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Brits Concerned Over High Abortion Rates watch

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    No, approx 6.5m medical abortions have been carried out since 1967 in this country.
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    (Original post by LuverlyLawyer)
    No, approx 6.5m medical abortions have been carried out since 1967 in this country.
    S/he said this year, not since 1967.
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    Oh right yeah cos FORTY NINE MILLION abortions have been carried out this year have they :rolleyes:
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    (Original post by LuverlyLawyer)
    Oh right yeah cos FORTY NINE MILLION abortions have been carried out this year have they :rolleyes:
    I googled and this was the first link I found:

    There are approximately 46 million abortions conducted eacy year, 20 million of them obtained illegally.
    Looks like s/he wasn't too far off.
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    Oh my god that is phenomonal!!! What is the link? That makes me feel sick. How awful
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    well would you want 60 million unwanted children instead?
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    over 500 a day if the 200k figure or 1 every 3 minutes.

    thats horrendous.
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    I see many people treat a foetus as mere property as if it were rubbish yet many complain about the nature of a wedding when the father of the bride passes over her to the soon to be wedded husband.
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    (Original post by LuverlyLawyer)
    Oh my god that is phenomonal!!! What is the link? That makes me feel sick. How awful
    It was on about.com. I think I found it by searching for "worldwide abortion statistics" or something...
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    With the ammount of retards produced by parents too dumb to not get pregnant (i find it hard to belive 1/4 pregnancies is the result of split condoms or rape), is having less people really such a bad thing?
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    24 weeks is an insanely high limit. At that point the foetus is a human being, capable of suriviving outside of the womb. They way they kill these foetuses is disgusting. Look it up, and you find out that they are basically burned to death. Don't get me wrong, I am not against abortions, but I think there is a limit after twelve-eighteen weeks. Isn't it time we start thinking about the human rights of those who have none to speak for them? If we allow and condone the killing of a nearly-developed human being, is it any wonder that so many babies and children are abandoned, neglected and abused? Sorry, but this really does get my emotions going.
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    If we allow and condone the killing of a nearly-developed human being, is it any wonder that so many babies and children are abandoned, neglected and abused?
    Funny you should say that, when abortion decreases the number of children who are abandoned, neglected, and abused.
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    (Original post by morningtheft)
    Funny you should say that, when abortion decreases the number of children who are abandoned, neglected, and abused.
    I am sure that infanticide decreases the number of children who are abandoned, neglected and abused. Abortion is just another form of what you have mentioned above. Kill the child in the womb, instead of doing so after it comes out.

    Edit: Is it any wonder that countries with growing abortion rates (china and india) also have major problems with infanticide and abandoned children?
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    (Original post by SolInvincitus)
    I am sure that infanticide decreases the number of children who are abandoned, neglected and abused. Abortion is just another form of what you have mentioned above. Kill the child in the womb, instead of doing so after it comes out.
    The problem is the disagreement to when a feotus is considered human.
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    (Original post by Kard)
    The problem is the disagreement to when a feotus is considered human.
    Look at the information regarding a twenty week old foetus. It can survive outside of the womb with medical care, has a beating heart, developed brain and nervous system.... so on and so forth. Look at a few pictures and then decide on whether it is a human or not.

    Don't get me wrong, the point you raise is valid, but I am sure that anyone who is willing to use logic and reason could say that a foetus at this stage comes so close to being a human being, or is one, that it should have its rights protected.
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    (Original post by SolInvincitus)
    24 weeks is an insanely high limit. At that point the foetus is a human being, capable of suriviving outside of the womb. They way they kill these foetuses is disgusting. Look it up, and you find out that they are basically burned to death. Don't get me wrong, I am not against abortions, but I think there is a limit after twelve-eighteen weeks. Isn't it time we start thinking about the human rights of those who have none to speak for them? If we allow and condone the killing of a nearly-developed human being, is it any wonder that so many babies and children are abandoned, neglected and abused? Sorry, but this really does get my emotions going.
    Please cite your sources for your idea that there is a causal relationship between seeking an abortion and abondoning or abusing children.

