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Oxbridge is outdated
Hi, I'm an a level student in my college's debating society. I have to argue the proposition that 'Oxbridge is outdated'. Could anyone give me information that would support this proposition?
By the way, from what I've read this is on the whole untrue, however for the sake of winning the debate, could people stick to arguments for rather than against. Any help would be much appreciated.
By the way, from what I've read this is on the whole untrue, however for the sake of winning the debate, could people stick to arguments for rather than against. Any help would be much appreciated.
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We goto an institution where they think adults need bedders to come into their room daily, empty our bins, make our beds, vacuum our floors and wipe our bums. One of those might not be true. Anyway, we goto an institution where the senior authorities still walk around with butter measuring devices, where gowns must still be worn at governing body, where continuous assessment is heretical thinking. And don't let anybody tell you Cambridge is just a factory for investment bankers, it's actually an academic safehaven compared to the commercially oriented London universities.
you could look into the finals gap? (men score better than woman on average) & see whether this is a nationwide wide phenomemon or worse at oxbridge.
or you could look into admissions demographics & see whether the student body is 'outdated'?
- there have been recent articles on both in the student literature - google for 'Ox Stu' or 'Cherwell' papers should find you their online versions.. hope this helps.
or you could look into admissions demographics & see whether the student body is 'outdated'?
- there have been recent articles on both in the student literature - google for 'Ox Stu' or 'Cherwell' papers should find you their online versions.. hope this helps.
Maybe comment on the way in which league tables show that, while Oxbridge is often top overall, other institutions are better for individual subjects. Point out that the idea of a gap in quality of education between Oxbridge and everywhere else is outdated; then argue that most of the overall reputation of Oxbridge stems from that idea of an intellectual élite.
Examination dress code.
Maybe look at the very subjects that Oxbridge offers...one could argue that it is, to an extent, 'outdated' as it tends to offer accepted 'academic' subjects rather than 'cutting edge', new ones eg sports science or something.....maybe also look at Joint Honours, which are ever-increasing in popularity; Cambridge offers no way to study two distinct subjects at once, and although Oxford does, there are fewer joint honours options than at other universities.
tom391
Cambridge offers no way to study two distinct subjects at once, and although Oxford does, there are fewer joint honours options than at other universities.
Natural Sciences Tripos physics, chemistry, biology, geology, psychology, philosophy of science
SPS Tripos sociology, politics, anthropoloy, psychology
Arch/Ant Tripos - Anthropology (social and biological) archaeology
Maybe run it thus:
Oxbridge is at present a publicly funded university.
It'd be better to operate it privately - students would pay American style funds. This would give it more money to compete globally in science and research. Oxbridge would have to start catering to students' demands or they wouldn't pay to go there, thus bringing it inline with more "modern" desires. Private money would also relieve the massive deficit both unis are running.
In addition, the current system is outdated because it encourages overconsumption, because students don't have to pay to go there (thus using up their own resources): if put into private hands, supply could be brought into line with demand and Oxbridge could join the modern market economy in which we live.
If students were paying, they'd teach relevant courses that were in demand. This means MORE places for popular subjects like law and medicine and LESS for unpopular ones like NatSci and Music. Students would get taught real world skills that would prepare them for high flying, high earning careers.
Education is not a public good. It is outdated to think it is. This is because the individual benefits enormously, in the form of better jobs and such. Privatisation would make the system fairer; individuals would buy an education as an investment for the future. Markets would handle the question of who should go to university rationally and they are indifferent to class, race and gender because the profit motive subsumes everything else.
Basic economics dictates that to pay for a future benefit or investment money must be BORROWED because people in the future will benefit so they should be the ones to pay the money back. This principle should be applied to students at Oxbridge too. Why should poor, working class families be taxed to pay for me Cambridge degree when I am the one who'll benefit the most? I should borrow the money and offset it against future earnings.
Being a profit motivated institution would create an incentive to be efficient. People who do nothing useful or who aren;t needed (bedders for example) would be sacked. This is how any modern business should operate
Had to type that quickly as am in a hurry to go and watch Little Britain but hope it gives you some ideas.
M
Oxbridge is at present a publicly funded university.
