Israel Watch

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adelz
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#1141
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#1141
(Original post by gemgems89)
When we drove past it I don't mean I saw it from hundreds of miles away, it was in walking distance. My point is, I'm not saying there's no violence, I'm saying Israel isn't a danger zone, like most people think. People think that anyone goes is mad and brave because you will get blown up, but it's not like that at all. That's all I'm trying to say. I just want people to see both sides of the story, please.

Yes, jobs in Israel aren't very good either you know. You have to be very lucky to find a job in Israel, and even when you do, it's very bad pay.
Yes, people must see both sides, I agree.
But Israel is a rich, developed and prosperous country. Jobs arent badly paid - maybe in comparison to the UK they are. In Palestine 60% are unemployed and earn over a $ a day. That is, in comparison to Israel, HORRENDOUS and just TERRIBLE.
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gemgems89
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#1142
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#1142
(Original post by adelz)
Yes, people must see both sides, I agree.
But Israel is a rich, developed and prosperous country. Jobs arent badly paid - maybe in comparison to the UK they are. In Palestine 60% are unemployed and earn over a $ a day. That is, in comparison to Israel, HORRENDOUS and just TERRIBLE.
Well that's not Israel's fault.

I can't remember exactly, but someone said that people earn about £20 a week in Israel.
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thefish_uk
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#1143
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#1143
(Original post by gemgems89)
Well that's not Israel's fault.

I can't remember exactly, but someone said that people earn about £20 a week in Israel.
That fact is useless until you see what £20 can buy in Israel. It all has to be scaled up or down.
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thefish_uk
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#1144
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#1144
(Original post by adelz)
Yes, people must see both sides, I agree.
But Israel is a rich, developed and prosperous country. Jobs arent badly paid - maybe in comparison to the UK they are. In Palestine 60% are unemployed and earn over a $ a day. That is, in comparison to Israel, HORRENDOUS and just TERRIBLE.
Adel, are you going to tell people your big secret? The one you said "Don't tell the people on UKL"?

It might help people see why your point of view should be valued.
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thefish_uk
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#1145
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#1145
(Original post by gemgems89)
And my school trip was actually there!!! I didn't just see a picture on the tele, or some articles in the paper. I saw it myself!!!
As I asked, how did you identify the West Bank? Did you look a map and say "Hey that's the West Bank" or did someone point it out to you?

How long did you drive by it?
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Nafisa
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#1146
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#1146
(Original post by gemgems89)
And my school trip was actually there!!! I didn't just see a picture on the tele, or some articles in the paper. I saw it myself!!!
And the difference in seeing Israel by a tour guide on a school trip lets not forget with your very eyes what makes the images presented in the media pointless because after all you didnt see the pictures in the paper you saw it with your very own eyes. How does seeing it yourself, a small part of israel any different?
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thefish_uk
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#1147
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#1147
(Original post by Nafisa)
And the difference in seeing Israel by a tour guide on a school trip lets not forget with your very eyes what makes the images presented in the media pointless because after all you didnt see the pictures in the paper you saw it with your very own eyes. How does seeing it yourself, a small part of israel any different?
That's actually a good point. Something we learn in history at school is that primary sources are actually often extremely unreliable because they don't put things in context as well as something that's written carefully from seeing everything at once.
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gemgems89
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#1148
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#1148
(Original post by thefish_uk)
As I asked, how did you identify the West Bank? Did you look a map and say "Hey that's the West Bank" or did someone point it out to you?

How long did you drive by it?
They pointed it out to us. I didn't time it.
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thefish_uk
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#1149
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#1149
Gems,

A question relating to the possible reliability of information gathered on your trip:

Who arranged the trip? The itinerary and transport? Was it the school who did it entirely? Or was it organised by a private company? An Israeli tourism organisation? An Israeli government agency?
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gemgems89
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#1150
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#1150
(Original post by Nafisa)
And the difference in seeing Israel by a tour guide on a school trip lets not forget with your very eyes what makes the images presented in the media pointless because after all you didnt see the pictures in the paper you saw it with your very own eyes. How does seeing it yourself, a small part of israel any different?
I didn't see a "small part of Israel." We went right from the north to the south. And the answer is, by seeing it yourself, you can see both sides of the story and see that Israel is not a danger zone like you think it is. How many times do I have to repeat myself? I knew this would happen. I didn't post for a debate.
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gemgems89
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#1151
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#1151
(Original post by thefish_uk)
Gems,

A question relating to the possible reliability of information gathered on your trip:

