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    (Original post by Lou..)
    Grades are only half the battle when it comes to becoming a doctor. Your passion has to be there also. And by the sounds of things you have the passion! Ok so your grades aren't the stereotypical medicine grades but so what. You got to fight for your dream!

    I told my careers teacher I wanted to do medicine after I got my gcse results and she laughed in my face and said I should just do nursing. I got 1A*, 4 A's and 4 B's. Cut a story short. I have an offer for medicine with pre medical studies year, access to medicine course and waiting for a decision on medicine with foundation year. Not bad for someone who could only do nursing.

    So yeah fight for it! Show everyone that you CAN do it! Believe me you get your passion across and you will succeed! Get your head down for a levels and it will all pay off
    oh brilliant! where's your pre-med course? and have you heard from keele?
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    (Original post by Lou..)
    Grades are only half the battle when it comes to becoming a doctor. Your passion has to be there also. And by the sounds of things you have the passion! Ok so your grades aren't the stereotypical medicine grades but so what. You got to fight for your dream!

    I told my careers teacher I wanted to do medicine after I got my gcse results and she laughed in my face and said I should just do nursing. I got 1A*, 4 A's and 4 B's. Cut a story short. I have an offer for medicine with pre medical studies year, access to medicine course and waiting for a decision on medicine with foundation year. Not bad for someone who could only do nursing.

    So yeah fight for it! Show everyone that you CAN do it! Believe me you get your passion across and you will succeed! Get your head down for a levels and it will all pay off
    Thank you so much. Really nice to see the odd motivational comment lol
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    (Original post by Ulo)
    oh brilliant! where's your pre-med course? and have you heard from keele?
    Lancaster ! Argg don't talk about keele. STILL no decision! Prob going to have to ring tomorrow!
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    (Original post by Alison1992)
    For this year, sheffield, bristol and edinburgh were all asking AAB, i suppose they'll be changing for 2012 entry, but that just emphasises the point that OP's chances of getting into medicine by the traditional route is unlikely





    But OP has a better chance of getting in this way considering his GCSE's and AS's so far which is probably very slim
    Where do you get your information from?

    You have written so much BS on this thread, you're giving the guy the wrong information. Just stop.
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    (Original post by fletchdd02)
    Where do you get your information from?

    You have written so much BS on this thread, you're giving the guy the wrong information. Just stop.
    Okay, sorry the guy i know with offers for medicine from those places has AAB offers, so it is possible to do it on AAB
    And, it's not the wrong information, it WILL be easier to get into biomedical science than medicine and is IS unlikely that OP will get into medicine based on his GCSE's, chosen A level subjects and current success rate in those A levels considering that it's ridiculously competitive.

    I could argue that those who are saying otherwise are giving OP false hope and THAT's the wrong information.
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    WEW, WEW, WEW, WEW, WEW, WEW, WEW.

    Simmer down everyone... Someone is in need of help/advice and ructions are brewing. Chill.

    Yes, your GCSE grades are not that of extremely high standards that everyone expects for medicine, but why should that stop you?
    You seem like a very dedicated Docannabe (Doctor wannabe ) so go for it, do everything you can, and most of all STUDY HARD! I understand the lack of being able to do well because of your working environment! I'm in the same situation, my school is terrible, and my teachers have a go at me for having a dramatically lower attendance than the other students, but my argument is that I am doing far better than them academically. I have achieved A*A*A*A*A already in my GCSE's and Im sitting my exams this May/June.
    People who say you can't do things are the worst, so don't listen to them, It really got me down sometimes when people said I couldn't do something because of something I lacked.
    And yes, personality is a well needed trait to being a doctor, but lets be serious here people, it's not as important as knowledge. That's just my opinion anyway, If I was in dire need of medical attention, and there was a 'very nice, kinda dim, nowhere near top of his class in medical school but still ridiculously kind and helpful' doctor and a 'glum, moody, but knew everything there was to know about medicine' doctor. I know which doctor I would want treating me.
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    (Original post by Ayshizzle)
    Only go for grad entry if you have a spare 40 grand in the bank.

    You do know that most uni's have access programmes for people who've come from bad schools? You should contact the universities about it.

    Also, defo try and do chemistry, it's the core requirement of pretty much every single medical course.
    I'm fairly certain you only have to pay the first year up front on the 4 year course. The last 3 years are funded aren't they?

