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    agreed
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    I'm just wondering how the guy was meant to know whether she was unconcious or concious of her actions at the time.
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    (Original post by Kard)
    I'm just wondering how the guy was meant to know whether she was unconcious or concious of her actions at the time.

    come on, its not that difficult.
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    (Original post by El Scotto)

    come on, its not that difficult.
    The article says she was 'groaning', but then 'stopped when she knew what was happening'. Now IMO it's dubious to assume that a laymen would know that the groaning was conscious or unconscious, however I think what happened after she became aware of what was happennig is more important, ie. did he stop after she made it aware she regained consciouness and wanted to stop?
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    (Original post by Kard)
    The article says she was 'groaning', but then 'stopped when she knew what was happening'. Now IMO it's dubious to assume that a laymen would know that the groaning was conscious or unconscious, however I think what happened after she became aware of what was happennig is more important, ie. did he stop after she made it aware she regained consciouness and wanted to stop?

    Personally, when I'm having sex with girls they're awake knowing about it.
    'Laymen' should stop pulling stragglers then they'd know the difference.

    He should of stopped when she wasn't aware, let alone "after she made it aware she regained consciousness and wanted to stop"
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    (Original post by El Scotto)

    Personally, when I'm having sex with girls they're awake knowing about it.
    You should stop pulling stragglers then you'd know the difference.
    Too bad "I know therefore everyone else should too" doesn't hold up in this case, otherwise he would have been found guilty, and no I don't pull stagglers, I am just trying to look at the case objectively.

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    (Original post by morningtheft)
    Have you ever had sex with someone without knowing for sure if they were conscious or not?

    If there's any doubt in your mind that the person you're having sex with is conscious, you shouldn't be having sex with them...
    Again, subjective experience and reactionist emotional outrage should not cloud the objectivity of a court.
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    (Original post by Kard)
    Too bad "I know therefore everyone else should too" doesn't hold up in this case, otherwise he would have been found guilty, and no I don't pull stagglers, I am just trying to look at the case objectively.

    I had changed what I wrote to 'laymen' SHOULD know, I didnt intend it personally, she obviously had a crap lawyer and the judge trying to come back down to reality missed a couple of rungs on the ladder and had obviously been reading too much of the Daily mail and the Daily express, believing their witch-hunt rubbish about binge drinking.

    By law though I was sure that the onus was on the man to make sure consent was given.

    IF any person has any doubt the person they're having sex with is conscious or not, like mornintheft said they shouldnt be doing it.
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    (Original post by Kard)
    Again, subjective experience and reactionist emotional outrage should not cloud the objectivity of a court.
    Well put.

    The fact is the actual series of events appear confused, does she actually *know* she was unconscious? Because it is perfectly possible to be drunk and lose all memory of that time whilst not being unconscious.
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    (Original post by Kard)
    Too bad "I know therefore everyone else should too" doesn't hold up in this case, otherwise he would have been found guilty, and no I don't pull stagglers, I am just trying to look at the case objectively.

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    Again, subjective experience and reactionist emotional outrage should not cloud the objectivity of a court.
    I'm goning to be juvenile and do this: :eviltongu
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    (Original post by segat1)
    I'm goning to be juvenile and do this: :eviltongu
    So in effect you refuse to listen to the reasonable arguments of the other side just becuase of your emotionalist and unreflective arguements. Which are based of *your* subjective opinions and not the objective facts of the case in relation to what the law states. That is the very mentality that defines a kangaroo court.
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    (Original post by segat1)
    I'm goning to be juvenile and do this: :eviltongu
    You can go to the other thread and look at my opinions on how digusting rape is and the rest of it. However, here we are discussing a court case and not the subject of rape in general, and the fact is the allegation cannot be proved beyond reasonable doubt if events such as in this case throw doubt onto it.
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    this has happened to me before, and whoever says its her fault for being drunk is insensitive. A guy took advantage of me when i was very drunk before-ok i shouldn't have been drunk but i think my drink may have been spiked also-looking at how many drinks i actually did have. the worst of it is that I'm not the sort of person to sleep with anyone and was waiting for the right person etc-i feel this pr*ck has taken that away from me and even if i was drunk enough to be conscious i wouldn't have consented.It really makes me sick because guys don't see the problem with it-it's obvious when someone can't walk and can barely talk that they are drunk. It hurts like hell now one year on and has really affected me, the harshest thing of all is there were rumours around my school and still are now-that i slept with someone. It takes two to tango and as i was on the floor unconcious i didn't 'sleep' with anyone.These guys need to be taught a lesson.
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    Men should just learn to control themselves.
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    (Original post by smurfride)
    my drink may have been spiked also-looking at how many drinks i actually did have ... i was on the floor unconcious i didn't 'sleep' with anyone.
    Then your case was different:

    a) There was intoxication against your will which is criminal

    b) Then you were unconscious and therefore unable to give consent: therefore you were raped.

