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kildare
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#741
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#741
(Original post by bono)
dont always believe what u read in the paper.
Thanks for the tip.
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yawn1
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#742
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#742
(Original post by foolfarian)
Sorry to drag this debate up again, but I'm curious to hear Vienna, Gemgems views on this...

"Alongside the thin grey road snaking up towards the settlement outpost, banners billowed, as if straining at the leash. "The battle begins in Migron," they proclaimed in Hebrew.

Some of them looked like they were about to be ripped off the fence posts by the wind.

But they clung on, just like the people who put them there, the Jewish settlers who believe they have a religious duty to colonise this land, who vow that nothing and no-one will push them away.

And so they've put down what pass for roots here, just a 20 minute drive north of Jerusalem on the West Bank.

This barren place could one day be part of an independent Palestinian state. But the Jewish settlers in their outpost say that as part of the Biblical land of Israel, it is truly theirs.

On the hill at Migron a cluster of pale-cream coloured trailers were huddled together.

Pushchairs and small bikes were scattered around. A pink rose bush grew defiantly in the hard stony earth.

On the fence around the kindergarten, coloured plastic streamers beat against each other, dancing in the wind.

A single armed guard by the settlement gate looked on.

Creating facts on the ground

There are now 43 families in Migron. Five years ago there was nothing, it was empty land.

Then someone had the idea of applying for a licence, to put a cellular phone mast on this unremarkable hilltop.

The mast needed a road leading to it. That got built and the engineers needed some trailers and they were dragged up the hill.

But instead of engineers, settlers moved in, and a new community was born.

Illegal in the eyes of the world, a liability to many Israelis, but no-one should doubt the determination of the young families which have settled here.

And so from a muddy building site it grew, as they always do - electricity lines, water supplies - the state of Israel nourishing its pioneers.

It's happened under every government since the Oslo peace accords were signed in 1993.

No matter what their political hue, governments have funded expansion. Scattered throughout the Israeli budget are huge sums of money, hundreds of millions of pounds every year, which support the settlers - from the transportation ministry, the defence ministry, the housing ministry.

Facts on the ground don't come cheap.

'Seize every hilltop'

But now, surely not, the settlers sense betrayal. Ariel Sharon was the father of the settlement programme.

"Seize every hilltop" he urged a few years ago, before the hills themselves are negotiated away. Has he really changed his mind?

Or is it convenient bluster, telling the Americans what they want to hear?

Alon Levy is the mayor of Migron. He grew up in a settlement, also on occupied land - now an established neighbourhood with houses and gardens and community centres.

"My parents had a few years of struggle to hold that place", Alon told me. "It'll be the same here. A few years of struggle for us, but we'll stay."

"And then my kids will create a new place to live and they'll have to struggle too. The Bible tells us there's always work to be done".

And another struggle is fast approaching. The settlers believe Mr Sharon isn't bluffing this time. Whatever his reasons, he is ready to take down a few small outposts like Migron.

But Migron is ready to stop him. "We have lists, we have communication networks", Alon says quietly. "Thousands of people will come here. And they can't move us all".

Demographic battle

There are now nearly a quarter of a million Jewish settlers in the West Bank and Gaza and the numbers are increasing all the time.

Some of them would leave if they were given financial compensation. Others will keep their homes in land adjustments under any future peace deal.

Within a few years there will be more Arabs than Jews in Israel and the Palestinian territories combined

But there's a hard core who don't talk about agreement. If international law doesn't recognise this as Israel, I was told, then international law will have to change.

But it's the Palestinians who are winning the numbers game. Within a few years there will be more Arabs than Jews in Israel and the Palestinian territories combined.

Is that why Mr Sharon talks of unilateral disengagement because he needs to let the Arabs go?

Is it why Mr Arafat seems in no hurry to make compromises, because he still harbours dreams of having it all?

From the Jewish settlers in Migron there is no ambiguity, no diplomatic fudge.

Aren't they swimming against the tide? They don't seem to think so. They see themselves deeply rooted in thousands of years of history.

