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Jonatan
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#921
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#921
(Original post by DoctorNO)
And dont forget that Jews are also oppressed in the Islamic states around arabia and north africa.
There is one exception though.

Marocco refused to deport any fo their Jewish citizens to teh Nazis. And that alone is better than Hungary and a few other European countries.
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thefish_uk
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#922
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#922
(Original post by Jonatan)
Well, you can hardly blame the Jews for migrating into palestine. I mean, it was either that or remaining in Europe which was occupied by teh nazis. These peopel did not simply go there cus they wanted social benefits or better work conditions, they fled because they had no choice. Britain and the US only accepted that many refugees during WW2 so most Jews still remaining in Europe culd choose between Jerusalem and Auschwitz. Not a very difficult choice to make if you ask me... Also, the Jews which emigrated before the outburst of WW2 did it for the very same reason. Antisemitism. Anstisemitism was increasing in Europe ( culminating in the holocoust during WW2) and as many Jews beleived that britain were going to declare a portion of Palestine a Jewish state they moved there.
Exactly...

The arguments for the Jews deserving the land of Israel may seem dubious sometimes, but when you look at information like that you see that they probably do have a moral case after all.

And antisemitism is something I feel quite strongly about now. It's not just pointless discrimination, it's targeted at a specific group of innocent people for purely religious reasons. If anybody here says anything antisemitist they'll get a storm of neg rep, I'll see to that.
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Jamie
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#923
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#923
(Original post by Jonatan)
Well, you can hardly blame the Jews for migrating into palestine. I mean, it was either that or remaining in Europe which was occupied by teh nazis. These peopel did not simply go there cus they wanted social benefits or better work conditions, they fled because they had no choice. Britain and the US only accepted that many refugees during WW2 so most Jews still remaining in Europe culd choose between Jerusalem and Auschwitz. Not a very difficult choice to make if you ask me... Also, the Jews which emigrated before the outburst of WW2 did it for the very same reason. Antisemitism. Anstisemitism was increasing in Europe ( culminating in the holocoust during WW2) and as many Jews beleived that britain were going to declare a portion of Palestine a Jewish state they moved there.
But you can also not blame the palestinians for being a bit narked.
Just look how much fuss the papers make about illegal immigrants coming into this country. And thats in the order of a hundred thousand in a population of 60million
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Jamie
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#924
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#924
(Original post by thefish_uk)
Exactly...

The arguments for the Jews deserving the land of Israel may seem dubious sometimes, but when you look at information like that you see that they probably do have a moral case after all.

And antisemitism is something I feel quite strongly about now. It's not just pointless discrimination, it's targeted at a specific group of innocent people for purely religious reasons. If anybody here says anything antisemitist they'll get a storm of neg rep, I'll see to that.
im glad you can realise the difference between my being agsint israel, and being anti-semitic. Others pair the two up intrinsically. (not least the israelis themselves)
J
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Jamie
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#925
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#925
(Original post by DoctorNO)
AGREED!



Oooh now I remember. But I still dont see its connection with landgrabbings. Palestine at that time had some 700,000 arabs living in it. Which is still way too small to settle the entire land. The jewish immigrants mostly settled on unsettled land. They even drained swamplands. Perhaps there are some very small cases of land grabbing but that cannot be used to condemn the whole.
ahh i see. so if a sovereign state is not using a bit of land it is fair game then?
I think im gonna go bag me some sahara desert
J
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Jamie
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#926
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#926
(Original post by Sweetpeaz)
"Following World War II, the British withdrew from their mandate of Palestine, and the UN partitioned the area into Arab AND Jewish states"
yes. this happened after the exodus, and a series of attacks by jewish hardliners
J
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Jonatan
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#927
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#927
(Original post by foolfarian)
But you can also not blame the palestinians for being a bit narked.
Just look how much fuss the papers make about illegal immigrants coming into this country. And thats in the order of a hundred thousand in a population of 60million
J
Well, in the beginings the people who are now known as the palestinians actually did not bother that much about it. It was the surrounding Arab states who launched a series of atacks against Israel who kept the conflict going for some fifty years. The problem is that the palestinians have been obandoned by the arab states and now do not have much of a government or an authority. Therefore terrorist orginisations get free hands and can take advantage of the situation. Th efact that the palestinian government is more or less a dictatorship which is corrupted to the core doesn't exactly help the situation.
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Jonatan
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#928
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#928
(Original post by foolfarian)
yes. this happened after the exodus, and a series of attacks by jewish hardliners
J
It is worth mentioning that you had similar atacks the other way. The massacre in 1929 is an example of this...
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Jamie
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#929
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#929
(Original post by thefish_uk)
AH, alright...

So in the early-mid 20th century a load of Jews just decided to... go there? And they set up a country called Israel?

So do you believe it's all their fault?