    If this is the case the 5 year course would be considerably more expensive.
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    (Original post by lsaul95)
    If I was in dire need of medical attention, and there was a 'very nice, kinda dim, nowhere near top of his class in medical school but still ridiculously kind and helpful' doctor and a 'glum, moody, but knew everything there was to know about medicine' doctor. I know which doctor I would want treating me.
    That's just because you've been watching too much House and you're thinking about one kind of doctor.

    If patients don't like or trust their doctor, they won't tell them things, they won't listen, they won't understand things, they won't do what you ask to help themselves, they'll make the wrong decisions, they won't take their medicines properly, they won't manage their chronic conditions well, they will feel more fear, they will feel more pain, they'll probably even - at some limit experience greater suffering and death. Everything about their experience will be worse.

    You also often need to understand the social and emotional aspects of people's lives to understand what is right for them medically.

    The exception is maybe if you're a doctor solely dealing with unconscious patients in emergency situations where there is a clear cut course of action to take - but even then there is the family. They need to be encouraged to ask questions, retain that information and they need help with the decisions they have to make. And how much of medicine is clear cut emergency treatments on unconscious patients eh?

    It's not about being extra goofily friendly or "helpful" in the sense of offering them a tea or being "nice".

    It probably varies between specialties, granted, but certain personal attributes that involve an appropriate manner of dealing with people are extremely important in medicine.

    Mostly its not life saving operations and emergencies you know.

    The field of medicine is probably more about public health and communication than ever before. It's helping someone quit smoking, or finding out they have a lump in their breast they haven't told you about, or helping them deal with how depressed they feel about their chronic heart condition, that they haven't told you about.. and is making them sicker because they don't feel they can leave the house, and they aren't getting support from their spouse... etc Or realising that you can't give someone drugs that will make them drowsy if they are studying for exams. Or that they're allergic to an anaesthetic agent... Communication is life changing and sometimes life saving. And you generally have to be able to obtain that information very very quickly.

    Every doctor has passed a medical degree and then speciality exams to ingrain them with the basic knowledge and test for a basic level of competency. Gross incompetency of knowledge/skill are rare. Again the kind of personality to say "actually I don't know how to do that so I'm not going to try" or "I need a second opinion because I'm not sure" would further remove a lot of these mistakes.

    It's people going to their GPs and not feeling able to tell them that they have a little lump here or there, or another symptom, or their suicidal ideation going unnoticed, or not getting the right kind of encouragement to lose weight or quit smoking, or anything missed through a failure of communication that kills far more people.
    I think generally it is the manner/communication/empathy/understanding that makes the difference between a good doctor and a bad doctor. Especially if you are a GP. People are complex they need you to understand them as more than a disease.


    Rant over, sorry you probably didn't particularly deserve it, just felt like saying all that.. kind of generally.. to everyone.
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    Rant over, sorry you probably didn't particularly deserve it, just felt like saying all that.. kind of generally.. to everyone.
    Hahaha, no worries, I felt your pain too.

    But just to clarify, by 'dire need of medical attention' I did mean the emergency scenario
    I didn't however, think of the family situation, I didn't think they would be there straight away, for example if I was in a car crash and got rushed to the emergency room, I wouldn't expect my family to be in there with me, unless they were in the car of course. But yes, that is a very delicate situation.

    haha no, no, noooooooo. You've totally misunderstood my rant. Dammit, I probably should've worded it better instead of hammering the keys like a mad man trying to get a justification across quickly...

    Of course every doctor needs a good personality, and to be caring. I never said that they didn't I actually believe I wrote 'personality is a well needed trait to being a doctor'. Without a sound personality, you will not succeed in medicine, at all. Like you stated, the patient needs to be able to feel comfortable in the situation they are in.

    I was simply saying that I believe knowledge is a larger contributing factor in being/becoming a doctor of medicine. However without the combination of a good personality, and understanding of patients needs and the up-most willingness to care for your patients, then the knowledge is nothing.


    Sorry for my incoherent first post, I hope you understand what I meant from this
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    That's just because you've been watching too much House and you're thinking about one kind of doctor.
    P.s. I don't like House Junior Doctors provided a more realistic approach to medicine, and was really quite interesting, however, Spongebob Squarepants is the one for me. :}
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    (Original post by modini)
    I'm fairly certain you only have to pay the first year up front on the 4 year course. The last 3 years are funded aren't they?

    If this is the case the 5 year course would be considerably more expensive.
    For 2011 entry, yes. But OP wouldn't graduate until 2014/15 right?

