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yawn1
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#721
Report 16 years ago
#721
http://edm.ais.co.uk/weblink/html/motion.html/ref=407

This link goes to the House of Commons Early Day Motion no. 407 signed by 173 MP's. It calls on Israel to cease immediately, the building of its Separation Wall deep within Palestinian territory and gives the reasons why.
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Sweetpeaz
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#722
Report 16 years ago
#722
(Original post by foolfarian)
if it's a battle of religion age, what about the egyptians who inhabited the land before the jews? you do recall that ancient egypt stretched a damn sight larger than it does today - into israel for starters.
and we are talking well into the BC
J
so the land belongs to neither the palestians nor the israelis.. in which case it is impossible to determine who can have it! we're no better than animals fighting over their territory.

land belongs to no one.. its a part of earth. it was not made for humans to fight over! it was made by natural processes waay before humans existed, so technically we have no right to own it! i wish everyone could just act like human beings - compromise.. share it! (might be too late now tho. too much hate.)
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Jonatan
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#723
Report 16 years ago
#723
(Original post by aliel)
Well the Palestian civilians seem to be, they are not distinguished. So unfortunately i don't see the vicious circle ending anytime soon
I can quite honestly guarantee you that if the Israely army did not distinguish between terrorists and civilians, the number of civilian palestinians kileld would be way higher. The main reason civilians die in military incursions is because terrorist orginisation operate from heavily populated areas, and thus many of them get caught in crossfire. Otherwise, I agree that the consequence of military incursions is quite the opposite of their intention if the civilian death toll is great as compared to the number of atacks against terrorists. This is why I favour more passive methods of defense, such as barriers and stricter border controlls.
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Jonatan
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#724
Report 16 years ago
#724
(Original post by yawn1)
http://edm.ais.co.uk/weblink/html/motion.html/ref=407

This link goes to the House of Commons Early Day Motion no. 407 signed by 173 MP's. It calls on Israel to cease immediately, the building of its Separation Wall deep within Palestinian territory and gives the reasons why.
Th eproblem with politics is that public opinion over here may differ quite significantly from the one over there. After all, if all governments and people agreed all teh time we would have no wars. Clearly there are pros and cons with teh defensive barrier, and Israel has evaluated the positive sides as more important than thenegatives. Britain may disagree, but these are after all only opinions. The main problem in this issue is that if you do not construct a wall, Israel will need other measures to prevent suecide bombings, and given the situation the alternatives are not that good. Personally I think they are correct in constructing the barrier, but to keep those settlements in place as if Israels existance depended on them is pretty stupid. Id say the best thing Israel could do right now is to move the construction of the wall away from palestinian villages and remove the settlements.
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curryADD
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#725
Report 16 years ago
#725
(Original post by Jonatan)
Th eproblem with politics is that public opinion over here may differ quite significantly from the one over there. After all, if all governments and people agreed all teh time we would have no wars. Clearly there are pros and cons with teh defensive barrier, and Israel has evaluated the positive sides as more important than thenegatives. Britain may disagree, but these are after all only opinions. The main problem in this issue is that if you do not construct a wall, Israel will need other measures to prevent suecide bombings, and given the situation the alternatives are not that good. Personally I think they are correct in constructing the barrier, but to keep those settlements in place as if Israels existance depended on them is pretty stupid. Id say the best thing Israel could do right now is to move the construction of the wall away from palestinian villages and remove the settlements.
i would agree, the settlements are pointless.
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ThornsnRoses
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#726
Report 16 years ago
#726
(Original post by Jonatan)
I can quite honestly guarantee you that if the Israely army did not distinguish between terrorists and civilians, the number of civilian palestinians kileld would be way higher.
4:1 Palestinians are killed against Israelis...and a ridiculous number of them are children, but Israelis have a ready excuse and that’s (can you believe they claim this?) that Palestinian parents put their children on the front line as a propaganda ploy...oh the hilarity!
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Jonatan
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#727
Report 16 years ago
#727
(Original post by ThornsnRoses)
4:1 Palestinians are killed against Israelis...and a ridiculous number of them are children, but Israelis have a ready excuse and that’s (can you believe they claim this?) that Palestinian parents put their children on the front line as a propaganda ploy...oh the hilarity!
Well, it is partially true actually. It has been a trend among palestinian youth to go raids throwing stones at Israeli checkpoints. It has actually gine so far that these stone throwing raids do not cease even when countered with sharp amunition. During the recent intifada, Yasser Arafat went on public television when these raids were at a peak , declaring that all palestinian children should get free from school and he encouraged them to participate in throwing stoens at Israeli soldiers. Also, the high number of palestinian deaths as compared to Israeli is most likely due to the strict Israely defense. Palestinian terrorists basicly doesnt manage to kill as many Israelis as they would want to. Furthermore, as palestinian militants take cover in heavily populated areas, many civilians are likely to be cought in crossfire if the Israely forces try to atack the militant orginisations. Hopefully, the construction of the defensive barrier will decrease the need for these military incursions, and may thus reduce the palestinian civlilian death toll.
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Jamie
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#728
Report 16 years ago
#728
(Original post by Jonatan)
Well, it is partially true actually. It has been a trend among palestinian youth to go raids throwing stones at Israeli checkpoints. It has actually gine so far that these stone throwing raids do not cease even when countered with sharp amunition. During the recent intifada, Yasser Arafat went on public television when these raids were at a peak , declaring that all palestinian children should get free from school and he encouraged them to participate in throwing stoens at Israeli soldiers. Also, the high number of palestinian deaths as compared to Israeli is most likely due to the strict Israely defense. Palestinian terrorists basicly doesnt manage to kill as many Israelis as they would want to. Furthermore, as palestinian militants take cover in heavily populated areas, many civilians are likely to be cought in crossfire if the Israely forces try to atack the militant orginisations. Hopefully, the construction of the defensive barrier will decrease the need for these military incursions, and may thus reduce the palestinian civlilian death toll.
Even a suicide bomber on a packed bus will never kill as many as a missile strike on a couple of cars going through a market
J
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yawn1
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#729
Report 16 years ago
#729
I think the construction of the 'Separation Wall' needs more thinking through on this forum.

