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Babygal
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#981
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#981
What a load of rubbish, idiotic crap. its a shame she's only doing this for the first and last, otherwise i would've had alot of ass kicking to do
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thefish_uk
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#982
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#982
If the Jews wanted to flee the persecution in Europe, why did they have to go to Israel? Did they expect to have a claim to the land due to their ancient history?

Does anybody think that they should have been given an uninhabited area of wilderness in order to build their new settlement if they insisted on all living together?

I understand that the Jews deserved a place to escape the persecution - I hate all forms of racism or antisemitism, but I don't see why they would have a stronger claim to Israel over the Palestinians who lived there.
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MuniE
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#983
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#983
(Original post by thefish_uk)
If the Jews wanted to flee the persecution in Europe, why did they have to go to Israel? Did they expect to have a claim to the land due to their ancient history?

Does anybody think that they should have been given an uninhabited area of wilderness in order to build their new settlement if they insisted on all living together?

I understand that the Jews deserved a place to escape the persecution - I hate all forms of racism or antisemitism, but I don't see why they would have a stronger claim to Israel over the Palestinians who lived there.
Ya, I agree the only thing that going to Israel got them was suicide bombs and a wat against their neighbours...
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thefish_uk
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#984
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#984
(Original post by MuniE)
Ya, I agree the only thing that going to Israel got them was suicide bombs and a wat against their neighbours...
Yeah.

So is that something that all the people on here can agree on?

  1. The Jews deserved a place to live to escape persecution in Europe and the rest of the world.
  2. The Jews didn't have any more provable claim to the land than the Palestinians who lived there before them.


When you look at it like that it looks pretty simple.

Except when you bring in the Balfour Declaration, which leads some people to believe that the Jews did have a right to the land because the British Government had agreed to support the Zionist Jews.
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DoctorNO
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#985
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#985
(Original post by thefish_uk)
I understand that the Jews deserved a place to escape the persecution - I hate all forms of racism or antisemitism, but I don't see why they would have a stronger claim to Israel over the Palestinians who lived there.
What about EQUAL CLAIM?
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thefish_uk
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#986
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#986
(Original post by DoctorNO)
What about EQUAL CLAIM?
Hmmm?

Well, what's your point exactly?

That the Jews and Palestinians had equal claim or that they didn't?
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MuniE
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#987
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#987
(Original post by DoctorNO)
What about EQUAL CLAIM?
Even the U.N has declared zionism racism.... you can'y establish a homeland by taking others land
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ben2111
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#988
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#988
(Original post by DoctorNO)
What about EQUAL CLAIM?
I´m afraid that´s nonsens, doctor...
what do you mean with equal claim?`It has always been the rule that if somebody has land, it is his and nobody else´s, do you disagree?
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thefish_uk
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#989
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#989
(Original post by MuniE)
Even the U.N has declared zionism racism.... you can'y establish a homeland by taking others land
Personally, that's what I think:

The Jews deserved a homeland but didn't have a concrete claim for Israel.
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MuniE
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#990
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#990
(Original post by thefish_uk)
Personally, that's what I think:

The Jews deserved a homeland but didn't have a concrete claim for Israel.
ya.. going to Israel didnt help them escape persecution it just made more ppl hate them around the world
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DoctorNO
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#991
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#991
(Original post by ben2111)
I´m afraid that´s nonsens, doctor...
what do you mean with equal claim?`It has always been the rule that if somebody has land, it is his and nobody else´s, do you disagree?
Thats only one side of this complicated equation. For there is another rule, "stolen property is not legitimate property".

The Jews are the original owners of that land. How do you like being expelled from everything that you own and only have an opportunity to reclaim it after 40 years? and then be denied your rights simply because somebody else held your properties for far too long?
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DoctorNO
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#992
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#992
(Original post by MuniE)
Even the U.N has declared zionism racism.... you can'y establish a homeland by taking others land
Your answer is irrelevant to my point. FYI it was the U.N. who gave half the land to the jews.
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DoctorNO
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#993
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#993
(Original post by thefish_uk)
Personally, that's what I think:

The Jews deserved a homeland but didn't have a concrete claim for Israel.
Because theyve been away from it too long? Well then the way things go now it is the Palestinians who lost all concrete claims to the dominion of Israel for theyve been offlimits to it for far too long.
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DoctorNO
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#994
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#994
(Original post by MuniE)
ya.. going to Israel didnt help them escape persecution it just made more ppl hate them around the world
At least they no longer suffer actual physical persecutions. What would YOU prefer? Living as an outcast in another land, or living in your own land but hated by some people in another land?
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thefish_uk
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#995
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#995
(Original post by DoctorNO)
Because theyve been away from it too long? Well then the way things go now it is the Palestinians who lost all concrete claims to the dominion of Israel for theyve been offlimits to it for far too long.
Erm,

The problem is, and I've already said this before on this thread, is that you have to decide who the land belongs to...

The Palestinians that the Jews kicked out in the 1940s were nothing but descendants of the people that originally drove the Jews into exile. And the Jews that claimed Israel for themselves were the descendants of the ones originally driven into exile.

So, if you look at it like that the events around the declaration of Israel was one group of people kicking another group of people out of the land they'd lived in for at least a thousand years, claiming that they had a valid claim to the land.

The thing is that none of the stuff about how the Jews originally owned Israel is really relevant today. It doesn't directly relate to anybody still living. It's like a small Anglo-Saxon settlement that escaped to an island in 1066 coming back to England and claiming the country for themselves. No, it's like the escaped descendants of the people who ruled this country before the Romans took over (we looked at it at primary school but I forgot) coming back and expecting control. How ridiculous is that?

