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    (Original post by badtothebone)
    Lol. Osbourne is an economic joke. You said Ireland was doomed to fail....but thats not what Osbourne sais. he said he should learn from irelands economics...its just laughable, he could not have got it any more WRONG!!! he was wrong in the boom years and is wrong now in the bust years. complete joker. Look and learn from across the Irish Sea by George Osbourne

    further, why has winter fuel allowance been cut. old people WILL die. its not an academic debate, this is life and death for a lot of people. you want to go and visit some freezing cold 86 year old and tell her how successful these cuts are going to be! how sharp fast cuts are proven towork.!! please think about it.
    Osbourne is not wrong. He just doesn't care if people lose their jobs and people die from the lack of services.

    To people like Osbourne we are disposable cattle, and let's face it, they'd rather be without a lot of us.
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    (Original post by badtothebone)
    Lol. Osbourne is an economic joke. You said Ireland was doomed to fail....but thats not what Osbourne sais. he said he should learn from irelands economics...its just laughable, he could not have got it any more WRONG!!! he was wrong in the boom years and is wrong now in the bust years. complete joker. Look and learn from across the Irish Sea by George Osbourne

    further, why has winter fuel allowance been cut. old people WILL die. its not an academic debate, this is life and death for a lot of people. you want to go and visit some freezing cold 86 year old and tell her how successful these cuts are going to be! how sharp fast cuts are proven towork.!! please think about it.
    But I suppose you are an economical genuis? Notice the date of the article, 2006. Back then people thought Gordon Brown was a good chancellor, so swings and roundabouts. You can't predict economics, predictions are almost always wrong or out. Doesn't change the fact that the cuts Ireland is making is why their economic is in the pan, which is what I was responding to, and doesn't change the fact that Canada boomed after sharp and fast cuts in the '90s.

    The winter fuel allowance hasn't been cut, it has been reduced. I don't want to sound harsh but if a 86 year old is freezing then put more clothes on and wrap up under some blankets, it's common sense. You don't wait to freeze to death and blame it on the government.
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    (Original post by pol pot noodles)
    But I suppose you are an economical genuis? Notice the date of the article, 2006. Back then people thought Gordon Brown was a good chancellor, so swings and roundabouts.
    where did that come from. Why do you have to go on about Labours problems whilst admitting tory ones - every tory i no has this reaction when they have to admit that they are crap...'well labour....' give it a rest........I agree that labour are bad but we are talking about the tories here. In any case SOME people thought Brown was a good chancellor, marxists thought he was ****e! the whole point about it was the date. in2006 osbourne is going look at ireland look how they have long term economic planning and then 2 years later they collpase....what a genius!!! a cring every time i read it thinking Osbourne you don't even understand your own system of economics, whata FOOL!

    (Original post by pol pot noodles)
    You can't predict economics, predictions are almost always wrong or out.
    you can predict that capitist economics IS boom and bust. its a fact. from this you realise that Ireland, Britain, everywhere is unsustainable and at a time bubbles will pop.

    (Original post by pol pot noodles)
    Doesn't change the fact that the cuts Ireland is making is why their economic is in the pan, which is what I was responding to, and doesn't change the fact that Canada boomed after sharp and fast cuts in the '90s.
    No Ireland suffered as a result of the worldwide crises because it applied capitalist economics which are unsustainalbe and are the economics of boom and bust. Ireland then decided to cut savagely. then it got worse and they got bailed out by the EU/IMF (and 7bn loan from us! even though 'we've maxed out all our credit cards' and 'theres no money left') Now they are cutting further and guess what...its going to get worse again!

    In britian. we are cutting and our economy is shrinking, inflation rising and unemployment rising.

    are you saying that Canada cut as hard and fast as the current plans??!!!



    (Original post by pol pot noodles)
    The winter fuel allowance hasn't been cut, it has been reduced.
    lol. its called being cut! the same way that pay can be cut and jobs ar being cut and the same way the government talks of benefit CUTS. calling it a reduction does not change the fact that is is a CUT. ther is no point in playing word games about it.
    (Original post by pol pot noodles)
    I don't want to sound harsh but if a 86 year old is freezing then put more clothes on and wrap up under some blankets, it's common sense. You don't wait to freeze to death and blame it on the government.
    did you really just say that? you think in the 21st centuy 86 year old should be in their homes wrapped up in blankets all day because despite working all their lives, fighting in wolrd wars and paying into the system the government takes away £100 from their fuel allowance. Thats the way we treat old poor people is it? whilst other people spend 3,000 on a bottle of champagne or buy a mansion with their years bonus..!!
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    (Original post by garethDT)
    Osbourne is not wrong. He just doesn't care if people lose their jobs and people die from the lack of services.