It's utterly uncompromising, and it made me think: "The battle begins in Migron"? No. It began a long time ago.

This is just another passing phase, and Migron is not so much a drop in the ocean as a single stone in a harsh landscape, which two competing peoples call home. "

J
gemgems - the question is - what are your views on this?
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gemgems89
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#743
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#743
(Original post by yawn1)
I can't see what difference it makes where the article is from. The writer makes observations about what they are seeing - it could well be from someone who is against the occupation. So what! Supposing it's written by someone sympathetic to Israelis - would your answer be any different?

I'm beginning to think you are procrastinating and may be relying on Vienna to bail you out. She's away for the next few days so no more delay
I don't need to rely on other people. I have my own thoughts, thanks.
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yawn1
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#744
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#744
(Original post by gemgems89)
I don't need to rely on other people. I have my own thoughts, thanks.
OK - I don't want you to think I'm trying to bully you into making a statement you're obviously not ready to make. Peace
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DoctorNO
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#745
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#745
(Original post by yawn1)
If a huge wall is built to keep out a people from persuing their livelihoods and any normality of living you create an even more intense anger!
The main purpose of the wall is to keep out unwanted visitors. Unfortunately it would cut off the livelihood of the arabs who trade with israel. But for the owner of the wall the lives of their loved ones take higher priority.

(Original post by yawn1)
This anger wll spill totally out of control spreading to neighbouring countries and involving mightier strengths.
This conflict already involves neighboring countries some of which are still formally at war with Israel. They are just not strong enough to drive the jews into the seas as their leaders have promised 50 years ago.

(Original post by yawn1)
Walls have never solved anything - witness Berlin Wall, 'peace' walls in Northern Ireland.
No wall by itself solved anything. But they do help a lot in hindering a threat. I think the wall in question would greatly delay the rounds of aggression from both sides to give enough time to peaceful negotiations.

(Original post by yawn1)
Cease fires alongside constructive talks encompassing concessions from both sides are the only solution.
And this wall is supposed to help Cease fires from being broken by suicide bombers. After this wall is built and bombings are greatly reduced then the israeli army would no more have the justifications to assassinate enemy leaders. Thus giving time for meaningful talks.
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thefish_uk
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#746
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#746
Personally, my view on the wall is that it is the most unfriendly structure imaginable. Like the concrete blocks they put on motorway contraflows, just 2 metres or higher!

It's going to do nothing to make people more comfortable - well it wouldn't make me comfortable if it was in my back yard. In fact, I don't know the specification of this wall but I'd be paranoid, staring at it, waiting for the moment when someone breaches it and I wouldn't have any warning because of the wall itself obstructing my view.
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DoctorNO
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#747
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#747
(Original post by thefish_uk)
Personally, my view on the wall is that it is the most unfriendly structure imaginable. Like the concrete blocks they put on motorway contraflows, just 2 metres or higher!
Some locations are famous for its walls. It may be unfriendly but people understand other people's need for security.

My only issue with that Israel Wall is that some of it are built on Palestinian land. :mad:

Anyway the bright side on this is that it would also prevent illegal settlers.
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thefish_uk
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#748
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#748
(Original post by DoctorNO)
Some locations are famous for its walls. It may be unfriendly but people understand other people's need for security.

My only issue with that Israel Wall is that some of it are built on Palestinian land. :mad:

Anyway the bright side on this is that it would also prevent illegal settlers.
Grarr,

Maybe if it was a really cool wall like Hadrian's Wall or the Great Wall Of China.

But no, it's a big nasty concrete one and will end when either people start attacking it or the Israeli authorities take the concrete blocks back where they came from.

On second thoughts, perhaps people in 2000 years will call the big concrete wall a historical monument.
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gemgems89
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#749
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#749
(Original post by yawn1)
gemgems - the question is - what are your views on this?
(Original post by foolfarian)
No matter what their political hue, governments have funded expansion. Scattered throughout the Israeli budget are huge sums of money, hundreds of millions of pounds every year
Oh come on. Millions of pounds coming in? Doesn't make a scrap of difference! Look at Israel's economy! We've been through this discussion before. Like I've said previously, job employment and job wages are very very low.

