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Vienna
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#461
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#461
(Original post by foolfarian)
Arrogance kicks in...
Let's face it, we're both pretty mart people, both have damned good sources, and both have little regard for each other respective views on, well, most matters. I'm a leftie, you're a rightie. I vote Lib Dem, you vote Tory. I read guardian, you read...(i assume Telegraph or independent, possibly Mail)
Given the time and effort, I can problably counter anything you say, and you can probably do the same.
So why bother?
That's why I tend to skip your posts.
J
how disappointing....
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Vienna
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#462
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#462
(Original post by foolfarian)
That's as substantiated as the claims of WMD.
J
which claims?
both are substantiated rather well.
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ThornsnRoses
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#463
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#463
(Original post by vienna95)
perhaps when the EU stops giving Palestinian terrorists millions every year?
What happens to the $4 billion Israel recieves annually from the US?
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adelz
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#464
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#464
(Original post by DoctorNO)
I think that is based on the assumption that Israel abused the Palestinians first.
probably as that is what happened.
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adelz
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#465
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#465
(Original post by vienna95)
which claims?
both are substantiated rather well.
vienna what the **** is wrong with you ?! People in palestine live in TERRIBLE conditions. There isnt basic healthcare, schooling, communication, sewage etc. Over 60% of the population get LESS than 1$ a day and a huge majority is unemployed. Ofcourse the EU will give palestine aid - its distributed as food, used to provide schooling, medicine .. Israel is a ****ing rich country and it gets so much aid from the US - for its military, its killing machine. And the US went to war with iraq as they said that they have WMD and they are a global threat, thats why they bypassed the UN and went to war without global approval - which isnt right as no country has the right to be a "global police nation" and the aim of the UN is to settle such disputes peacfully / with consent of all other nations.
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adelz
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#466
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#466
who are you? Lord Hutton?

no Im just a normal person

whats bull?......
the Palestinians agreed to adopt the Road Map? when the Palestinian people have a leadership acting decisively against terror?
Hamas and Arafat dont want Israel to exist?
suicide bombers did not interrupt the adoption of the plan? why? because any reconciliation with Israel is not acceptable.

Palestinians do agree to the road map, the leadership CANNOT act against terror as the people of palestine support the organisations, as their security forces are in ruins due to israeli attacks and as the head of palestine is under house arrest . Many people dont want Israel to exist - I dont want Israel to exist but I think we all accept the fact that it has to exist - there is no other solution and hamas and arafat both know that and both HAVE SAID THAT IF ISRAEL PULLS BACK TO PRE 1967 BORDERS THERE WILL BE PEACE. ITS THAT SIMPLE.
And no Suicide bombers didnt interrupt the adoption of the peace plan - all the organisations had a ceasefire and israel continued targeting militants


glad to see u know ur stuff.

errrr .. yeah .. thats nice ... what, got nothing better to say ?

nice choice of publication. but even by their standards that seems a pretty low quality quote youve taken, can i have reference? the truce came about as the PA agreed to start arresting known militants. however, Abu Mazen told the US that he could not effect any action because of the resistance from Arafat. there was no way that this promise could be fulfilled. incidentally, Abbas was the Palestinian PM who said he would end terrorism and subsequently was cold-shouldered by Arafat and received death threats until he resigned. Israel were tracking a Hamas leader who was planning an attack and on hearing that the PA were to be ineffective, took the said target out.

Yeah you can have a reference, http://www.guardian.co.uk/flash/0,5860,720353,00.html keep on clicking next till you get to 2003 . Plus, why do you need a reference, its common fact that that is true. Anyway, yes the PA did agree to start arresting militants and they did .. all was well for a while but then israel continued killing militants, someone blew himself up, the al aqsa martyrs brigade said that it was a renegade faction and offered an official apology but ... too late, israelis retaliated. And no palestinian official force can do anything against hamas, al aqsa etc. etc. as they are all supported by the people of palestine, they act as humanitarian organisations too and provide a hell of a lot of basic services to palestinians. - it would spark a civil war, a small example is when at that point police surrounded the hamas leaders house and then there were clashes with protestors. The current Palestinian PM also wants peace, also wants to stop terrorism but has said he cant stop it by force and is trying to negotiate. But is getting no support from Israel (definite assurances by them and therefore bargaining chips )

it shows my commitment to the defense of its people.they are a visible force, terrorism is not.
my points have been trying to raise the rather obvious validity and Israeli requirement for checkpoints. im surprised that you have the nerve to post without recognising the concrete concerns of the Israeli people. the checkpoints would remain in place until the settlements had been entirely removed. they continued building settlements? over what time frame?