We did have the "Do the Jews have a genuine claim to the land?" argument earlier in this thread I believe.
They migrated en-mass to claim land in a sovereign state. This whole movement started in the late 19th century.
You have to remember that the jewish population had been disseminated for many centuries (and yes, persecuted wildly). They went back to their 'promised lands' backed by alot more resources and power than they had ever had before.
I don't believe in their god given right to the land no. I do think they should have the right to practice their religion in peace, but wouldn't go as far as giving them an entire country from people who had been there hundreds of years to do so.
J
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Jamie
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#930
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#930
(Original post by Jonatan)
It is worth mentioning that you had similar atacks the other way. The massacre in 1929 is an example of this...
Certainly. That's one of the reasons of course the british wanted rid as soon as possible. They were stuck between 2 factions.
One was always going to end up more powerful, and it just happened to be the zionists.
J
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Jonatan
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#931
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#931
(Original post by foolfarian)
They migrated en-mass to claim land in a sovereign state. This whole movement started in the late 19th century.
You have to remember that the jewish population had been disseminated for many centuries (and yes, persecuted wildly). They went back to their 'promised lands' backed by alot more resources and power than they had ever had before.
I don't believe in their god given right to the land no. I do think they should have the right to practice their religion in peace, but wouldn't go as far as giving them an entire country from people who had been there hundreds of years to do so.
J
Well, there were Jews in the Areas before the divition. In fact, the first partition plan was set so that the Area's which were intended to become a Jewish state had a large majority of Jewish residents. Ok, these Jews were immigrants who ha moved there due to the antisemitism in Europe and WW2, but then it was not really an option to send them anywhere else and due to the conflict and the fact that many of these Jews were Auschwitz survivors it would simply not have worked to have a single state. Also I think you are a bit wrong when you say "They migrated en-mass to claim land in a sovereign state.". To the majority of these Jews there were not many options. It was either palestine or remaining in Europe. Due to the antisemitism in Europe it wa not strange that so many of them chosed to go to palestine. Also, remember that quite a large number of these Jews bought their land from palestinians fair and square.
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Jonatan
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#932
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#932
(Original post by foolfarian)
Certainly. That's one of the reasons of course the british wanted rid as soon as possible. They were stuck between 2 factions.
One was always going to end up more powerful, and it just happened to be the zionists.
J
Be carefull when you classify the two sides. Many of these Jew were not really zionists or supporters of zionism, but simply people who had fled Europe. Much liek assylum seekers today.
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Jamie
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#933
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#933
(Original post by Jonatan)
Be carefull when you classify the two sides. Many of these Jew were not really zionists or supporters of zionism, but simply people who had fled Europe. Much liek assylum seekers today.
indeed. we don't like how asylum seekers travel through developed countries to come here, and the palestinians didn't like it either. you have to recall much migration occured after the war. Not least because everyone was pearched on suggestions that an israeli state would be created
Bring back the kingdom of kent i say
J
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DoctorNO
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#934
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#934
(Original post by foolfarian)
ahh i see. so if a sovereign state is not using a bit of land it is fair game then?
Palestine before 1947 IS NOT a sovereign state. Any unsettled land that does not belong to a sovereign state is fair game my friend.

(Original post by foolfarian)
I think im gonna go bag me some sahara desert
Sorry but the sahara is fully bagged. Try antarctica.
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DoctorNO
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#935
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#935
(Original post by foolfarian)
They migrated en-mass to claim land in a sovereign state.
foolfarian, how do you define "sovereign state"?

(Original post by foolfarian)
but wouldn't go as far as giving them an entire country from people who had been there hundreds of years to do so.
The U.N. gave them the barren half of the land. Mostly unsettled.
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DoctorNO
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#936
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#936
www . ict.org.il/casualties_project/stats_page.cfm

Breakdown of Fatalities in the Palestinian-Israeli Conflict: 27 September
2000 through 10 February 2004

Total: Palestinians 2627 Israelis 895
Female: Palestinians 119 Israelis 282

Non-Combatants killed by Opposite Side
Total: Palestinians 945 Israelis 695
Female: Palestinians 88 Israelis 277

Combatants killed by Opposite Side
Palestinians 1222 Israelis 182

People killed by actions of own side
Palestinians 338 Israelis 20

Non-Combatants below age 12
Palestinians 76 Israelis 36

Non-Combatant Males between ages 12-29
Palestinians 514 Israelis 172

Non-Combatants Aged >= 45
Palestinians 80 Israelis 221



Armed masked terrorists taking up firing positions surrounded by Palestinian boys and young men.

www . haaretz.co.il/hasite/images/printed/P120204/a.0.1202.20.2.9.jpg
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adelz
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#937
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#937
www . ict.org.il/casualties_project/stats_page.cfm