I have nothing against different religions having access to their holy sites in places such as Jerusalem. But what I do object to is the idea that a religious movement should try and take a country for themselves.
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DoctorNO
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#996
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#996
(Original post by thefish_uk)
The thing is that none of the stuff about how the Jews originally owned Israel is really relevant today. It doesn't directly relate to anybody still living.
Is it? If you found the stolen car that belonged to your dead father, you no longer have a claim on it?

(Original post by thefish_uk)
It's like a small Anglo-Saxon settlement that escaped to an island in 1066 coming back to England and claiming the country for themselves.

No, it's like the escaped descendants of the people who ruled this country before the Romans took over (we looked at it at primary school but I forgot) coming back and expecting control. How ridiculous is that?
That is a flawed analogy. For england had become a sovereign state. Also much of the citizens of england are of anglo-saxon decent. Palestine was not a sovereign state when the jews filed their claims. And Palestinians are mostly the decendants of Arabs from the surrounding region.



(Original post by thefish_uk)
I have nothing against different religions having access to their holy sites in places such as Jerusalem. But what I do object to is the idea that a religious movement should try and take a country for themselves.
You do impress me as a just and honest person, fish.

Being "Jew" is not just a religious movement. Its both a religion and a race. Its quite unique.
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thefish_uk
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#997
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#997
(Original post by DoctorNO)
Is it? If you found the stolen car that belonged to your dead father, you no longer have a claim on it?

That is a flawed analogy. For england had become a sovereign state. Also much of the citizens of england are of anglo-saxon decent. Palestine was not a sovereign state when the jews filed their claims. And Palestinians are mostly the decendants of Arabs from the surrounding region.

You do impress me as a just and honest person, fish.

Being "Jew" is not just a religious movement. Its both a religion and a race. Its quite unique.
Erm, good points there.

That's what confuses me about Judaism. Is it a religion or a race? Someone better decide, quickly. Looks to me like a race which it's possible to join.

I understand my flaw, sorry, it just came off the top of my head. Still, the situation is unique because of the way that religion is involved and is used as a point. Do you count the Jews' ancient claim as being historical or religious?
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thefish_uk
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#998
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#998
(Original post by DoctorNO)
You do impress me as a just and honest person, fish.
That's not sarcastic, is it?

I try to see the situation from both sides which gets some people annoyed. And depending how I think I seem to switch sides.

Sometimes I'll look at the situation now and think that the Palestinians are in the wrong because the attacks should stop and there should be a long enough ceasefire for a proper agreement to be reached, even though it'd take ages.

Other times I'll look at the past too and wonder just how valid the Jews' claim is and whether they were right to take the land in the first place, which might slightly dent the sympathy I have for them.

But I never support any violence that goes on today.
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adelz
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#999
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#999
(Original post by DoctorNO)
Because theyve been away from it too long? Well then the way things go now it is the Palestinians who lost all concrete claims to the dominion of Israel for theyve been offlimits to it for far too long.
The Jewish tribe were there millenia ago and the people of Israel have no physical affiliation with the land of Israel - it may exist in their holy book, in history books but nothing physical. The Palestinians on the other hand have lived there for thousands of years. The fathers, grandfathers, great grandfathers, great great grandfathers and so on of the current people of Palestine have lived there and worked there so they infact DO have concrete claims. There is a physical affiliation that the Palestinians can relate to.
Plus, as Ive said dozens of times before, the Palestinians don't want all the land back, everyone has accepted that the state of Israel must exist and cannot disappear. All they want is the return of land from pre1967, which is around 20% of the land that they owned before. I don't think that is too much, especially when you look at the population of both countries (There is a much larger population of Palestinians) AND as the country of Palestine will be split up into two separate islands which ... is very strange and ....
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adelz
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#1000
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#1000
(Original post by DoctorNO)
Is it? If you found the stolen car that belonged to your dead father, you no longer have a claim on it?
You seriously cannot be comparing a stolen car to the lives of millions of people. The Israelis inhabited the land for a couple of centuries 2 or 3 millenia ago. Since then it has been inhabited, owned, developed and worked on by the Palestinian people. They have been there for WAY longer than the Jewish people. The Jews cannot have a claim to Israel because accordinding to their holy book their ancestors lived there 2 or 3 thousand years ago.

(Original post by DoctorNO)
That is a flawed analogy. For england had become a sovereign state. Also much of the citizens of england are of anglo-saxon decent. Palestine was not a sovereign state when the jews filed their claims. And Palestinians are mostly the decendants of Arabs from the surrounding region.
Say Palestine was not a sovereign state. AS IVE SAID BEFORE that is ONLY because after the 1900's the British wanted to give the land to the jews and therefore did not create an independant palestinian state. The Jews cannot, just because the country was not governed by the Palestinians, 'file a claim' to move all people of their religion to their "promised homeland" because according to their book they lived there 3000 years ago. If your analogy is correct, then the descendants of Mesopotamians, Assyrians and Japhetic tribes would have a very concrete claim to Iraq currently as Iraq is currently not sovereign and they inhabited it once. Palestinians are descendants of Philistines and Arabs who inhabited the land millenia ago for 99% of history as we know it. Also, the Caanites were the first people there, not the hebrews - they were in Egypt, they conquered small areas of it and went there in the first place because "God told Abraham at Shechem that the land would belong to his descendants" - which is a load of religious crap.

(Original post by DoctorNO)
Being "Jew" is not just a religious movement. Its both a religion and a race. Its quite unique.
Jew - a person belonging to the worldwide group claiming descent from Jacob (or converted to it) and connected by cultural or religious ties
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