    Considering the fees rise I doubt they will be funding the entire amount anymore. You'd pay £9000 in the first year, and then a reduced £6000 for the consecutive 3 years. This hasn't actually happened yet btw, but seeing as they're cutting funding for other healthcare courses that were previously NHS- funded, I doubt they'll carry on funding grad- entry schemes. They simply can't afford it.
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    (Original post by Alison1992)
    Okay, sorry the guy i know with offers for medicine from those places has AAB offers, so it is possible to do it on AAB
    And, it's not the wrong information, it WILL be easier to get into biomedical science than medicine and is IS unlikely that OP will get into medicine based on his GCSE's, chosen A level subjects and current success rate in those A levels considering that it's ridiculously competitive.

    I could argue that those who are saying otherwise are giving OP false hope and THAT's the wrong information.
    Yes, it's easier to get into biomedical science than medicine, but it's actually harder to get into medicine after having done a biomedical science degree than at school- leaver level.
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    (Original post by Ayshizzle)
    For 2011 entry, yes. But OP wouldn't graduate until 2014/15 right?

    Considering the fees rise I doubt they will be funding the entire amount anymore. You'd pay £9000 in the first year, and then a reduced £6000 for the consecutive 3 years. This hasn't actually happened yet btw, but seeing as they're cutting funding for other healthcare courses that were previously NHS- funded, I doubt they'll carry on funding grad- entry schemes. They simply can't afford it.
    Ah ok that makes sense. Damn.
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    (Original post by lsaul95)
    Hahaha, no worries, I felt your pain too.

    But just to clarify, by 'dire need of medical attention' I did mean the emergency scenario
    I didn't however, think of the family situation, I didn't think they would be there straight away, for example if I was in a car crash and got rushed to the emergency room, I wouldn't expect my family to be in there with me, unless they were in the car of course. But yes, that is a very delicate situation.

    haha no, no, noooooooo. You've totally misunderstood my rant. Dammit, I probably should've worded it better instead of hammering the keys like a mad man trying to get a justification across quickly...

    Of course every doctor needs a good personality, and to be caring. I never said that they didn't I actually believe I wrote 'personality is a well needed trait to being a doctor'. Without a sound personality, you will not succeed in medicine, at all. Like you stated, the patient needs to be able to feel comfortable in the situation they are in.

    I was simply saying that I believe knowledge is a larger contributing factor in being/becoming a doctor of medicine. However without the combination of a good personality, and understanding of patients needs and the up-most willingness to care for your patients, then the knowledge is nothing.


    Sorry for my incoherent first post, I hope you understand what I meant from this
    Oh dw, I didn't particularly get a bad impression from your post anyway. You don't have to worry about me thinking badly of you, I'm just an internet nobody anyway

    I was just trying to contribute to debate. Imo people severely underestimate how important the communication/connection with patients is.

    I would say that subtle failures on that level kill and harm more people than the more dramatic, "obvious" failures in treatment that everybody seems to think about. I could be wrong.
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    (Original post by digitalis)
    They are decidedly mediocre.
    In comparison to the nation at large they're actually quite good, it's just that medical students are not selected from nor expected to be within the "middle", so as far as med applicants go they aren't mediocre, but towards the very bottom of the spectrum. I don't see why people are rating you down for your comment. It's simply a statement of fact that universities will not be at all impressed with those results.

    to the author:
    without wishing to sound harsh the information you have provided shows that you haven't met the minimum gcse requirements of most universities. AFAIK Newcastle/ durham really do just want to see 5 gcse passes + a good UKCAT and manchester waive the gcse requirements in lieu of you already having the A'level grades. A couple of the newer medical schools are more relaxed with regards to GCSE grades but they also typically have higher applicant: place ratios so are by no means an "easier" place to get into.

    Have you considered any alternatives? There are a lot of ways you make a difference in a clinical setting without having Dr before your name.
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    (Original post by BeanofJelly)
    Oh dw, I didn't particularly get a bad impression from your post anyway. You don't have to worry about me thinking badly of you, I'm just an internet nobody anyway

    I was just trying to contribute to debate. Imo people severely underestimate how important the communication/connection with patients is.

    I would say that subtle failures on that level kill and harm more people than the more dramatic, "obvious" failures in treatment that everybody seems to think about. I could be wrong.
    I didn't realise my can of worms had been reopened o.o

    If you'll let me dip my hand back in for a moment, I think that failings in terms of personality were (traditionally) seen as less dire than failings in terms of knowledge. Thankfully, in this country it is unlikely you will get treated by someone who genuinely has poor knowledge/ skill. It is far more likely that you may dislike your doctors personality than that he/she won't know how to treat you when you tell them what is wrong with you. A slight lack of knowledge or skill can make a huge difference a lot of the time, I don't think the same is true in terms of personality (most of the time).