    To people like Osbourne we are disposable cattle, and let's face it, they'd rather be without a lot of us.
    yes there is that as well. a lot of Tories like to argue that they are realists and pragmatists and economically sensible. so i think you've got to shout about it when they make the most ridiculous statements as it undermines their credibilty to be economically sensible when they want to learn from ireland just before it goes bust and then refuse to learn from it that cuts make recessions worse. it basically proves that isealogy is not the important thing for them its just whatever policy makes them richer at the time and to hell with the consequences for the working class
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    (Original post by badtothebone)
    where did that come from. Why do you have to go on about Labours problems whilst admitting tory ones - every tory i no has this reaction when they have to admit that they are crap...'well labour....' give it a rest........I agree that labour are bad but we are talking about the tories here. In any case SOME people thought Brown was a good chancellor, marxists thought he was ****e! the whole point about it was the date. in2006 osbourne is going look at ireland look how they have long term economic planning and then 2 years later they collpase....what a genius!!! a cring every time i read it thinking Osbourne you don't even understand your own system of economics, whata FOOL!
    I bring in Labour because you speak as if Osbourne is the only person who has ever got anything wrong. Labour claimed that it solved boom and bust, look how well that turned out. Unless you have any evidence that the cuts in Ireland are linked to it's economic collapse, then Ireland is irrelevant to an argument about cuts in the United Kingdom.

    (Original post by badtothebone)
    you can predict that capitist economics IS boom and bust. its a fact. from this you realise that Ireland, Britain, everywhere is unsustainable and at a time bubbles will pop.
    I know that, nobody has denied that. The bubble has popped in the UK, that is why spending must be reduced.

    (Original post by badtothebone)
    No Ireland suffered as a result of the worldwide crises because it applied capitalist economics which are unsustainalbe and are the economics of boom and bust. Ireland then decided to cut savagely. then it got worse and they got bailed out by the EU/IMF (and 7bn loan from us! even though 'we've maxed out all our credit cards' and 'theres no money left') Now they are cutting further and guess what...its going to get worse again!
    You are talking out of your ass. Ireland is an exceptional case of a little country that spent way beyond it's means. It's economy hit the crappers, and it had a 32% budget defecit. If it didn't cut the recession would not have been as bad but it would be swamped with debt within 5 years. If it cuts, which it did, economic growth worsens and the country still sinks. The UK does not have a 32% budget defecit, has a stronger private sector than Ireland, has larger cash reserves, a better credit rating and more clout on the international money markets, so you can not compare Ireland to the UK.


    (Original post by badtothebone)
    In britian. we are cutting and our economy is shrinking, inflation rising and unemployment rising.

    are you saying that Canada cut as hard and fast as the current plans??!!!
    No, Canada did not cut as hard and fast because they were not faced with a 15% budget defecit like we are. Nevertheless theirs was big and the decided to cut deep, and within three years their economy was booming again.
    The UK economy is not shrinking, it shrunk for one quarter due to the november/december snow and is predicted to grow by 0.2-0.5% in the first quarter of this year. Not spectacular growth I know, but still growth.