Who arranged the trip? The itinerary and transport? Was it the school who did it entirely? Or was it organised by a private company? An Israeli tourism organisation? An Israeli government agency?
I really don't know. Why does that matter? :rolleyes:
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gemgems89
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#1152
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#1152
(Original post by thefish_uk)
Who's "they"? A teacher? Tour guide? Government rep?
Actually a fellow pupil.
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kildare
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#1153
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#1153
(Original post by gemgems89)
I didn't see a "small part of Israel." We went right from the north to the south. And the answer is, by seeing it yourself, you can see both sides of the story and see that Israel is not a danger zone like you think it is. How many times do I have to repeat myself? I knew this would happen. I didn't post for a debate.
No not really, you can only see things as they are for an infeasibly small amount of time, not nearly enough to get anything even approaching an accurate view of the reality of the situation. But yea, anyway.
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adelz
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#1154
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#1154
(Original post by gemgems89)
Well that's not Israel's fault.

I can't remember exactly, but someone said that people earn about £20 a week in Israel.
That is in NO WAY possible. NO way. That is going to be lower than the minimum wage, 100%.
Israel is a RICH country.
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adelz
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#1155
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#1155
(Original post by gemgems89)
I didn't see a "small part of Israel." We went right from the north to the south. And the answer is, by seeing it yourself, you can see both sides of the story and see that Israel is not a danger zone like you think it is. How many times do I have to repeat myself? I knew this would happen. I didn't post for a debate.
You cannot see both sides of the story. To see both sides you have to go to Gaza, to Palestine and you have to have stayed in both places for longer than a week in order to see the daily lives of people on both sides. I understand that you are trying to say Israel isnt a danger zone - okay it isnt, but that undermines their credibility as in the media they portray Israel as totally dangerous because of the Palestinian terrorists and they say that that is why Israel needs a land-grab wall, thats why it needs targeted killings, that why it needs checkpoints, thats why it needs settlements and thats why it has military in palestinian areas.
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thefish_uk
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#1156
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#1156
Sorry,

I'm just saying that if the Israeli authorities heard of a school trip from a Western country to Israel they'd see it as a huge chance to see things work in their favour, wouldn't they?

Especially people who are from a single-faith school. You're the people who are going to be fighting for Israel back home in this argument, they think. Some of you people might even be planning on making aliyah (moving to Israel - they even have a term for it).

So obviously, the Israeli authorities would want you to see Israel as being caring and safe and the opposite of what the Western media say. They know just how vunerable to this kind of propaganda children are and how easily they can be twisted to say what they want.

So there is a chance they would have planned it to give the image of Israel that they want you to see. Imagine you're writing an itinerary for some tourists coming to the UK, for example. Think of the different ways you could influence their thoughts of us by choosing what they get to see. You can easily manipulate what gets put in front of them to promote the image you want.

The fact that your visit was through school shows that an element of careful planning already went into it. The school can get their asses sued off if they bring you within a mile of anything dangerous. If there was any major element of risk the trip would have been stopped. And because trouble in Israel is localised rather than all over, this trouble can be avoided so you only go to safe places, so obviously you think it's safe.

Governments will go to great lengths to indoctrinate. I'm just asking you to see it from a point of view where you question what they put in front of you. Why was it put in front of you? What impression does it give of Israel? Don't you think that's the impression they'd be trying to promote?

I meant to write more but I've been distracted enough as it is.
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kildare
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#1157
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#1157
(Original post by gemgems89)
Well that's not Israel's fault.

I can't remember exactly, but someone said that people earn about £20 a week in Israel.
http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Education/stats1.html

Income ($, adjusted for inflation) (1 US$=4.5 NIS)

Average net income per household
1987 1995 2002
1,630 1,956 2,178

Average monthly wage
1987 1995 2002
1,142 1,304 1,462

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/eco_gdp_cap

GDP per Capita: Israel $20,233.75 per person


Someone told you wrong.
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thefish_uk
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#1158
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#1158
That's interesting. Probably very difficult to argue with, too. All I can come up with is that Gems might have been given information for a specific group or job, like she may have been taken to a very poor area with very low pay and told that.
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kildare
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#1159
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#1159
(Original post by thefish_uk)
That's interesting. Probably very difficult to argue with, too. All I can come up with is that Gems might have been given information for a specific group or job, like she may have been taken to a very poor area with very low pay and told that.
Erm no, Israel has minimum wage laws in place which are similar to those found in most parts of the developed world.
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thefish_uk
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#1160
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#1160
(Original post by kildare)
Erm no, Israel has minimum wage laws in place which are similar to those found in most parts of the developed world.
Sure.

I don't want to put her on the spot, but we'll see what Gems says about this.
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