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    (Original post by yawn)
    I don't want to waste time by trawling through all the posts you have made to bring up your original post that you say was deliberately sarcastic.

    To do so would just be childish.

    Suffice to say, imo you have changed 'tack' to save face! I am still giving you the opportunity of a way out - do you want to take it or do I need to go back to your original post?
    Changed tack? Save face? Save face about what? I made a joke, you misinterpreted, I've spent three or four posts trying to point this out. What tack am I changing, and what face am I trying to save? I'll quite happily bring up my original post to show the sarcasm.

    "Agnostic, and pro-abortion. (SARCASM STARS NOW. HERE BE SARCASM, YO!) Not pro-choice, pro-abortion. 1 in 3 should be terminated, chosen by lottery.(HERE ENDS THE SARCASM!)

    (I am not serious, for the hard of thinking.) <--THIS IS A HANDY HINT, FOR THOSE WHO MISSED THE ORIGINAL SARCASM."
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    (Original post by Chrism)
    He actually wrote in brackets that he wasn't being serious. Did that not give it away?
    I think it's a hopeless cause trying to explain that the words "I am not serious" mean, quite literally, that he is not serious...
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    (Original post by morningtheft)
    But pro-life people ARE anti-abortion, in the vast majority of cases. They think abortion is a bad thing, do they not? And they don't think people should be able to get them. Therefore, anti-abortion.
    You said earlier that "Someone might think abortion is morally horrendous but still be pro-choice" But doesn't that mean they are "anti-abortion"? If someone who is pro-choice is anti-abortion then there shouldn't be the addition of anti-abortion, to those who are pro-life, in the poll.

    I'm pro-life but I'm not anti-abortion in all cases. In cases of rape there is definitely a moral argument to give the option of abortion.

    (Original post by morningtheft)
    Someone who is pro-choice MAY be pro-abortion but they may not be. They may disagree entirely with abortion. The only thing characteristic to all pro-choicers is that they think abortion should be a choice, whether or not they agree with that particular choice.
    Surely if someone allows the capacity for a choice, they must accept that it will be taken at some point. I don't understand why you would give someone a choice you disagree with. Surely if you think something is morally wrong, but allow it to happen, you have some kind of moral responsibility. It also means your morals are superficial.
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    I don't understand why you would give someone a choice you disagree with.
    Uhhhh.. why not?

    Let's say for example that I don't personally agree with one night stands.

    Does that mean I want to make having a one night stand illegal? Of course not... it would be absolutely ludicrous if I did.

    Surely if someone allows the capacity for a choice, they must accept that it will be taken at some point.
    Errrr, accepting that it'll happen is different from agreeing with it.

    You certainly can allow someone capacity for a choice without agreeing with their choice. I might offer someone either gingerbread cookies or popcorn. Perhaps I hate popcorn and personally would choose the gingerbread cookies. But I am still giving them the choice. If they choose popcorn, I might strongly disagree with that choice... but I would still be supporting their right to make that choice.

    Pro-choice means you support a woman's right to choose what's best for HER, not what's best for you. Even if you don't agree with the choice she makes. Even if it's not the choice you would make. Even if you think she made the wrong choice. Even if you think she made a terrible mistake and will regret it forever. It's about supporting her right to MAKE that choice. Not about whether you think her choice is the right one.
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    My main reason for posting in this thread was the "(anti-abortion)" part of the poll:

    (Original post by John82)
    You said earlier that "Someone might think abortion is morally horrendous but still be pro-choice" But doesn't that mean they are "anti-abortion"? If someone who is pro-choice is anti-abortion then there shouldn't be the addition of anti-abortion, to those who are pro-life, in the poll.
    We've kind of drifted, but

    Let's say for example that I don't personally agree with one night stands.