    The two circumstances are not analogous

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    (Original post by claireharmz)
    Men should just learn to control themselves.
    A fine moral sentiment, but we are dealing with issues of law not ethics here.
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    (Original post by smurfride)
    this has happened to me before, and whoever says its her fault for being drunk is insensitive. A guy took advantage of me when i was very drunk before-ok i shouldn't have been drunk but i think my drink may have been spiked also-looking at how many drinks i actually did have. the worst of it is that I'm not the sort of person to sleep with anyone and was waiting for the right person etc-i feel this pr*ck has taken that away from me and even if i was drunk enough to be conscious i wouldn't have consented.It really makes me sick because guys don't see the problem with it-it's obvious when someone can't walk and can barely talk that they are drunk. It hurts like hell now one year on and has really affected me, the harshest thing of all is there were rumours around my school and still are now-that i slept with someone. It takes two to tango and as i was on the floor unconcious i didn't 'sleep' with anyone.These guys need to be taught a lesson.


    were you the girl in the newspaper article? the details match?
    if so sorry. (sorry anyway)

    and to ferrus who said its perfectly possible to be drunk and not remember?
    Not it isnt, and if you're really that drunk you can't remember you're usually passed out. the date rape drugs make girls loose all memory as well, and you can tell when people have been spiked, I've seen friends like it before, they're in no state for anything except to be escorted home.

    To even suggest that having sex with someone so drunk they are barely conscious is acceptable is ludicrous!


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    (Original post by ferrus)
    Then your case was different:

    a) There was intoxication against your will which is criminal

    b) Then you were unconscious and therefore unable to give consent: therefore you were raped.

    ^thats exactly the same as the case in the paper!! yet you express a different opinion.
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    No one's drink was spiked in this case.
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    (Original post by El Scotto)

    and to ferrus who said its perfectly possible to be drunk and not remember?
    Not it isnt, and if you're really that drunk you can't remember you're usually passed out. the date rape drugs make girls loose all memory as well, and you can tell when people have been spiked, I've seen friends like it before, they're in no state for anything except to be escorted home.

    To even suggest that having sex with someone so drunk they are barely conscious is acceptable is ludicrous!
    I've sent text messages whilst so drunk that I had no recollection of sending them the next morning and other things.

    Im not saying that its accpetable to have sex with someone unconscious. That is sex with consent, it is criminal and should be punished. I am saying in the eyes of the law any decison you make whilst drunk is still your own so if you DO consent whilst drunk then you have only yourself to blame, the same applies to those who are convicted for rape whilst drunk.

    In this paritcular case she admits she has no recollection of what happened properly: if that is the case how can justice be served if there is no acuarrate proof of a crime?
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    (Original post by Kard)
    No one's drink was spiked in this case.

    How do you know? its rare to see a girl totally wasted who hasnt had her drink spiked. Most people who are spiked dont even know. and just put it down to drink.
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    (Original post by El Scotto)

    How do you know? its rare to see a girl totally wasted who hasnt had her drink spiked. Most people who are spiked dont even know. and just put it down to drink.
    then why didn't the prosecution bring it?
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    (Original post by El Scotto)

    How do you know? its rare to see a girl totally wasted who hasnt had her drink spiked. Most people who are spiked dont even know. and just put it down to drink.
    But where is the EVIDENCE! Its perfectly fine to throw random possiblities around but there must be proof if someone is to have thier liberty removed for thier actions.

    "The prosecution in the rape case had said it could not go on after the woman admitted that she could not remember whether she gave consent or not or whether sex had taken place"

    That is the crucial phrase here. If she specifically stated she had remembered that she had given NO consent then a case could be formed.
 
 
 
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