LOL commitment to the defence of its people .. yeah right ... Their guarantee of defence to its people is to pull back to pre 1967 borders. Checkpoints are IN THE MIDDLE OF PALESTINIAN CONTROLLED TERRITORY as are settlements, both of which have absoloutely no security effect in stopping militants from getting into israel - they are just a land grab. Kofi Annan has also called the Israeli settlements illegal.
And Im surprised YOU have the nerve to post without recognizing the concrete concerns of the Palestinian people - The Israelis are concerned with their safety so - pull back goddamnit and they will ahve safety - all the terrorist organisations have said they will not attack if israel pulls back. Making more settlements, more checkpoints and the life of palestinians harder will just make palestinians hate israelis more, which will mean more militants, more bombers , more deaths.
Yes, they continued building settlements, they have never stopped building them. What do you mean by what timeframe - ever since they are in palestine they've been building settlements.



*shakes head*, who are you kidding? only yourself.
im not kidding anyone actually, he did get the nobel peace prize



no, he wants the backing of the international community! his policies over the last decades have shown that.
he funds Hamas from the aid funds he receives, there is no politician on the face of this planet who disputes this! he orders the posting and promotion of suicide bombers, israeli destruction is left purposely for media bait. Bush(and dont start on him, because he is the US president who has done most for the palestinians) wont have anything to do with him for a very good reason and that is he does not believe in the peaceful creation of 2-states as most palestinians may, but shares the hatred for Israel that his terrorist organisations feed upon.

What policies ? He has always tried to hold talks for peace, he was the one who madethe biggest step to peace so far, he supports the road map, he supports the 2 state solution - where are you getting all your crap from ? and what are you saying .. he signed the oslo accord for backing from the international community ? ROFL .. and .. BUSH has done the most for palestinians ? HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHHAHAHAHAHHA THAT just cracks me up .
You think he shares his money with hamas etc? Id like proof (reference) to that please



and that im afraid is where ur ideas for peace and progress are severely hindered. an Israeli state has been established, they have a right to exist in the world and almost every politician and statesmen involved recognises that the creation of a 2-state region is the best and only way forward. and it may have been Palestine, but the Palestinians never had any control of it.

Errrrr ... I agree with the 2 state solution being the way forward, and even though palestine was a british colony. .i twas still full of palestinians and palestinians did have a word in controlling it - when british left india it became india not .. some other random country .. what are you trying to say here ?
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adelz
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#467
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#467
arabs and muslims living in Israel enjoy the same rights as Jewish Israelis, the same cant be said of those in Palestine.
Bahrak offered the return of land to the Palestinians, he was turned down.
the road map to peace offered the return of the land but the terrorists kept coming.
Sharon offers the same deal, for nothing in return but an end to bombing, they turn it down.

LOL .. Palestine is OCCUPIED TERRITORY therefore under geneva convention israel has to provide for basic services human rights and a certain standard of living - thats not happening. Barak offered the return of land - yeah ofcourse, they all have, but its not enough, its not what palestinians want. they dont want hte right of return of refugees and they dont want to give up east jerusalem - which palestinians want - so tough luck , when they give them that there will be peace - it cant all be whatever israel wants. And what are you saying about sharon who turned what down ? There was a ceasefire, both sides have agreed to the roadmap, israel continued attacking and didnt implement its part of the deal so it fell apart. Also, there are lots of Americans, Europeans, UN aid workers blah blah who live in gaza / westbank and they are treated normally.

again, you are blinding yourself if you think this is a political point. people on every side of the argument agree on the fundamental belief that Israel and Palestine should exist on that land.
what are you sure about?