    Does that mean I want to make having a one night stand illegal? Of course not... it would be absolutely ludicrous if I did.
    I suppose it just means your level of disagreement is very low. If you thought one night stands were fundamentally wrong, you might be more actively opposed. Some people disagreed with the war in Iraq. Many marched against it, many voted differently as a result of it, some idiot (George Galloway) even got elected to parliament, but many people did nothing. Now I'm drifting...

    As I said "I don't understand why you would give someone a choice you disagree with". Would you approach a man your friend fancied and give him the choice "My friend fancys you, do you want to spend tonight with her?" Or would you tell your friend you disagreed with one night stands and so she would have to ask herself.

    (Original post by morningtheft)

    Errrr, accepting that it'll happen is different from agreeing with it.

    You certainly can allow someone capacity for a choice without agreeing with their choice. I might offer someone either gingerbread cookies or popcorn. Perhaps I hate popcorn and personally would choose the gingerbread cookies. But I am still giving them the choice. If they choose popcorn, I might strongly disagree with that choice... but I would still be supporting their right to make that choice.
    The point is that you have no objection to them choosing the popcorn, so logically you believe eating popcorn is not a wrong thing to do. If you thought the popcorn was poisoned (i.e. wrong to eat), then presumeably you wouldn't offer it. Unless you would offer the choice of gingerbread cookies or poisoned popcorn? But that makes no sense! I'll have the cookies please

    Pro-choice means you support a woman's right to choose what's best for HER, not what's best for you. Even if you don't agree with the choice she makes. Even if it's not the choice you would make. Even if you think she made the wrong choice. Even if you think she made a terrible mistake and will regret it forever. It's about supporting her right to MAKE that choice. Not about whether you think her choice is the right one.
    I have nothing against choice, in fact I'm extremely libertarian, but I believe the choice in this issue exists before pregnancy. Pregnancy is a consequence of sex, and if a woman doesn't want to become pregnant then she should choose to not have sex (especially if it's a one night stand, right?!), or to use contraception.

    My argument is that the choice whether or not to have an abortion shouldn't exist. Therefore I think it's wrong. In cases of rape it can be justified, i.e. no choice existed. I also think there cases for abortion based on medical grounds. However, that is more euthanasia than abortion.
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    As I said "I don't understand why you would give someone a choice you disagree with". Would you approach a man your friend fancied and give him the choice "My friend fancys you, do you want to spend tonight with her?" Or would you tell your friend you disagreed with one night stands and so she would have to ask herself.
    But pro-choice people don't walk up to random pregnant women and literally offer them the choice of abortion. They just think the choice should be legal. Just like in my hypothetical example, I would think the choice to have a one night stand should be legal.

    Pregnancy is a consequence of sex, and if a woman doesn't want to become pregnant then she should choose to not have sex (especially if it's a one night stand, right?!), or to use contraception.
    Pregnancy is a consequence of sex. Childbirth isn't, unless you choose for it to be.

    Over 50% of women who get abortions used contraception during the month they became pregnant.

    (I'm not really against one night stands, it was just an example)
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    (Original post by spk)
    So you're conditionally pro-choice. Or at the very least, undecided.
    I'm definitely pro-life, although that is based on the assumption that it is the alternative to pro-choice.

    (Original post by spk)
    Pro-life is anti-abortion. It is usually also against embryonic stem cell research, human cloning and euthanasia in all circumstances.
    I don't know that it is. I'm sure that even the most hardline pro-life person wouldn't be against an abortion if the mother would die otherwise. I'm sure many would support abortion in cases of rape too.

    My opposition to abortion is that the choice shouldn't exist. The choice should occur before pregnancy takes place, i.e. contraception.
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    (Original post by morningtheft)
    What if she did?
    I highly doubt that other than the baby being incapable of surviving outside the womb that a mother who wished to conceive would have an abortion. That was a bit of a silly question.
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    (Original post by squibalicious)
    I highly doubt that other than the baby being incapable of surviving outside the womb that a mother who wished to conceive would have an abortion. That was a bit of a silly question.
    Why would a woman using protection "wish to conceive"?