    Additionally, a "nearly-developed human" is by that very definition, not human, so how can it be entitled to human rights? You may as well give human rights to chimpanzees.

    Of the 180 000 women in England and Wales who had terminations last year, fewer than 1% were carried out between 22 and 24 weeks, let alone after that period.

    And not only are partial birth abortions incredibly rare, the idea that abortion is routinely performed by burning a foetus to death is quite simply wrong and does not correspond to any commonly-used technique. In fact, I would go as far as to say that the notion that "they are basically burned to death" is either wilfully mistaken/misleading or an outright lie.

    A baby born at 24 weeks is till not a fully-formed human being (despite the kind of grotesquely magnified propaganda images someone else linked to), and if they survive at all, usually have severe brain damage and other developmental problems.

    And I must repeat that one of the most powerful arguments in favour of legalised abortion is that without it, abortion doesn't just stop - it forces desperate women to seek back-street abortions from non-medically-qualified quacks and/or to harm themselves in order to induce a miscarriage. As mentioned above, worldwide, 20,000,000 abortions are obtained in such an dangerous and illegal manner each year.

    I do agree, however, that 20 weeks should be the usual limit for medical abortion, unless the mother's life is at risk or there is a serious birth defect, which has only been recognised at a late stage. Although, of course, doctors need the freedom to make clinical decisions for each case individually, as is recognised by the courts.
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    (Original post by SolInvincitus)
    Look at the information regarding a twenty week old foetus. It can survive outside of the womb with medical care, has a beating heart, developed brain and nervous system.... so on and so forth. Look at a few pictures and then decide on whether it is a human or not.

    Don't get me wrong, the point you raise is valid, but I am sure that anyone who is willing to use logic and reason could say that a foetus at this stage comes so close to being a human being, or is one, that it should have its rights protected.
    A 20-week old foetus does not have fully-developed lungs and can only survive via heroic life-saving measures and advanced medical technology. Even with such help, a 20-week old foetus will have life-long health problems and a premature death.
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    (Original post by spk)
    Please cite your sources for your idea that there is a causal relationship between seeking an abortion and abondoning or abusing children.
    Read the reports on legislation in India to control Abortions, Infanticide and abandonement. They Government found a strong correlation between all three.
    Additionally, a "nearly-developed human" is by that very definition, not human, so how can it be entitled to human rights? You may as well give human rights to chimpanzees.
    My point was that can we prove beyond a reasonable doubt that a foetus in the late period of the second trimester is not human? It comes so close that there is a line of doubt that should make anyone think about the status of a developed foetus.

    Of the 180 000 women in England and Wales who had terminations last year, fewer than 1% were carried out between 22 and 24 weeks, let alone after that period.
    That is still 1800 foetuses a year. 1800 human beings being legally killed no small matter.

    And not only are partial birth abortions incredibly rare, the idea that abortion is routinely performed by burning a foetus to death is quite simply wrong and does not correspond to any commonly-used technique. In fact, I would go as far as to say that the notion that "they are basically burned to death" is either wilfully mistaken/misleading or an outright lie.
    You seem to be the one who is misinformed. Look it up, most late term abortions involve injecting the womb with a caustic solution of urea or salt. Look at a dead foetus and then tell me that it has not been burned to death. In addition, partial birth abortions, no matter how rare, are brutal and savage. Look it up and find out what is involved.

    A baby born at 24 weeks is till not a fully-formed human being (despite the kind of grotesquely magnified propaganda images someone else linked to), and if they survive at all, usually have severe brain damage and other developmental problems.
    When my mother was carrying me, she was told to abort me because it appeared I would be seriously underdeveloped. My mother refused to do this, and although I have had some chronic health problems in early childhood, through care and love I now live a fully normal life

    I do agree, however, that 20 weeks should be the usual limit for medical abortion, unless the mother's life is at risk or there is a serious birth defect, which has only been recognised at a late stage. Although, of course, doctors need the freedom to make clinical decisions for each case individually, as is recognised by the courts.
    At least we agree that the limit is too high. Thanks for the nice debate, seriously.