It'd be better to operate it privately - students would pay American style funds. This would give it more money to compete globally in science and research. Oxbridge would have to start catering to students' demands or they wouldn't pay to go there, thus bringing it inline with more "modern" desires. Private money would also relieve the massive deficit both unis are running.
In addition, the current system is outdated because it encourages overconsumption, because students don't have to pay to go there (thus using up their own resources): if put into private hands, supply could be brought into line with demand and Oxbridge could join the modern market economy in which we live.
If students were paying, they'd teach relevant courses that were in demand. This means MORE places for popular subjects like law and medicine and LESS for unpopular ones like NatSci and Music. Students would get taught real world skills that would prepare them for high flying, high earning careers.
Education is not a public good. It is outdated to think it is. This is because the individual benefits enormously, in the form of better jobs and such. Privatisation would make the system fairer; individuals would buy an education as an investment for the future. Markets would handle the question of who should go to university rationally and they are indifferent to class, race and gender because the profit motive subsumes everything else.
Basic economics dictates that to pay for a future benefit or investment money must be BORROWED because people in the future will benefit so they should be the ones to pay the money back. This principle should be applied to students at Oxbridge too. Why should poor, working class families be taxed to pay for me Cambridge degree when I am the one who'll benefit the most? I should borrow the money and offset it against future earnings.
Being a profit motivated institution would create an incentive to be efficient. People who do nothing useful or who aren;t needed (bedders for example) would be sacked. This is how any modern business should operate
Had to type that quickly as am in a hurry to go and watch Little Britain but hope it gives you some ideas.
M
Mib
Maybe run it thus:
Being a profit motivated institution would create an incentive to be efficient. People who do nothing useful or who aren;t needed (bedders for example) would be sacked. This is how any modern business should operate
M
Being a profit motivated institution would create an incentive to be efficient. People who do nothing useful or who aren;t needed (bedders for example) would be sacked. This is how any modern business should operate
M
But we pay for bedders in our accomodation costs
you have a slightly confused view of microeconomics Mib :P
I quote from the marvellous Neoplitan:
"A day in the life of an Oxford don:-
I am awakened by my cat Apollonius jumping onto the bed. His loyal purring warms my breast until I recall that women have the vote. I struggle out of bed, and stumble down to the college hall where I order my traditional English breakfast in traditional Latin. I decide not to make an issue of the fact that my ova are scrambled because the boy serving has yet to master the past participle.
Gloomily I leave the hall and head for Blackwell's but forget what book it was I was looking for and am annoyed to find no member of staff who can tell me - even at the Information Desk! I ask directions to my department but only seem to be able to run into Oriental tourists, who prove unhelpful, no matter how loudly I shout at them. I make it into the department by coffee time. There is a note on my door from a graduate of mine (I think) who wonders where I was at ten. I ask my secretary to print off my emails for me, and spend the remainder of the morning wondering at the etymology of "viagra".
I make it into lunch which is pheasant - again! - and ponder what is happening to food in the college. I leave hall again, but miss my first tutorial as it is overcast and my sundial isn't working. In my second tutorial, the tyke, whose name I forget, has completed the sheet. He is rather smart for the progeny of chimney-sweeps and will no doubt get a first in spite of my best efforts. Darling Imogen, with whom he is paired, giggles delightfully throughout the whole hour. She smiles so sweetly I decide to ignore her more fundamental misunderstandings of basic material and give her an alpha minus.
Dinner at least is uneventful, and merited after such a long day's work. Though I am disappointed to hear that the butler has been granted time off to visit his ailing father. I had thought that Thatcher had broken the power of the unions way back! Instead his son buttles - a poor show as he needs to be reminded to put out the snuff, and can only find two varieties.
Exhausted, I head back to my room and slump comatose into my favourite armchair. My sleep untroubled in the certitude that I will put tomorrow to the same exemplary use."
enough said!!
"A day in the life of an Oxford don:-
I am awakened by my cat Apollonius jumping onto the bed. His loyal purring warms my breast until I recall that women have the vote. I struggle out of bed, and stumble down to the college hall where I order my traditional English breakfast in traditional Latin. I decide not to make an issue of the fact that my ova are scrambled because the boy serving has yet to master the past participle.