    Your reply is completely non sequitor to the post of mine that you're quoting. I have no idea what point you're trying to make. Maybe you meant to quote another post.
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    (Original post by morningtheft)
    It's okay if you didn't understand the sarcasm.

    If you didn't understand the "(I am not serious, for the hard of thinking.)" immediately following it, then you are a lost cause. It's right there... in black and white. There is no excuse for not understanding it.
    It's funny because it's true.
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    (Original post by squibalicious)
    If a girl does not want to become pregnant she should have been sensible and used protection.
    This is a quote you took
    (Original post by morningtheft)
    What if she did?
    This was your response
    (Original post by squibalicious)
    I highly doubt that other than the baby being incapable of surviving outside the womb that a mother who wished to conceive would have an abortion. That was a bit of a silly question.
    then i replied with that... does it make more sense to you now?
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    (Original post by John82)
    My opposition to abortion is that the choice shouldn't exist. The choice should occur before pregnancy takes place, i.e. contraception.
    I think you mean "i.e. abstinence", since that is the only infallible way to avoid pregnancy - unless you catch it from a toilet seat.
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    Hahaha, Ferret gets pos rep for making me laugh. Yawn, sort it out son!
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    (Original post by squibalicious)
    This is a quote you took

    This was your response


    then i replied with that... does it make more sense to you now?
    No, you're confused.

    The other poster obviously meant, "What if she had used contraception?" Not, "What if she had wanted to conceive?"
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    Then if that is the case it is unfortunate. And although i really do not agree with abortions if the women tried to be as 'safe' as possible then i can understand.
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    (Original post by morningtheft)
    But pro-choice people don't walk up to random pregnant women and literally offer them the choice of abortion. They just think the choice should be legal. Just like in my hypothetical example, I would think the choice to have a one night stand should be legal.
    My point was about those who think abortion is morally wrong, but are still pro-choice. If you think something is morally wrong, but support it, then your morals are superficial. It's a bit like saying "I'm against euthanasia but I support the legal right for someone to choose to die!"

    Pregnancy is a consequence of sex. Childbirth isn't, unless you choose for it to be.
    But why would someone choose to get pregnant knowing that they didn't want to continue to childbirth? That's just wrong!

    Over 50% of women who get abortions used contraception during the month they became pregnant.
    I did say earlier that I'm not necessarily against abortion in cases of failed contraception. Although I'm sure some of the women asked may have told porky-pies when they were asked.
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    (Original post by John82)
    My point was about those who think abortion is morally wrong, but are still pro-choice. If you think something is morally wrong, but support it, then your morals are superficial. It's a bit like saying "I'm against euthanasia but I support the legal right for someone to choose to die!"
    It means you are consistent when it comes to freedom. You allow people the freedom to choose their morals without enforcing your own morals onto them. Because I sure as hell wouldn't want someone enforcing their morals onto me. Put this way, I wouldn't want my wife/gf having an abortion and would dissuade her to do so except as a last resort, but when it comes to other people, they shouldn't be forced to accept my morals - and have the liberty to choose.
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    But why would someone choose to get pregnant knowing that they didn't want to continue to childbirth? That's just wrong!
    Uhhhhhhh.. who said that?

    Not everyone chooses to get pregnant...

    (Unless you're of the "if you choose to have sex, you are automatically choosing to get pregnant" camp)
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    But thats where religion plays a part. In some religions, as you may know, sex happens to get pregnant once married and that is all.
    I do not believe that sex is just for pregnancy, I have sex for enjoyment also.
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    (Original post by spk)
    I think you mean "i.e. abstinence", since that is the only infallible way to avoid pregnancy - unless you catch it from a toilet seat.
    A woman could get pregnant from a toilet seat if she sat down before her partner stood up!

    If a woman was using contraception she would have made the choice not to get pregnant anyway. I'm not necessarily against an abortion when contraception has failed. Also, an abstinent woman could be raped.
 
 
 
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