    Also, you forget that connection with the patient isn't always the best situation for a doctor. When I listened to medical students they talked about the importance of emotionally removing yourself from situations at times. To do otherwise can be detrimental to doctors psychological well being. I don't think you can complain about a doctor having "too much skill" or "too much knowledge" in the same way, though.
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    (Original post by Davidragon)
    I didn't realise my can of worms had been reopened o.o

    If you'll let me dip my hand back in for a moment, I think that failings in terms of personality were (traditionally) seen as less dire than failings in terms of knowledge. Thankfully, in this country it is unlikely you will get treated by someone who genuinely has poor knowledge/ skill. It is far more likely that you may dislike your doctors personality than that he/she won't know how to treat you when you tell them what is wrong with you. A slight lack of knowledge or skill can make a huge difference a lot of the time, I don't think the same is true in terms of personality (most of the time).

    Also, you forget that connection with the patient isn't always the best situation for a doctor. When I listened to medical students they talked about the importance of emotionally removing yourself from situations at times. To do otherwise can be detrimental to doctors psychological well being. I don't think you can complain about a doctor having "too much skill" or "too much knowledge" in the same way, though.
    I'm not talking about patients "liking" you or being "connected" to your patients as in overtly emotionally attached to them.

    I'll try to think of a really basic example. Take into account I'm not exactly a medical expert lol, so if it's a little bit wrong it's a little bit wrong.

    Umm Sandra, she's 57 - she was in the garden and her back suddenly really hurt. She went to the GP the next morning to try and get some medication for the pain.

    GP scenario 1. Sandra feels that the GP's attitude is dismissive and superior. She senses that he/she feels that she is wasting their time. When it comes to describing what happened, Sandra feels like she shouldn't "make a big deal" of her symptoms because she's starting to think coming at all was making too much of a fuss. The GP doesn't notice that there is anything more Sandra wants to tell him/her. They get the impression she has a normal back ache resulting from a strain. She leaves with some medication that addresses her pain.

    GP scenario 2. Sandra goes into the GP and explains her back pain. Sandra gets the impression the GP takes her seriously and is interested in her "case". The GP reassures her that she's not "being silly". Both of these things make Sandra want to share more about what happened with the GP. There's something she's a little embarassed about, and can't quite tell the GP. The GP however picks up on this and asks Sandra if there is anything else, reassuring her that her information is confidential. The whole vibe of the situation (as established by the GP) is that she now feels able to share her embarassing information. Sandra has experienced some urinary incontinence since the accident and overnight.

    Sandra (1) doesn't get referred to a specialist in time to reverse permanent damage to her urinary continence. Sandra (2) does. The knowledge of the GPs was the same.


    Or any number of other examples I guess...

    The GP who helps his patient to lose weight and quit smoking will do more to save their life than the surgeon who would otherwise have been conducting that heart bypass...

    If a child comes into A&E with a broken arm after falling out of a tall tree, almost any doctor can deal with their broken arm. But only a doctor that knows just how to talk to her will find out that he arm is broken because her mother threw her out a window...

    An elderly gentleman is prescribed pain medication for his blood pressure. But the doctor doesn't check to make sure that he can swallow them/ or remember how to take them/ or he doesn't communicate in the right way to find out that that man has a urinary problem which will be exacerbated by drugs.. so that his wife no longer feels able to care for him at home...


    Alas I should be the one making up sob stories for casualty...:moon:
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    (Original post by BeanofJelly)
    I'm not talking about patients "liking" you or being "connected" to your patients as in overtly emotionally attached to them.

    I'll try to think of a really basic example. Take into account I'm not exactly a medical expert lol, so if it's a little bit wrong it's a little bit wrong.

    Umm Sandra, she's 57 - she was in the garden and her back suddenly really hurt. She went to the GP the next morning to try and get some medication for the pain.

    GP scenario 1. Sandra feels that the GP's attitude is dismissive and superior. She senses that he/she feels that she is wasting their time. When it comes to describing what happened, Sandra feels like she shouldn't "make a big deal" of her symptoms because she's starting to think coming at all was making too much of a fuss. The GP doesn't notice that there is anything more Sandra wants to tell him/her. They get the impression she has a normal back ache resulting from a strain. She leaves with some medication that addresses her pain.