Gloomily I leave the hall and head for Blackwell's but forget what book it was I was looking for and am annoyed to find no member of staff who can tell me - even at the Information Desk! I ask directions to my department but only seem to be able to run into Oriental tourists, who prove unhelpful, no matter how loudly I shout at them. I make it into the department by coffee time. There is a note on my door from a graduate of mine (I think) who wonders where I was at ten. I ask my secretary to print off my emails for me, and spend the remainder of the morning wondering at the etymology of "viagra".
I make it into lunch which is pheasant - again! - and ponder what is happening to food in the college. I leave hall again, but miss my first tutorial as it is overcast and my sundial isn't working. In my second tutorial, the tyke, whose name I forget, has completed the sheet. He is rather smart for the progeny of chimney-sweeps and will no doubt get a first in spite of my best efforts. Darling Imogen, with whom he is paired, giggles delightfully throughout the whole hour. She smiles so sweetly I decide to ignore her more fundamental misunderstandings of basic material and give her an alpha minus.
Dinner at least is uneventful, and merited after such a long day's work. Though I am disappointed to hear that the butler has been granted time off to visit his ailing father. I had thought that Thatcher had broken the power of the unions way back! Instead his son buttles - a poor show as he needs to be reminded to put out the snuff, and can only find two varieties.
Exhausted, I head back to my room and slump comatose into my favourite armchair. My sleep untroubled in the certitude that I will put tomorrow to the same exemplary use."
enough said!!
It wasn't REAL though 
rich_
I quote from the marvellous Neoplitan:
"I am awakened by my cat Apollonius jumping onto the bed. His loyal purring warms my breast until I recall that women have the vote. I struggle out of bed, and stumble down to the college hall where I order my traditional English breakfast in traditional Latin. I decide not to make an issue of the fact that my ova are scrambled because the boy serving has yet to master the past participle.
Gloomily I leave the hall and head for Blackwell's but forget what book it was I was looking for and am annoyed to find no member of staff who can tell me - even at the Information Desk! I ask directions to my department but only seem to be able to run into Oriental tourists, who prove unhelpful, no matter how loudly I shout at them. I make it into the department by coffee time. There is a note on my door from a graduate of mine (I think) who wonders where I was at ten. I ask my secretary to print off my emails for me, and spend the remainder of the morning wondering at the etymology of "viagra".
I make it into lunch which is pheasant - again! - and ponder what is happening to food in the college. I leave hall again, but miss my first tutorial as it is overcast and my sundial isn't working. In my second tutorial, the tyke, whose name I forget, has completed the sheet. He is rather smart for the progeny of chimney-sweeps and will no doubt get a first in spite of my best efforts. Darling Imogen, with whom he is paired, giggles delightfully throughout the whole hour. She smiles so sweetly I decide to ignore her more fundamental misunderstandings of basic material and give her an alpha minus.
Dinner at least is uneventful, and merited after such a long day's work. Though I am disappointed to hear that the butler has been granted time off to visit his ailing father. I had thought that Thatcher had broken the power of the unions way back! Instead his son buttles - a poor show as he needs to be reminded to put out the snuff, and can only find two varieties.
Exhausted, I head back to my room and slump comatose into my favourite armchair. My sleep untroubled in the certitude that I will put tomorrow to the same exemplary use."
"I am awakened by my cat Apollonius jumping onto the bed. His loyal purring warms my breast until I recall that women have the vote. I struggle out of bed, and stumble down to the college hall where I order my traditional English breakfast in traditional Latin. I decide not to make an issue of the fact that my ova are scrambled because the boy serving has yet to master the past participle.
Gloomily I leave the hall and head for Blackwell's but forget what book it was I was looking for and am annoyed to find no member of staff who can tell me - even at the Information Desk! I ask directions to my department but only seem to be able to run into Oriental tourists, who prove unhelpful, no matter how loudly I shout at them. I make it into the department by coffee time. There is a note on my door from a graduate of mine (I think) who wonders where I was at ten. I ask my secretary to print off my emails for me, and spend the remainder of the morning wondering at the etymology of "viagra".