Im sure of many things including that you are a total idiot. Who says its a political point - I don't remember saying it - why does it have to be political ? Its just a fact which is crucial to understand the core of the problem. And as I have said before, the solutuon for peace is a 2 state solution.
The people of israel used to be russians, polish, czech, german . . europeans with their own houses towns families in their own countries - palestinians are palestinians and their homeland is palestine. The Israelis immigrated from their homelands into the homeland of palestine and took over it. That is wrong, and as far as Im concerned they should all be shipped back to their own countries, but thats impossible, and there will have to be 2 states.






they cannot move the settlements without assurances that suicide bombing will cease. the Israeli governments word is stronger than a liar who believes that he can kid everyone into thinking he has no control over UN outlawed terrorist groups.

The settlements are not there for security - they are just small towns in palestinian controlled areas, its just a land grab - and they have absoloutely NO right to be there. You cant just take over sovereign land and say its for "security" because non affiliated organisations are attacking you. And no Arafat doesnt have any control of them - innocent till proven guilty, prove to me that he does. As far as sharon goes, he seems like quite a liar and thief according to the latest news and his lil scandal.



its a very sick individual who believes suicide bombing against civilians is better than military operations to eliminate terrorists.

LOL .. Im sorry but most of the military operations are to destroy houses of innocent people - lets say some random guy blows himself up they go in and destroy his families house - which is totally wrong. Look at the civillian casualty and look at quotes from an article i posted a couple of hours ago - 5 palestinian kids to 1 israeli, 3 palestinian civillians to one israeli - THAT just says it all . Its a numerical fact that shows in what a manner the IDF operates. The Jenin refugee camp masacre a year ago was also totally covered up, that was totally inhumane and lots of ISRAELI SOLDIERS are refusing to follow orders because they are inhumane and lots of civillians will be killed- yet israel doesnt seem to give a ****. So I dont know who the sick individual is..


see a doctor.
No, you should see one, I think you really should after seeing the lovely splash on your site too


people? which people? people who are proud to be martyrs? people who see this as something to celebrate? they arent driven to it, they enjoy doing it in the belief that they well receive divine preference.

People . The Palestinian people. They are proud to be martyrs as they are fighting for the existence of their country, words alien to us such as honour, valour, patriotism, pride drive them. Yes they are driven to it due to the terrible conditions they live in, due to , if they believe they will receive divine preference then why doesnt everyone just do it and go straight to "heaven".


so have i.
What you've been to Gaza city ?? YEAH right. Maybe you've been to Israel but well that would just bias you even more."


sounds fair enough. have u ever been through dover, its the same.
you poor thing...hehe.
Poor thing ? why ? Ive said nothing about metal detectors or getting searched etc. Thats normal, its a security measure, totally fine. But I dont see my dad being interrogated for an hour and taken photos of while holding a blackboard with his name and details written on it and standing next to a metre ruler as "fair enough" its just humiliation.


tell this tale of pity to the Israeli guards who stripped searched a pleading mother who didnt want to pass through the metal detector..oh, you cant. she blew them to pieces. you claim to have been their yet you show increasing naivety. suicide bombers can take any form and every precaution has to be made. your ridiculous ideas of sympathy or the very weaknesses that cause deaths.

[/b] Errrr ... The woman passed through all the metal detectors etc, was lifting her bags up so they can be checked but she couldnt as she is old like 70 or 80 and she got shouted at because of that. My ridiculous ideas of sypathy ? LOL ... im sorry but you cant just have an iron heart, everyone is a person and must have equal rights. Its fine for people entering a country to go through security checks its totally normal, im talking about how they are treated. They can be asked normally to please go thru the detector or whatever, force, shouting, swearing are not normal methods.[/b]

as i was reading this month, the palestinians,or arafat, purposely leaves the result of conflict untouched for the western cameras. the israelis on the other hand have every bomb attack cleaned up within 24 hrs..they like to move on.
HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA HHAA Maybe its because israel has MONEY something palestinians DONT . How can an average palestinian clean and rebuild their house without money as something like 60% is unemployed ? Are you stupid ?


hehe, it is ****hole because Arafat spends EU and UN aid on the terrorists. it has nothing to do with israel. the road is a sign of the clear differences in mentality. the israelis striving for progress and the future, while the palestinians live in squalor for the benefit of the leftist intellectuals back in europe.