Breakdown of Fatalities in the Palestinian-Israeli Conflict: 27 September
2000 through 10 February 2004

Total: Palestinians 2627 Israelis 895
Female: Palestinians 119 Israelis 282

Non-Combatants killed by Opposite Side
Total: Palestinians 945 Israelis 695
Female: Palestinians 88 Israelis 277

Combatants killed by Opposite Side
Palestinians 1222 Israelis 182

People killed by actions of own side
Palestinians 338 Israelis 20

Non-Combatants below age 12
Palestinians 76 Israelis 36

Non-Combatant Males between ages 12-29
Palestinians 514 Israelis 172

Non-Combatants Aged >= 45
Palestinians 80 Israelis 221
Yeah Sure, take it off an israeli site, it wont be biased AT ALL !. But even if it is correct, look at the number of children killed on both sides, look at the number of combatants killed on both sides. The palestinian militant organisations are not and official govt force which can be controlled while the IDF is.


Armed masked terrorists taking up firing positions surrounded by Palestinian boys and young men.

www . haaretz.co.il/hasite/images/printed/P120204/a.0.1202.20.2.9.jpg

This statement just shows how amazingly biased you are and how you are "holding back" information to try and support the point you are trying to make. Plus again, its from an israeli site. Lets take a look at Yahoo news article http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...palestinians_3 . A quote : "During the fighting, dozens of youths stood in the streets watching the battle as gunfire whizzed by. At one point, a gunman picked up a young schoolboy by his backpack and whisked him out of the battle zone. "
So please, dont try and give us crap biased information just to try and support your point. If you think that the majority of the palestinian public doesn't think of the militant groups as national heroes and patriots then you are very, very wrong.
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adelz
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#938
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#938
http://www.story.news.yahoo.com/news...palestinians_3
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adelz
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#939
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#939
foolfarian, how do you define "sovereign state"?
http: //hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/sovereign < theres your definition. Palestine was a sovereign state.

The U.N. gave them the barren half of the land. Mostly unsettled

Errr .. Im sorry but ... Israel have more land than palestine - when the land used to be ALL palestinian - the fact that they have even one centimetre of it is to their gain and palestinian loss. The partition plan should have been http://domino.un.org/unispal.nsf/cf02d057b04d356385256ddb006dc02f/3cbe4ee1ef30169085256b98006f540d/Body/0.7C!OpenElement&FieldElemFormat =gif and as you can see israel has way more land. a lot of the land they were given used to be palestinian towns, villages. From http://www.palestinemonitor.org/takp...tml#file2.html I highlight a few points:
Did you know that today's Israel sits on the former sites of more than 400 Palestinian villages that were destroyed and depopulated by Israel in 1948?
We often hear of Ehud Barak's generosity about an alleged return of 95% of the Palestinian Occupied Territories. When Palestinians refused, they were blamed or "missing an opportunity." Did you know that the Palestinians have already accepted Israel's existence on 78% of what was Palestine?
Did you know that Palestinian refugees make up the largest portion of the refugee population in the world?
I do realise this site is probably palestinian though the points in that article are all true.

For a history of the conflict which is unbiased go to http://www.un.org/Depts/dpa/ngo/history.html
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adelz
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#940
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#940
(Original post by Jonatan)
Well, you can hardly blame the Jews for migrating into palestine. I mean, it was either that or remaining in Europe which was occupied by teh nazis. These peopel did not simply go there cus they wanted social benefits or better work conditions, they fled because they had no choice. Britain and the US only accepted that many refugees during WW2 so most Jews still remaining in Europe culd choose between Jerusalem and Auschwitz. Not a very difficult choice to make if you ask me... Also, the Jews which emigrated before the outburst of WW2 did it for the very same reason. Antisemitism. Anstisemitism was increasing in Europe ( culminating in the holocoust during WW2) and as many Jews beleived that britain were going to declare a portion of Palestine a Jewish state they moved there.
Im sorry but because they were persecuted does not mean that they can migrate to another state and camp out there.In many countries such people would be classified as ILLEGAL immigrants. Cubans rowing to US are illegal immigrants. Iranians crossing the persian gulf to Dubai are illegal immigrants. Despite the conditions. Some ofcourse, are issued permits to live in the country they immigrate to but I dont think ANY country would accept millions of refugees. After world war 2 they could have gone back to their previous homes and started their lives again as did many other people affected by world war 2. Plus, why didnt they all just move to Norway ? Its closer than Palestine. I wonder what your opinion would be in that case - I understand that they were discriminated, they immigrated into Palestine and palestinians were fine with it for some time. But then jews started taking over palestinian land etc.etc. and there was an uprising as the jews were taking over the country ! And now the palestinians are the ones who are being persecuted by the jews. Please read http://www.un.org/Depts/dpa/ngo/history.html before replying.
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