I make it into lunch which is pheasant - again! - and ponder what is happening to food in the college. I leave hall again, but miss my first tutorial as it is overcast and my sundial isn't working. In my second tutorial, the tyke, whose name I forget, has completed the sheet. He is rather smart for the progeny of chimney-sweeps and will no doubt get a first in spite of my best efforts. Darling Imogen, with whom he is paired, giggles delightfully throughout the whole hour. She smiles so sweetly I decide to ignore her more fundamental misunderstandings of basic material and give her an alpha minus.
Dinner at least is uneventful, and merited after such a long day's work. Though I am disappointed to hear that the butler has been granted time off to visit his ailing father. I had thought that Thatcher had broken the power of the unions way back! Instead his son buttles - a poor show as he needs to be reminded to put out the snuff, and can only find two varieties.
Exhausted, I head back to my room and slump comatose into my favourite armchair. My sleep untroubled in the certitude that I will put tomorrow to the same exemplary use."
Genius of the first water.
Elles
you could look into the finals gap? (men score better than woman on average) & see whether this is a nationwide wide phenomemon or worse at oxbridge.
or you could look into admissions demographics & see whether the student body is 'outdated'?
- there have been recent articles on both in the student literature - google for 'Ox Stu' or 'Cherwell' papers should find you their online versions.. hope this helps.
or you could look into admissions demographics & see whether the student body is 'outdated'?
- there have been recent articles on both in the student literature - google for 'Ox Stu' or 'Cherwell' papers should find you their online versions.. hope this helps.
is that the definition of mdern/up to date -exams/grading deliberately orientated to suit women?
anycon
Does the finals gap exist for 2:1s as well as firsts?
The finals gap means lots of women get 2:1s whereas more men tend to either get firsts or thirds, i.e. one of two extremes.
Mib
If students were paying, they'd teach relevant courses that were in demand. This means MORE places for popular subjects like law and medicine and LESS for unpopular ones like NatSci and Music. Students would get taught real world skills that would prepare them for high flying, high earning careers.
Education is not a public good. It is outdated to think it is. This is because the individual benefits enormously, in the form of better jobs and such. Privatisation would make the system fairer; individuals would buy an education as an investment for the future. Markets would handle the question of who should go to university rationally and they are indifferent to class, race and gender because the profit motive subsumes everything else.
M
Education is not a public good. It is outdated to think it is. This is because the individual benefits enormously, in the form of better jobs and such. Privatisation would make the system fairer; individuals would buy an education as an investment for the future. Markets would handle the question of who should go to university rationally and they are indifferent to class, race and gender because the profit motive subsumes everything else.
M
ok, so firstly it wouldn't mean more med places - that is nationally limited (don't ask me why, it's crazy but that's the way it is). Cambridge are given a number and they cannot give out more med places than that.
Secondly, if everyone chooses courses to help them into 'high flying, high earning careers' (and god forbid they might wish to study music/classics/art history for the love of the subject) there would be far too many people quailfied and competing for the jobs available. The value of the degree would surely decrease.
Thirdly - the point of university academic courses isn't real world skills. That's why law students are NOT qualified after the BA! And why MBAs in business exist...
Fourthly, 'education is not a public good'. Just repeat that to yourself and try and tell me that you really believe it. Surely you are more intelligent than that.
"Privatisation would make the system fairer; individuals would buy an education" Fairer??? Do you think that education only for tjose who can afford it is fair?? American universities have huge amounts of financial aid and it STILL isn't as fair as here. Not to mention legacy admissions...
"Markets would handle the question of who should go to university rationally and they are indifferent to class, race and gender because the profit motive subsumes everything else." Good grief, you think that is a good thing? The profit motive cannot be indifferent to class as class is largely tied to income, as is race a lot of the time. And is that rational?? Because profit motivation does not take intelligence into account and would therefore be entirely unrational and unsustainable.
I really hope that you just wrote rubbish because you were in a rush for the TV!
Navindu
is that the definition of mdern/up to date -exams/grading deliberately orientated to suit women?
i didn't make such a definition, nor is it my debate - twas just a suggestion for a research area.
if the oxbridge finals gap significantly differs to other universities then i think that might be grounds for arguing it 'outdated'.
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