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    (Original post by spk)
    A 20-week old foetus does not have fully-developed lungs and can only survive via heroic life-saving measures and advanced medical technology. Even with such help, a 20-week old foetus will have life-long health problems and a premature death.
    But medical technology is advancing at such a rate that more and more of these extremely premature children are surviving and having a better quality of life.

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    (Original post by NDGAARONDI)
    I see many people treat a foetus as mere property as if it were rubbish yet many complain about the nature of a wedding when the father of the bride passes over her to the soon to be wedded husband.
    I agree completely.
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    (Original post by SolInvincitus)
    Read the reports on legislation in India to control Abortions, Infanticide and abandonement. They Government found a strong correlation between all three.
    So, if this relationship is true (and is not just due to confounding factors, such as cultural pressures to have male children), is it morally more or less acceptable to kill a baby once it has been born or to have an abortion?

    (Original post by SolInvincitus)
    My point was that can we prove beyond a reasonable doubt that a foetus in the late period of the second trimester is not human? It comes so close that there is a line of doubt that should make anyone think about the status of a developed foetus.
    That is partly why partial-birth abortion account for less that 1% of abortions.

    (Original post by SolInvincitus)
    That is still 1800 foetuses a year. 1800 human beings being legally killed no small matter.
    But in all cases the life of the mother was at risk or the foetus was diagnosed with a severe birth defect. 1800 aborted foetuses after 24 weeks, out of a population of 60 000 000 is really not a lot. If you are so concerned about preserving human life, it would be more worthwhile campaigning to ban car-ownership.

    (Original post by SolInvincitus)
    You seem to be the one who is misinformed. Look it up, most late term abortions involve injecting the womb with a caustic solution of urea or salt. Look at a dead foetus and then tell me that it has not been burned to death. In addition, partial birth abortions, no matter how rare, are brutal and savage. Look it up and find out what is involved.
    I know very well what is involved - to describe this method as "burning" is to use emotive, misleading language.

    (Original post by SolInvincitus)
    When my mother was carrying me, she was told to abort me because it appeared I would be seriously underdeveloped. My mother refused to do this, and although I have had some chronic health problems in early childhood, through care and love I now live a fully normal life
    Well, that really is the whole point, isn't it? Your mother was given the information and advice of the doctors and came to an informed decision, i.e. she has freedom of choice. So, this is very much a pro-choice argument.

    (Original post by SolInvincitus)
    At least we agree that the limit is too high. Thanks for the nice debate, seriously.
    My personal opinion is that social terminations should have a limit of 12 weeks, and 20 weeks for medical reasons (and no cut-off for life-endangering or severe birth abnormality that is diagnosed late).

    The law should strike a balance between shifting social mores and medical science - but at the moment it is at odds with both.

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    (Original post by SolInvincitus)
    But medical technology is advancing at such a rate that more and more of these extremely premature children are surviving and having a better quality of life.
    Which is why 24 weeks is too high. Unfortunately the Law moves at a snail's pace and is often extremely slow to respond to technological advances generally. This has also been a problem in fertility treatment, for example.

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    (Original post by NDGAARONDI)
    I see many people treat a foetus as mere property as if it were rubbish yet many complain about the nature of a wedding when the father of the bride passes over her to the soon to be wedded husband.
    Until quite a late-stage, the foetus is merely part of the woman's body, living a parasitic existence, much like a tumour. Just because half of its genetic component is non-self, it is still part of the woman's body, so it is only normal that the woman can treat it as she chooses. That is, until it is capable of living an independent life, the limit of which is currently at about 20 weeks.

    I must say that I don't quite get your wedding analogy? Is it something to do with the relative morality of the two quite separate situations?
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    (Original post by spk)


    But in all cases the life of the mother was at risk or the foetus was diagnosed with a severe birth defect.
    Not in this case!

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