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    I take it im right !
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    I admit the last day of the first test was ridiculous, but the way they played the other days they should have won - they got themselves into a superb position, and then did what the england of 5 years ago would have been expected to do (wasn't it 43 they got bowled out for in the WI? ah tufnell....)
    I dont think they're at crisis point - considering the differences of cricket on the sub continent, they should be happy with getting a draw from this situation - its often the case in sport that after a big win you go down (especially if your english - e.g. after the rugby world cup, or even the football world cup - we lost to scotland I believe! :eek:)
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    (Original post by bikerx23)
    (wasn't it 43 they got bowled out for in the WI? ah tufnell....)
    46 all out - Curtly Ambrose at his fiery best.
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    (Original post by pete77)
    Eng deserved to lose the first test, look at how diabollically they batted, disgraceful, Good Pak bowling though !

    Eng deserved to lose the second test as well, Good pressured bowling and they were struglling to save it 20-4 should have been 50 all out if it wasnt for the middle order saving them and their time wasting tactics
    So if Pakistan fight back from a bad spell they deserve to have won, first test.

    But if England fight back they don't deserve to have drawn?

    Double standards there. If Pakistan deserved to win the first match they certainly didn't deserve to have won the second. "Oh, you only drew because your middle order was good!" Um, well yeah. You do tend to only do well because your players do well. :rolleyes:

    How about the fact we outplayed you for 4 days in the first match?

    Or winning 6 series in a row beforehand?
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    as you say - the bowling was too good for him so early on in his career, which is why I believe he shouldn't have been playing - due to the importance of the series. but, lets leave it there anyway.

    what do you guys say about blackwell being called up for the ODIs?
    personally I think he would make a good test player, and he can actually bat, which is better than giles (he's very hit and miss anyway...)
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    LOL

    If they are good they should adapt to the conditions and perform being on the subcontinent or on bouncy tracks is not an excuse ! They knew what they were facing !

    Aussies in their peak would never have said oh subcontinent is hard !

    Listen to yourself they should have won ! Well why dint they perhaps not good enough may be a reason, temperament may be a reason !
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    (Original post by tis_me_lord)
    So if Pakistan fight back from a bad spell they deserve to have won, first test.

    But if England fight back they don't deserve to have drawn?

    Double standards there. If Pakistan deserved to win the first match they certainly didn't deserve to have won the second. "Oh, you only drew because your middle order was good!" Um, well yeah. You do tend to only do well because your players do well. :rolleyes:

    How about the fact we outplayed you for 4 days in the first match?

    Or winning 6 series in a row beforehand?
    I think it would be fair to say that England outplayed Pakistan at Multan, and a good session and half meant that Pakistan won. Whereas Pakistan played better than England at Faisalabad, and credit to Pietersen and Flintoff to reign in their natural instincts to save the game - at 20/4 a Pakistan win looked a definite possibility.

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    (Original post by bikerx23)
    what do you guys say about blackwell being called up for the ODIs?
    personally I think he would make a good test player, and he can actually bat, which is better than giles (he's very hit and miss anyway...)
    Blackwell is a good player IMO, but not Test class. Saying he's a better bowler than Giles is streching it a bit.
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    Thats why Test Cricket against top sides calls for performances & performances & performances if you perform on 4 days but the other side hangs in and performs to win !

    I am afraid Eng have themselves to blame, dont seem good enough for 1 or 2 not after this !
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    (Original post by Socrates)
    Yep 6 in a row.

    England aren't in crisis, they are missing Jones no doubt. Playing two spinners was a mistake, especially as both of them are crap.

    Now that Pakistan have given England a run for their money, beating India will be a whole lot harder - India are famous for pitches cracking up on day 1 - and indian have the bowlers to exploit it.
    Well H. Singh will be the biggest threat probably. But they don't have good fast bowlers unlike Pakistan which will help our openers get off to a start, and hence boost morale more for the whole innings. A young player like Bell will be a lot happier to take over at 100-1 then 2-1... obviously.

    As long as we confine them to a low score first innings we should win. We just can't let their players like Sehwag, Dravid and Tendulkar to get huge totals.

    Also crucial is the toss. We've lost both so far, and it's a huge toss to lose in Pakistan or India.
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    I didn't say he was a better bowler than giles though - just a better all round player...
    should definately be in the ODI squad though - looking at who we have we should be in good stead for the next world cup
    personally - my squad...
    Trescothick
    Strauss
    Vaughan
    Collingwood
    Pietersen
    Flintoff
    G. Jones
    Blackwell
    Hoggard
    Harmison
    Anderson
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    (Original post by tis_me_lord)
    Well H. Singh will be the biggest threat probably. But they don't have good fast bowlers unlike Pakistan which will help our openers get off to a start, and hence boost morale more for the whole innings. A young player like Bell will be a lot happier to take over at 100-1 then 2-1... obviously.

