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    You seem to think that a fetus of 20 weeks gestation has not survived outside of the womb when i have read of 1 case where it has.
    Provide a source then.

    think that no contraception is fool proof, yet I can assure you that the implanon.. which i have had twice, has had no reported pregnancies since it has been on the market for 5 or more years and millions use it.
    No contraception is foolproof. This is a fact. Not an opinion. It's not up for debate. The fact that you're even suggesting that there is a foolproof method of contraception (besides abstinance) is laughable.

    "No pregnancies yet" does not mean "no chance of pregnancy ever." That much should be obvious. Any time sperm enters your vagina you have a chance of getting pregnant. Unless you have no uterus and/or ovaries.

    And not every woman can use the implanon. There are hundreds of valid reasons why women would choose not to use implanon or other methods of hormonal birth control. And "but it works fine for me!!!" is not a valid rebuttal, so don't bother trying it.

    You have also stated that women do not need to worry themselves over whether they practice safe sex or not
    I have never stated any such thing, and I DARE you to quote where I have. The fact that you so eagerly tell blatant lies and put words into my mouth shows how "moral" some of you pro-lifers really are.

    My sister, 19 now had an abortion at 15 because my mother and father forced her too. She wanted that baby and now is literally mentally unstable. attempeted suicide several times...... thats another effect of abortions.
    The pro-choice movement is about giving people CHOICES, not forcing them into situations. Why are you directing that anecdote in an argument against me, someone who is pro-choice? You should probably be directing it towards someone who is anti-choice. Duh.

    That's not an effect of abortions. That's an effect of not being given control over your own body - which is what pro-lifers are suggesting should be done. If you don't like that your sister was not given a choice as to what to do with her pregnancy, you should not be suggesting that other people not be given choices. The hypocrisy in that is deeply troubling. Are you sure you're not pro-choice?
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    (Original post by squibalicious)
    And you have not read my posts properly.
    You seem to think that a fetus of 20 weeks gestation has not survived outside of the womb when i have read of 1 case where it has. You think that no contraception is fool proof, yet I can assure you that the implanon.. which i have had twice, has had no reported pregnancies since it has been on the market for 5 or more years and millions use it. You seem to think you are a know it all when i can promise you from the unresearched statements i have read from you have been absoloute crap.
    Please stop babbling and try to formulate your arguments rather more coherently. You write like a 12-year old.

    (Original post by squibalicious)
    You have also stated that women do not need to worry themselves over whether they practice safe sex or not, so basically your saying that its fair to not practise safe sex and then because it is so easily done, have an abortion each time and destroy her body as well as kill a fetus.
    If a women has practised safe sex, and an 'accident' occurs that i can to an extent understand, but if a women has been irresponsible because she cannot be bothered to use protection then why should that be fair?
    Fair to who? Would it be fair to force a woman to carry an unwanted foetus to term?

    (Original post by squibalicious)
    and too the last post. You are sounding to me like a 16 year girl who feels she knows it all.
    I cannot wait till you grow up and have children. then maybe you will understand more.
    You seem to be suggesting that all "mature" adults with children must necessarily be pro-life. Rubbish.

    (Original post by squibalicious)
    My sister, 19 now had an abortion at 15 because my mother and father forced her too. She wanted that baby and now is literally mentally unstable. attempeted suicide several times...... thats another effect of abortions.
    Children in the UK have the right to speak confidentially to doctors precisely to prevent this kind of nightmare scenario.
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    You seem to be suggesting that all "mature" adults with children must necessarily be pro-life. Rubbish.
    Wait til she pulls the "Your mum was pro-life - so you should be too!!!" card.

    ...to which I will reply that my mother will be very surprised to hear that.
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    I very much doubt a 12 year old would completely understand what I was talking about.
    And why on earth would I wish to bring in 'your parents' when that has nothing to do with this at all.
    SPK you are obviously going to stick up for a memebr who has been here longer but I really dont think, from morningthefts posts that she really understands for she has made a few comments that are complete rubbish and she had obviously not researced. I'm tired, i'm pregnant, I have a kid to contend and I find the fact women can kill such an amazing creation sickening.
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    I've not researched... and yet you refuse to provide a source for your claim that a 20 week old preemie has survived.

    You should probably alert Guinness World Records of their mistake. They'll probably be pleased to know that you know something they don't.

    I have a kid to contend
    What are you contending with him/her about? Good luck with that... I'm guessing they'll win though.
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    (Original post by squibalicious)
    I'm tired, i'm pregnant, I have a kid to contend and I find the fact women can kill such an amazing creation sickening.
    Okay. You're entitled to your opinion. Don't have an abrtion, if you don't want or need one. Why do you feel the need to force your opinion onto others?
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    I read it in a mother and baby magazine. It weighed 10 onces and was extremely lucky to have survived. Thats the only case I have heard of.
    And my son wont sleep thats all, nothing to drastic.

    'The second induced-labor abortion Mrs. Baker witnessed involved a 20 week-old fetus with spina bifida who was born alive. According to Mrs. Baker,

    during the time the fetus was alive, the patient kept asking me when the fetus would die. For an hour and 45 minutes the fetus maintained a heartbeat. The parents were frustrated, and obviously not prepared for this long period of time. Since I was the nurse of both the mother and the fetus, I held the fetus in my arms until it finally expired. 38'

    may not have been long but still and:

    'The third incident witnessed by Mrs. Baker involved a 16 week-old fetus with Down's Syndrome. `Again,' Mrs. Baker testified, `I walked into the soiled utility room and the fetus was fully exposed, lying on the baby scale.' 39

    Mrs. Baker then found the nurse who was caring for the mother and the baby and offered her assistance. `When I went back into the soiled utility room,' Mrs. Baker said, `the fetus was moving its arms and legs. I then listened for a heartbeat, and found that the fetus was still alive. I wrapped the fetus and in 45 minutes the fetus finally expired.' 40'

    http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/cpquer...&dbname=cp107&
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    http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/...recordid=48345

    128 days early. That's 21.7 weeks.