LOL HAHAHAHA Nothing to do with israel ?! HAHAHA .... Palestine is in economic despair due to sanctions, closure of borders by israelis, people cant get to work .. thats why its a ****hole . You are REALLLY oneminded. The israelis are striving for progress ? If they want progress then why dont they stop killing innocent people, ease the life of normal palestinians and pull to pre 1967 borders to that peace can be made.


yes, a truly nice country in the middle of a desperate region.
errrr r .... okay then


treat them like scum..?
horrific? because they can enjoy living in a better country, you find this horrific? you clearly are a very warped individual.[/QUOTE]
Umm no not because they enjoy living in a better country, because innocent palestinians are regurarly rounded up blindfolded and handcuffed for "inspection", because 14 year olds are put in jails for years at a time coz they have been throwing stones, because a wall is being built on palestinian territory that is a land grab, separates children from schools, farmers from farms, because over 3000 civillians are dead, because houses of innocent people are being demolished, because people are being stopped from going to work and therefore cannot provide for their families. Thats why I say palestinians are treated as scum. and I must say you should really think about who exactly the warped individual is.
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DoctorNO
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#468
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#468
(Original post by adelz)
probably as that is what happened.
That too is more of an assumption than fact. "Who started what" is quite difficult to prove. All we could tell is that the arabs started the 1947 war because they were not satisfied with the better end of the deal they got from the U.N. A gamble they lost in misery.
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Vienna
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#469
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#469
(Original post by ThornsnRoses)
What happens to the $4 billion Israel recieves annually from the US?
its 4 billion now and not 3?
i imagine a proportion goes on the IDF, arms, medical services, transport infrastructure, public land development. what happens to the millions that the World Bank and EU give to Arafat?
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adelz
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#470
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#470
(Original post by vienna95)
thats it? i pass a sarcastic comment over mention of the Guardian, which consitutes barely 1% of the post, and you consider that going nuts? i was 'going nuts' over her points, something which you seem intent on failing at in regard to my replies, indeed, its all highly predictable by now.
Im male you idiot. And im not english, im not a left winger or right winger or whatever - I just had the guardian open from some links from Yahoo news yesterday and saw those articles.
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adelz
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#471
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#471
(Original post by DoctorNO)
That too is more of an assumption than fact. "Who started what" is quite difficult to prove. All we could tell is that the arabs started the 1947 war because they were not satisfied with the better end of the deal they got from the U.N. A gamble they lost in misery.
oh my god, please dont start me on "who started it" because everyone knows that the israelis were the agressors and they were the people who started coming into palestine and taking over arab land . Lets just not go so far I mean .. come on.
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material breach
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#472
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#472
(Original post by 'Vienna95)
its 4 billion now and not 3?
i imagine a proportion goes on the IDF, arms, medical services, transport infrastructure, public land development. what happens to the millions that the World Bank and EU give to Arafat?
well i suppose if dont inculde the abrahams tanks which the isrealis use to illegally occupy palestine with then its probably 3
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material breach
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#473
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#473
(Original post by DoctorNO)
That too is more of an assumption than fact. "Who started what" is quite difficult to prove. All we could tell is that the arabs started the 1947 war because they were not satisfied with the better end of the deal they got from the U.N. A gamble they lost in misery.
is it not possible for people to accept that the country is in dispute as to how orginally owned it, whatever that means and try and deal with the situation that we have at the present
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Vienna
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#474
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#474
(Original post by adelz)
vienna what the **** is wrong with you ?! People in palestine live in TERRIBLE conditions. There isnt basic healthcare, schooling, communication, sewage etc. Over 60% of the population get LESS than 1$ a day and a huge majority is unemployed. Ofcourse the EU will give palestine aid - its distributed as food, used to provide schooling, medicine .. Israel is a ****ing rich country and it gets so much aid from the US - for its military, its killing machine.
somewhere in there is an excuse for suicide bombing and an explanation of how aid to Palestine never reaches its intended targets. i think you expect me to justify terrorism based on the fact that i should harbour some socialist pity for the fact that Palestine is run by an anti-Israeli obsessed warmongerer. surely the question is, 'what the f*ck is wrong with YOU.