    GP scenario 2. Sandra goes into the GP and explains her back pain. Sandra gets the impression the GP takes her seriously and is interested in her "case". The GP reassures her that she's not "being silly". Both of these things make Sandra want to share more about what happened with the GP. There's something she's a little embarassed about, and can't quite tell the GP. The GP however picks up on this and asks Sandra if there is anything else, reassuring her that her information is confidential. The whole vibe of the situation (as established by the GP) is that she now feels able to share her embarassing information. Sandra has experienced some urinary incontinence since the accident and overnight.

    Sandra (1) doesn't get referred to a specialist in time to reverse permanent damage to her urinary continence. Sandra (2) does. The knowledge of the GPs was the same.


    Or any number of other examples I guess...

    The GP who helps his patient to lose weight and quit smoking will do more to save their life than the surgeon who would otherwise have been conducting that heart bypass...

    If a child comes into A&E with a broken arm after falling out of a tall tree, almost any doctor can deal with their broken arm. But only a doctor that knows just how to talk to her will find out that he arm is broken because her mother threw her out a window...

    An elderly gentleman is prescribed pain medication for his blood pressure. But the doctor doesn't check to make sure that he can swallow them/ or remember how to take them/ or he doesn't communicate in the right way to find out that that man has a urinary problem which will be exacerbated by drugs.. so that his wife no longer feels able to care for him at home...


    Alas I should be the one making up sob stories for casualty...:moon:
    I absolutely agree with your points. In certain contexts, approach (attitude wise) is as important (or more important) than skill. However (as you can read in my comments going back) my point is that it depends on the context. I don't believe that all doctors have to be amazing bastions of all medical knowledge amidst the rest of us mere mortals in the same way that I don't believe that all doctors have to be charismatic extroverts with a knack for people. I also think it is over simplistic to say that both these traits are both as important in every clinical context.

    I agree, doctors need some level of both (correct attitude and communication/ clinical skill and knowledge) to function as doctors, but obviously people have different strengths and weaknesses and the skill set required in different specialities reflects this.

    A pathologist isn't any less of a doctor if his/her communication skills aren't as good as they could be as long as that doesn't prevent him carrying out his role which is far more reliant on his scientific abilities in diagnosis (probably a sample of potentially cancerous tissues or something).

    For a Child Psychiatrist, however, approach is tantamount if not more important than any knowledge of psychiatric disorders he/she may have. The requirement of his communication skills is far high than that of the Pathologist, if his/her approach is slightly incorrect the patient could become defensive, unresponsive or (in an extreme case) they may worsen their conditions. Without being greatly skilled in his/her approach, his/her knowledge is useless. If then his/her knowledge then is not fantastic, at least he/she have searched for the problem and they would have noted down important features for later diagnosis. They may have achieved a great deal more than a Psychiatrist with far more knowledge and lesser people skills would have through their approach.

    Neither are any worse for their lacking, as their strengths heavily out weigh them in the context of their specialities

    What I'm trying to get at is, I don't think being really good at both is essential to be a good doctor. Obviously we try to improve where we lack if necessary, but we are, after all, human.
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    (Original post by Davidragon)
    blabla
    Yep, agreed.

    My point was a lot of people (not you! But a lot) really don't take into account the communication skills that can be life-changing or life-saving.

    I think that side of things is probably more important for morbidity/mortality overall (not necessarily for the individual doctor) compared to the "more obvious"/sciency side of being a doc - there are more GPs than pathologists :p:

    Especially as we get round to keeping everyone alive - it becomes more about the subtleties of managing chronic conditions and QOL, and patients have long term relationships with their doctors. Not to mention an ever increasing (and sensible) shift toward talking people out of killing themselves with their bad habits (preventitive medicine ftw).

    We agree. Blabla etc etc

    EDIT:
    Also, (pathologists aside perhaps) these skills are more important for most doctors than people seem to think. Somebody has to refer that child to the Child Psychiatrist. If you fail communicatively its just as much a failure as if make an equivalent practical error - but I think these failures may go unnoticed, even by the well-intentioned people who make them - because they are less obvious and under-prioritised.

    + You don't have to be an extrovert to get it right. Not everybody who is good at listening, asking the right questions, being calming/reassuring in the right circumstances, etc etc is an extrovert.
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    (Original post by BeanofJelly)
    blabla
    Yeah, I think we generally agree and I get your point. That side of things tends to be more subtle and complex, and they aren't the sorts of things that are immediately obvious sometimes.
 
 
 
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