    (Original post by badtothebone)
    lol. its called being cut! the same way that pay can be cut and jobs ar being cut and the same way the government talks of benefit CUTS. calling it a reduction does not change the fact that is is a CUT. ther is no point in playing word games about it. did you really just say that? you think in the 21st centuy 86 year old should be in their homes wrapped up in blankets all day because despite working all their lives, fighting in wolrd wars and paying into the system the government takes away £100 from their fuel allowance. Thats the way we treat old poor people is it? whilst other people spend 3,000 on a bottle of champagne or buy a mansion with their years bonus..!!
    Apologies I misread that, I thought you meant cut as in axed. Yes it is regretable, but really, common sense dictates that if you are cold, and can not afford to turn the heating on, wrap up, don't just wait to freeze to death. We appreciate what they did in the second world war, but that does not mean you can blame the government if you freeze to death. This is typically Labour rhetoric: The state and taxpayer money is needed to do even the simplest of tasks. Why wrap up for the cold if we can spend millions heating peoples homes eh?
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    (Original post by badtothebone)
    yes there is that as well. a lot of Tories like to argue that they are realists and pragmatists and economically sensible. so i think you've got to shout about it when they make the most ridiculous statements as it undermines their credibilty to be economically sensible when they want to learn from ireland just before it goes bust and then refuse to learn from it that cuts make recessions worse. it basically proves that isealogy is not the important thing for them its just whatever policy makes them richer at the time and to hell with the consequences for the working class
    The ones who really make me laugh are the working class tories, they think that by accepting being treated like dirt claiming to be realists and pragmatists gives them some intellectual authority over their counterparts who kick off, when really it just makes them cowards.
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    (Original post by garethDT)
    The ones who really make me laugh are the working class tories, they think that by accepting being treated like dirt claiming to be realists and pragmatists gives them some intellectual authority over their counterparts who kick off, when really it just makes them cowards.
    absolutly. I think that their number would decline if they had confidence in the various organs of the working class to change their situation as i think working class tories deep down have a 'if you can't beat them join them' attitude. Some on the other hand are...i guess brainwashed isnt too far off.
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    I'm gonna make a few points here.

    1) Ok, Labour did not solve boom and bust. But have you checked the unemployment figures for the last recession, compared to the previous 2 recessions (which were both under Tory management). It was significantly lower. The result of this was a budget deficit - standard keynesian economics. Even though GDP fell more than the last recessions, unemployment, as a percentage, was less, which means Gordon Brown did a GOOD job at handling the recession (i'm not talking about the causes), whether you like to admit it or not. Cutting VAT was the exact right thing to do, benefitting the people at the bottom the most, and encouraging spending.

    2) We are now in stagflation. Unemployment is going up. Inflation is going up. GDP is going down. YES, the economy is shrinking. The Office For National Statistics said that even without the snow, it would have been about 0, which is a downward trend. In a couple of weeks, we'll see the next quarter's growth, and if it's 0.2% i'll laugh, because actually thats way off the "office for budget responsibility"'s earlier prediction of something like 2-3% for 2011. More likely, it will shrink again. Back to stagflation, this is the worst economic situation to be in. Remember Ford and Carter, US presidents? Maybe not, because they managed a US economy which was under stagflation, and neither of them got re-elected.

    3) It is sickening that people on low incomes are facing benefit cuts, public service closures and cuts (like libraries, education grants etc.), redundancy etc. while rich companies get corporation tax cuts, and are taking multimillion pound bonuses. Is anyone suggesting these people at the bottom don't work as hard as the people at the top. Because that is just pig ignorant.

    Just to say, i'm not at the bottom. I have a lot of friends whose families have low incomes, but we're doing alright. Probably if I voted Tory, it would benefit me the most. But I actually can appreciate that the ridiculous capitalist society we live in is inherently unfair. Not only this, but the Tories plan doesn't even make economic sense. But my Mum has been made redundant from a council job of "climate change officer", which apparently is not important enough.

    Ignorance and arrogance are two things that Tories fuel their views on, and I can argue that case to death.
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    (Original post by dominicjohnson)
    I'm gonna make a few points here.

    1) Ok, Labour did not solve boom and bust. But have you checked the unemployment figures for the last recession, compared to the previous 2 recessions (which were both under Tory management). It was significantly lower. The result of this was a budget deficit - standard keynesian economics. Even though GDP fell more than the last recessions, unemployment, as a percentage, was less, which means Gordon Brown did a GOOD job at handling the recession (i'm not talking about the causes), whether you like to admit it or not. Cutting VAT was the exact right thing to do, benefitting the people at the bottom the most, and encouraging spending.

    2) We are now in stagflation. Unemployment is going up. Inflation is going up. GDP is going down. YES, the economy is shrinking. The Office For National Statistics said that even without the snow, it would have been about 0, which is a downward trend. In a couple of weeks, we'll see the next quarter's growth, and if it's 0.2% i'll laugh, because actually thats way off the "office for budget responsibility"'s earlier prediction of something like 2-3% for 2011. More likely, it will shrink again. Back to stagflation, this is the worst economic situation to be in. Remember Ford and Carter, US presidents? Maybe not, because they managed a US economy which was under stagflation, and neither of them got re-elected.

