holding my breath.
That's as substantiated as the claims of WMD.
J
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