    As long as we confine them to a low score first innings we should win. We just can't let their players like Sehwag, Dravid and Tendulkar to get huge totals.

    Also crucial is the toss. We've lost both so far, and it's a huge toss to lose in Pakistan or India.
    True, Pathan is up and coming - hes a good pace bowler.

    I still think England need a quality spinner if they are to beat India. Giles and Udal aren't the answer. Last time (in 2000) India won didn't they?

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    (Original post by bikerx23)
    I didn't say he was a better bowler than giles though - just a better all round player...
    should definately be in the ODI squad though - looking at who we have we should be in good stead for the next world cup
    personally - my squad...
    Trescothick
    Strauss
    Vaughan
    Collingwood
    Pietersen
    Flintoff
    G. Jones
    Blackwell
    Hoggard
    Harmison
    Anderson
    Wouldn't have Vaughan in my ODI side personally.

    Jones over Hoggard any day.
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    Its true - the toss is so crucial with the pitch deteriorating so quickly as you go through the test - there have been many games in the past where winning the toss is as good as winning the test - I believe a similar comment was made about trent bridge when we played NZ last summer...
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    (Original post by pete77)
    LOL

    If they are good they should adapt to the conditions and perform being on the subcontinent or on bouncy tracks is not an excuse ! They knew what they were facing !

    Aussies in their peak would never have said oh subcontinent is hard !

    Listen to yourself they should have won ! Well why dint they perhaps not good enough may be a reason, temperament may be a reason !
    Actually Aussies ended a long winning streak in India I believe.

    I'd like to see how Pakistan would fare vs England in England. You can't just adapt in an instant. We have a young team, and for a lot of our players it's their first experience of those types of wicket.

    For example Pietersen couldn't play your type of spin in the first match, but just one match later he improved loads. You need to give them a game or two to get used to it, rather then them magically being adaptable having not played on it before!

    I still say if you should have won the second match we should have won the first.
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    hmm...I was torn between jones and hoggard - I cant remember jones' bowling whilst playing ODIs, so I was reluctant to include him...
    Vaughans the captain, so not much you can do there - maybe have him in a varaible position depending on how the initial batting goes - stick him in if theres an early wicket, but hold him back if they go for a while so you can put a bigger hitter in...
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    (Original post by tis_me_lord)
    I'd like to see how Pakistan would fare vs England in England. You can't just adapt in an instant. We have a young team, and for a lot of our players it's their first experience of those types of wicket.
    If we go for greentops, Pak will struggle. If they are anything like the pitches used in the Ashes - we could have an evenly matched series.
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    They had 2 tour matches and net practice to adapt !

    But dint have quality spin bowlers to practice against !




    (Original post by tis_me_lord)
    Actually Aussies ended a long winning streak in India I believe.

    I'd like to see how Pakistan would fare vs England in England. You can't just adapt in an instant. We have a young team, and for a lot of our players it's their first experience of those types of wicket.

    For example Pietersen couldn't play your type of spin in the first match, but just one match later he improved loads. You need to give them a game or two to get used to it, rather then them magically being adaptable having not played on it before!

    I still say if you should have won the second match we should have won the first.
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    exactly - not like before the ashes where we gave the aussies about 2 months and 20 ODIs to get into their stride
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    (Original post by bikerx23)
    I didn't say he was a better bowler than giles though - just a better all round player...
    should definately be in the ODI squad though - looking at who we have we should be in good stead for the next world cup
    personally - my squad...
    Trescothick
    Strauss
    Vaughan
    Collingwood
    Pietersen
    Flintoff
    G. Jones
    Blackwell
    Hoggard
    Harmison
    Anderson
    Sorry to keep this going but Bell DEFINITELY needs to be in there. He's the new Thorpe. Collingwood hasn't performed at all at test level, so why do you give him second chances and criticise Bell to no end?

    I'd pick Bell over Pietersen, more reliable. But the obvious choice is to replace Collingwood instead.

    Simon Jones over Anderson in the blink of an eye.

    Blackwell is FAT. I saw him in a Somerset vs Scotland match about a year ago and he does NOT look like a test match player. I know they said that of Flintoff or Shoiab, and look at them now. But he really is too damn fat.
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    (Original post by bikerx23)
    exactly - not like before the ashes where we gave the aussies about 2 months and 20 ODIs to get into their stride
    I think the ODIs vs Pakistan are before the Tests as well.

    Pakistan are a dangerous ODI side, if they win the ODIs they could take the momentum into the Tests. Then again, they are unpredictable.
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    umm...dont you mean India socrates? yes - they are a very good ODI side aswell...
 
 
 
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