And the US went to war with iraq as they said that they have WMD and they are a global threat, thats why they bypassed the UN and went to war without global approval - which isnt right as no country has the right to be a "global police nation"
a nation has a right to defend its people. the war was legal in terms in reference to the UN. i think the fact that over 20 countries supported the US or were part of the coalition lends an element of global approval yes. if you read what has been found or what has been uncovered not only in Iraq but in its neighbouring countries, the threat and concern regarding WMD programmes was justified and is real.

and the aim of the UN is to settle such disputes peacfully / with consent of all other nations.
thats its aim yes.
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Vienna
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#475
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#475
(Original post by Speciez99)
well i suppose if dont inculde the abrahams tanks which the isrealis use to illegally occupy palestine with then its probably 3
ok.
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Vienna
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#476
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#476
(Original post by adelz)
Im male you idiot. And im not english, im not a left winger or right winger or whatever - I just had the guardian open from some links from Yahoo news yesterday and saw those articles.
oh dear.
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DoctorNO
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#477
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#477
(Original post by adelz)
oh my god, please dont start me on "who started it" because everyone knows that the israelis were the agressors and they were the people who started coming into palestine and taking over arab land . Lets just not go so far I mean .. come on.
I dont like going that far too but it is unfair to just label somebody without adequate proof. And it is certainly false to assume that "everyone" sees israel as the aggressors. Certainly false for almost everyone is DIVIDED on this issue. That is why it remains an issue.

And Jews LEGALLY BOUGHT much of the land they moved into back in the early 20s & 30s. Other Jews have been living there CONTINUOUSLY FOR CENTURIES. It is certainly not a form of aggression.
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gemgems89
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#478
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#478
(Original post by adelz)
vienna what the **** is wrong with you ?! People in palestine live in TERRIBLE conditions. There isnt basic healthcare, schooling, communication, sewage etc. Over 60% of the population get LESS than 1$ a day and a huge majority is unemployed. Ofcourse the EU will give palestine aid - its distributed as food, used to provide schooling, medicine .. Israel is a ****ing rich country and it gets so much aid from the US - for its military, its killing machine. And the US went to war with iraq as they said that they have WMD and they are a global threat, thats why they bypassed the UN and went to war without global approval - which isnt right as no country has the right to be a "global police nation" and the aim of the UN is to settle such disputes peacfully / with consent of all other nations.
Israel a rich country? Ha, that's why employees earn very little per week. The economy is not very good in Israel. How the hell can you say Israel is rich?!
Geez, stop the research on google and go and use your own arguments, or even better, go there and see! I've been, I know! - You havn't!
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material breach
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#479
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#479
(Original post by Vienna95)
somewhere in there is an excuse for suicide bombing and an explanation of how aid to Palestine never reaches its intended targets. i think you expect me to justify terrorism based on the fact that i should harbour some socialist pity for the fact that Palestine is run by an anti-Israeli obsessed warmongerer. surely the question is, 'what the f*ck is wrong with YOU.
being sane isnt a mental diease. its normal for most people, what good is aid going to be when palestinians dont have freedom of movement in their own country, non offence but their basic human rights are being broken

(Original post by Vienna95)
a nation has a right to defend its people. the war was legal in terms in reference to the UN. i think the fact that over 20 countries supported the US or were part of the coalition lends an element of global approval yes. if you read what has been found or what has been uncovered not only in Iraq but in its neighbouring countries, the threat and concern regarding WMD programmes was justified and is real.
please do explain why iraq was a threat to any american city you care to name? most of countries ie poland supported america so they could get more trade eg american misslies
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#480
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#480
(Original post by gemgems89)
Israel a rich country? Ha, that's why employees earn very little per week. The economy is not very good in Israel. How the hell can you say Israel is rich?!
Geez, stop the research on google and go and use your own arguments, or even better, go there and see! I've been, I know! - You havn't!
That depends if you compare Israel to Japan or to Nigeria.
If you compare the wages of Israeli people and Palestinean people you will see that the first ones are really really higher.
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