I believe this is a very bias article, and I'd like to hear a story from the Israeli's point of view!
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kildare
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#750
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#750
(Original post by gemgems89)
I believe this is a very bias article, and I'd like to hear a story from the Israeli's point of view!
Which would obviously be completly impartial.
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gemgems89
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#751
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#751
(Original post by kildare)
Which would obviously be completly impartial.
Which would obviously show both sides to the story.

That article is searching for sympathy.
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llama boy
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#752
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#752
I think now is as good a time as any to take a moment to reflect on how this all started.

I'm only going to post once on this forum, so listen up.

I'm SICK and TIRED of people even having to ask each other's opinions on the Israeli/Palestinian issue - it should be obvious to all right-thinking people.
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kildare
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#753
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#753
(Original post by gemgems89)
Which would obviously show both sides to the story.

That article is searching for sympathy.
So an article written by one of the parties involved would obviously show both sides whereas one written by a third party would only be 'searching for sympathy'. Right.
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gemgems89
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#754
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#754
(Original post by llama boy)
I think now is as good a time as any to take a moment to reflect on how this all started.
..your point is?
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llama boy
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#755
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#755
(Original post by gemgems89)
..your point is?
that i'm right and you're wrong.

so ner.
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gemgems89
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#756
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#756
(Original post by kildare)
So an article written by one of the parties involved would obviously show both sides whereas one written by a third party would only be 'searching for sympathy'. Right.
But is this article showing both sides of the story...
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gemgems89
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#757
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#757
(Original post by llama boy)
that i'm right and you're wrong.

so ner.
Err right. Are you actually involved in this debate? No. You're wrong.
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MadNatSci
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#758
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#758
(Original post by gemgems89)
Which would obviously show both sides to the story.

That article is searching for sympathy.

All articles about the Arab-Israeli conflict are searching for sympathy. That's part of the problem.

Personally I think they're all at fault. The Arab countries shouldn't be ganging up on Israel and trying to drive them into the sea, but then what are the Jewish settlers doing on the Gaza strip? It's against international law for them to be there. The Palestinians do, after all, need somewhere to live. On the other hand, until they stop bombing Israeli civilians how can they expect support? Nah, it's six of one and half a dozen of the other.
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Jamie
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#759
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#759
(Original post by gemgems89)
Which would obviously show both sides to the story.

That article is searching for sympathy.
My point was that the sources are israeli. Why don't you take the time to listen to settlers views. or look at the map. There's no disputing that the settlements are deep into Palestinians territory. The article was BBC, it was writtena while back, but I read it today as background to the story that Sharon has decided to try and evacuate the settlements.
It was Sharon (and previous governemnts) who encouraged these settlements, but whther this is an attempt to placate the US, or an actual reversal, he has done a 180 degree turn.
This of course has peeved the settlers (who have worked hard to make these places their homes) but when push comes to shove, they belong there like gypsies on Eton playing field.

I the basic question given that these settlements are fact (no 2 ways about it) is do you think (like the settlers themselves do) that they are justified due to the bible.

When push comes to shove, i think this debate might lie in religious faith somewhat. In which case there would be no point me trying to argue the reasonable point of view (or what i percieve as being reasonable)
J
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gemgems89
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#760
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#760
(Original post by MadNatSci)
All articles about the Arab-Israeli conflict are searching for sympathy. That's part of the problem.

Personally I think they're all at fault. The Arab countries shouldn't be ganging up on Israel and trying to drive them into the sea, but then what are the Jewish settlers doing on the Gaza strip? It's against international law for them to be there. The Palestinians do, after all, need somewhere to live. On the other hand, until they stop bombing Israeli civilians how can they expect support? Nah, it's six of one and half a dozen of the other.
Well yes. If the bombs would stop in Israel, therefore making peace, Israel would withdraw.
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