If a huge wall is built to keep out a people from persuing their livelihoods and any normality of living you create an even more intense anger! This anger wll spill totally out of control spreading to neighbouring countries and involving mightier strengths. You cannot stamp on a nation and expect compliance and subservience. Humans don't work like that.

Walls have never solved anything - witness Berlin Wall, 'peace' walls in Northern Ireland. Cease fires alongside constructive talks encompassing concessions from both sides are the only solution. And an admission that both sides are suffering. And most important, parity of esteem i.e. both sides come from an equal validity despite any notions of rightiousness.
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Jamie
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#730
Report 16 years ago
#730
Sorry to drag this debate up again, but I'm curious to hear Vienna, Gemgems views on this...

"Alongside the thin grey road snaking up towards the settlement outpost, banners billowed, as if straining at the leash. "The battle begins in Migron," they proclaimed in Hebrew.

Some of them looked like they were about to be ripped off the fence posts by the wind.

But they clung on, just like the people who put them there, the Jewish settlers who believe they have a religious duty to colonise this land, who vow that nothing and no-one will push them away.

And so they've put down what pass for roots here, just a 20 minute drive north of Jerusalem on the West Bank.

This barren place could one day be part of an independent Palestinian state. But the Jewish settlers in their outpost say that as part of the Biblical land of Israel, it is truly theirs.

On the hill at Migron a cluster of pale-cream coloured trailers were huddled together.

Pushchairs and small bikes were scattered around. A pink rose bush grew defiantly in the hard stony earth.

On the fence around the kindergarten, coloured plastic streamers beat against each other, dancing in the wind.

A single armed guard by the settlement gate looked on.

Creating facts on the ground

There are now 43 families in Migron. Five years ago there was nothing, it was empty land.

Then someone had the idea of applying for a licence, to put a cellular phone mast on this unremarkable hilltop.

The mast needed a road leading to it. That got built and the engineers needed some trailers and they were dragged up the hill.

But instead of engineers, settlers moved in, and a new community was born.

Illegal in the eyes of the world, a liability to many Israelis, but no-one should doubt the determination of the young families which have settled here.

And so from a muddy building site it grew, as they always do - electricity lines, water supplies - the state of Israel nourishing its pioneers.

It's happened under every government since the Oslo peace accords were signed in 1993.

No matter what their political hue, governments have funded expansion. Scattered throughout the Israeli budget are huge sums of money, hundreds of millions of pounds every year, which support the settlers - from the transportation ministry, the defence ministry, the housing ministry.

Facts on the ground don't come cheap.

'Seize every hilltop'

But now, surely not, the settlers sense betrayal. Ariel Sharon was the father of the settlement programme.