    (As a friendly warning, in formal debate saying "I read it in a magazine" doesn't count as a source. You need to provide exactly where you found it so the other person can find what you found.)
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    (Original post by spk)
    Why do you feel the need to force your opinion onto others?
    That's odd coming from you. :rolleyes:
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    21.7 = 22 weeks
    And also my opinion is not being forced. I apologise if that seems the case but why accuse me of typing like 12 year old?
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    Yes, we can round it up to 22 if you like...
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    (Original post by squibalicious)
    I read it in a mother and baby magazine. It weighed 10 onces and was extremely lucky to have survived. Thats the only case I have heard of.
    And my son wont sleep thats all, nothing to drastic.

    'The second induced-labor abortion Mrs. Baker witnessed involved a 20 week-old fetus with spina bifida who was born alive. According to Mrs. Baker,

    during the time the fetus was alive, the patient kept asking me when the fetus would die. For an hour and 45 minutes the fetus maintained a heartbeat. The parents were frustrated, and obviously not prepared for this long period of time. Since I was the nurse of both the mother and the fetus, I held the fetus in my arms until it finally expired. 38'

    may not have been long but still and:

    'The third incident witnessed by Mrs. Baker involved a 16 week-old fetus with Down's Syndrome. `Again,' Mrs. Baker testified, `I walked into the soiled utility room and the fetus was fully exposed, lying on the baby scale.' 39

    Mrs. Baker then found the nurse who was caring for the mother and the baby and offered her assistance. `When I went back into the soiled utility room,' Mrs. Baker said, `the fetus was moving its arms and legs. I then listened for a heartbeat, and found that the fetus was still alive. I wrapped the fetus and in 45 minutes the fetus finally expired.' 40'

    http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/cpquer...&dbname=cp107&
    That all seems like rather good evidence that such premature births are not compatible with life. The clues are in the phrases:

    "during the time the fetus was alive"

    "until it finally expired"

    "fetus finally expired"

    So, not really a good source to support your argument.
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    But really at 22 weeks of pregnancy it is 20 weeks in gestation according to docters. They are unsure of the first 2 weeks
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    So in order to prove that babies have survived at 20 weeks, you've posted two articles about babies that have died at 20 weeks?

    *tries to wrap head around it*
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    (Original post by Howard)
    That's odd coming from you. :rolleyes:
    How so? :rolleyes:

    I would never force a woman to have an abortion if she didn't want one, even if that meant a serious risk both to her life and the life of the foetus.

    Why should pro-lifers force their views onto others, rather than just accepting that they don't want abortions themseves under any circumstances?

    I'm an omnivore but I wouldn't force veggies to eat meat. Similarly, I wouldn't expect veggies to force me to stop consuming meat.

    Pro-choice libertarianism is absolutely about giving people choices and respecting their right to make their own decisions, not forcing them to do what you want.
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    http://www.maternitycorner.com/mcmag...ar/week22.html sorry was wrong..... its 19 weeks gestation
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    Yes, but 22 weeks is going by the standard of dating that all pregnancies go by. So if we're going to say this fetus was 19 weeks, then we'll have to use that standard for all pregnancies (thus the normal pregnancy length is 37 weeks instead of 40 weeks, and 43% of abortions are performed earlier than the 6th week, instead of the 9th.) and not just this one. So nothing changes at all.
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    (Original post by morningtheft)
    So in order to prove that babies have survived at 20 weeks, you've posted two articles about babies that have died at 20 weeks?

    *tries to wrap head around it*
    One was 16 weeks gestation. READ!!
    I was merely staing a point..... yes they died but it shows that they can survive.
    Can you imagine having an abortion and then spending 1 hour with your baby watching it die??
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    Survival does not mean living for one hour and then dying. It doesn't show they can survive. It shows they can and do die.

    Survival rates for preemies are determined by how many survive for at least 28 days. Which isn't much at all. How on earth is living for an hour "surviving"?

    Can you imagine having an abortion and then spending 1 hour with your baby watching it die??
    Uh, what?!?? If you got an abortion, you wouldn't be spending an hour with your baby. That's what happens when you DON'T get an abortion (in this scenario). That doesn't make any sense. Abortion PREVENTS you from having to spend an hour with your baby.

    Are you seriously saying that abortion is bad because a 16-20 week old fetus has a miniscule chance of surviving for an hour after birth, and we shouldn't deny the baby that precious one hour of life?
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    (Original post by morningtheft)
    Yes, but 22 weeks is going by the standard of dating that all pregnancies go by. So if we're going to say this fetus was 19 weeks, then we'll have to use that standard for all pregnancies (thus the normal pregnancy length is 37 weeks instead of 40 weeks, and 43% of abortions are performed earlier than the 6th week, instead of the 9th.) and not just this one. So nothing changes at all.
    A baby is ready to be born from 37 weeks gestation. I am currently 36 weeks gestation. And yes maybe from your point of view nothing changes and you obviously seem to not have a heart to understand. When you have children i'm sure your opinion may differ.
 
 
 
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