    3) It is sickening that people on low incomes are facing benefit cuts, public service closures and cuts (like libraries, education grants etc.), redundancy etc. while rich companies get corporation tax cuts, and are taking multimillion pound bonuses. Is anyone suggesting these people at the bottom don't work as hard as the people at the top. Because that is just pig ignorant.

    Just to say, i'm not at the bottom. I have a lot of friends whose families have low incomes, but we're doing alright. Probably if I voted Tory, it would benefit me the most. But I actually can appreciate that the ridiculous capitalist society we live in is inherently unfair. Not only this, but the Tories plan doesn't even make economic sense. But my Mum has been made redundant from a council job of "climate change officer", which apparently is not important enough.

    Ignorance and arrogance are two things that Tories fuel their views on, and I can argue that case to death.

    Climate change officer isnt an important job.
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    tempting.

    I'm thinking hundreds of mini-protests on May Day?
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    (Original post by pol pot noodles)
    But I suppose you are an economical genuis? Notice the date of the article, 2006. Back then people thought Gordon Brown was a good chancellor, so swings and roundabouts. You can't predict economics, predictions are almost always wrong or out. Doesn't change the fact that the cuts Ireland is making is why their economic is in the pan, which is what I was responding to, and doesn't change the fact that Canada boomed after sharp and fast cuts in the '90s.

    The winter fuel allowance hasn't been cut, it has been reduced. I don't want to sound harsh but if a 86 year old is freezing then put more clothes on and wrap up under some blankets, it's common sense. You don't wait to freeze to death and blame it on the government.
    The reason Osborne gets stick over this earlier views is the lack of consistency in his approach. Osborne was already Shadow Chancellor in 2006 and the economic model he wanted to follow was that of Ireland. In 2007 he said he would match Labour's spending plans pound for pound for the first three years. Only after the financial crisis hit, did he reverse what he was saying and start criticising Labour for spending too much for 'over a decade' and keeping bringing up Ireland as an example of where we would end up if we didn't follow his austerity plans. It is just opportunism and it doesn't suggest that he really knows what he is doing. The worst thing is, his earlier policy approach means that if he had been in government we would have ended up at least as bad as we were under Labour and if he'd had his way over following the Irish model we would have ended up even worse. So it is rich of him to criticise the past government.

    Now like you suggest, there was a general 'consensus' in the 2000s which was wrong, ie that we had abolished boom and bust and we could continue running budget deficits which would be paid off by the proceeds of higher growth in the future. The Conservatives were as much a part of that consensus as Labour. There was also a general consensus that the financial system was doing just fine thank you and did not need regulation. Again the Conservatives were as much if not MORE a part of that consensus as Labour. So when Osborne and his mates now say "well who was responsible for regulating the banks....LABOUR" that is more trash, because the Tories never argued for tighter regulation on the banks!!

    There's a big difference between this incoming Tory government and Mrs Thatchers government in the 1980s. From the point Mrs Thatcher became Leader of the Opposition in 1975 she was critical of the Labour approach, she caused controversy within her own party by being critical of the "post war consensus" and suggesting instead a model of smaller state, curtailed trade union power, lower taxes, privatisation. She had to win that battle with her own party before she could take it on to the country. But she was consistent in what she was saying in Opposition and that gave her credibility that she had the solution when she came into government, so the electorate gave her a chance when things were rocky in the early 1980s. Now if she had spent the 1970s talking about the same model the Labour party had used, and only changed her mind about it with the 79 election looming, then I don't think she would have been taken seriously either within her party or in the country, and she wouldn't have won a hat-trick of elections.
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    (Original post by The_Great_One)
    Climate change officer isnt an important job.
    You have no idea what the work entailed, so how on earth can you make that judgement. See what i mean about ignorance?
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    I propose the next protest to be in saudi arabia.

    That way you might actually get to see some of this police brutality you've been going on about so much...
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    (Original post by Manitude)
    I propose the next protest to be in saudi arabia.

    That way you might actually get to see some of this police brutality you've been going on about so much...
    Pointless comment. Everything is relative - every time you say "i'm starving" or "i'm hot" or anything else, think about other countries, which are much worse off than you. Exactly the same logic.
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    (Original post by The Socialist Worker)
    In 1979, when Tory Margaret Thatcher came to office
    Lol they had to remind their readers that Thatcher is a Tory. Also, it's a bit pathetic that they have to keep mentioning stuff that happened 40 years ago to retain any of their relevance.
 
 
 
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