"Seize every hilltop" he urged a few years ago, before the hills themselves are negotiated away. Has he really changed his mind?

Or is it convenient bluster, telling the Americans what they want to hear?

Alon Levy is the mayor of Migron. He grew up in a settlement, also on occupied land - now an established neighbourhood with houses and gardens and community centres.

"My parents had a few years of struggle to hold that place", Alon told me. "It'll be the same here. A few years of struggle for us, but we'll stay."

"And then my kids will create a new place to live and they'll have to struggle too. The Bible tells us there's always work to be done".

And another struggle is fast approaching. The settlers believe Mr Sharon isn't bluffing this time. Whatever his reasons, he is ready to take down a few small outposts like Migron.

But Migron is ready to stop him. "We have lists, we have communication networks", Alon says quietly. "Thousands of people will come here. And they can't move us all".

Demographic battle

There are now nearly a quarter of a million Jewish settlers in the West Bank and Gaza and the numbers are increasing all the time.

Some of them would leave if they were given financial compensation. Others will keep their homes in land adjustments under any future peace deal.

Within a few years there will be more Arabs than Jews in Israel and the Palestinian territories combined

But there's a hard core who don't talk about agreement. If international law doesn't recognise this as Israel, I was told, then international law will have to change.

But it's the Palestinians who are winning the numbers game. Within a few years there will be more Arabs than Jews in Israel and the Palestinian territories combined.

Is that why Mr Sharon talks of unilateral disengagement because he needs to let the Arabs go?

Is it why Mr Arafat seems in no hurry to make compromises, because he still harbours dreams of having it all?

From the Jewish settlers in Migron there is no ambiguity, no diplomatic fudge.

Aren't they swimming against the tide? They don't seem to think so. They see themselves deeply rooted in thousands of years of history.

It's utterly uncompromising, and it made me think: "The battle begins in Migron"? No. It began a long time ago.

This is just another passing phase, and Migron is not so much a drop in the ocean as a single stone in a harsh landscape, which two competing peoples call home. "

J
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Jamie
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#731
Report 16 years ago
#731
whoops should have mentioned the attachment lists all (cept gaza city) the biggest israeli settlements in gaza - just to illustrate how deep into the territory they go.
And you'll note there is no wall around gaza - such a thing would be pointless given it would stop suicide bombers getting into israel - and settlers getting into gaza.
looks like they have their priorities then
J
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gemgems89
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#732
Report 16 years ago
#732
First of all, where is this from? Who wrote it?
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yawn1
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#733
Report 16 years ago
#733
(Original post by gemgems89)
First of all, where is this from? Who wrote it?
Come on gemgems - stop trying to evade the question

What relevance is where the article came from? Just give an opinion.
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gemgems89
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#734
Report 16 years ago
#734
(Original post by yawn1)
Come on gemgems - stop trying to evade the question

What relevance is where the article came from? Just give an opinion.
No I'll start commenting once I know where it's from.
For all I know it could be very bias, especially if written by someone against Israel.
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kildare
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#735
Report 16 years ago
#735
(Original post by gemgems89)
No I'll start commenting once I know where it's from.
For all I know it could be very bias, especially if written by someone against Israel.
Why don't you deal with what's in front of you? Surely if it was biased you'd be able to spot that without knowing the source.
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gemgems89
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#736
Report 16 years ago
#736
(Original post by kildare)
Why don't you deal with what's in front of you? Surely if it was biased you'd be able to spot that without knowing the source.
What exactly is there to deal with? I don't know what the point of that article/story is.

Yawn, "evade the question" - what question?
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kildare
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#737
Report 16 years ago
#737
It's from the BBC by the way.
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username9816
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#738
Report 16 years ago
#738
(Original post by kildare)
It's from the BBC by the way.
dont always believe what u read in the paper.
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EI_123
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#739
Report 16 years ago
#739
(Original post by bono)
dont always believe what u read in the paper.
Yes, only believe it when is consistent with every other information, like in this case.
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yawn1
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#740
Report 16 years ago
#740
(Original post by gemgems89)
No I'll start commenting once I know where it's from.
For all I know it could be very bias, especially if written by someone against Israel.
I can't see what difference it makes where the article is from. The writer makes observations about what they are seeing - it could well be from someone who is against the occupation. So what! Supposing it's written by someone sympathetic to Israelis - would your answer be any different?

I'm beginning to think you are procrastinating and may be relying on Vienna to bail you out. She's away for the next few days so no more delay
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