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Thatcherism's Error of Judgement watch

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    Mrs Thatcher didn't dismantle those industries, they were failing and not competitive. The UK could not sustain them as other countries could produce the goods more efficiently. We had to change the specialism of our economy and we could have either lived in denial and struggled to subsidise them or make the change, which is what Mrs Thatcher did.

    I actually think she has an unfair reputation as this kind of symbol of everything that is evil and ruthless about capitalism. Some of what Blair did with PFI and the cuts and reforms being proposed now, especially to the NHS, are a step further than Mrs Thatcher would go.

    Yes she believed in private v public but her agenda was never about targeting the poor to make them worse off, in the way she is demonised. These days there's always a lot of argument about private v state schools and unfair life opportunities....in Mrs Thatcher's day, if you passed the exam for a private school and the private school accepted you, but your parents earned below a threshold, the state subsidised your fees via an Assisted Place. That wouldn't even be considered now.
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    Now it's the other way round, everyone can pass the exams but only a few can afford to go!
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    (Original post by Aj12)
    You know TSR. Far to many people hate her for things she did before they were born....
    Surely also far too many people like her for things she did before they were born...I think looking back at history, we should all be allowed to have a well-educated opinion.
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    (Original post by PJMillar)
    Surely also far too many people like her for things she did before they were born...I think looking back at history, we should all be allowed to have a well-educated opinion.
    But if you go by some of the opinions on TSR many are not well educated. Some genuinely hate her wish her to be dead ect.
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    (Original post by PJMillar)
    This is where I feel Thatcherism went wrong: she was a shopkeeper's daughter, and the institutions with which she relied upon - a free education, free healthcare, cheap public transport, etc.
    Who cares about her working class roots when she forgot about them herself?
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    As people said before I almost went off the thread when you called her brilliant - but I do agree with some of the post. Trying to privatise NHS/BBC is the wrong way to go about things, we should also have a nationalised railway system - it's insane the prices people have to pay.

    I still refuse to agree she was a good prime minister though (and yes, I have studied her - I haven't based this on popular student opinion).
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    (Original post by Craiky1506)
    As people said before I almost went off the thread when you called her brilliant - but I do agree with some of the post. Trying to privatise NHS/BBC is the wrong way to go about things, we should also have a nationalised railway system - it's insane the prices people have to pay.

    I still refuse to agree she was a good prime minister though (and yes, I have studied her - I haven't based this on popular student opinion).
    She was a great figurehead, she was a master of foreign policy, putting Britain on the world stage, and she reversed a stagnated British economy and made it prosporous.

    Just remember that Thatcher would never have cut the NHS, nor would she have made public transport private. But for such a brilliant politician, I can't believe she was so naive, and couldn't see the disaster that has followed.

    When I say brilliant politican, that doesn't mean to say she was a good person - far from it, she was a bloody monster at times, but like Stalin, was a fine politician.

    You can't have such an unbalanced economy in one country - the only way in which it can become more balanced is if we had a few wars on the go, and we needed raw materials. Obviously though, we'd probably be importing these from abroad anyway.

    Your view on the railways is something I completely agree with too. Costs more to hand out EMA and other benefits, when it would be far easier to take this away and allow (for example) some students to travel for less - it could all be part of tax.
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    (Original post by Aj12)
    But if you go by some of the opinions on TSR many are not well educated. Some genuinely hate her wish her to be dead ect.
    "Fatcher's a facking witch!"...nah, we haven't seen any of that...I think there are good arguments from both sides (in this particular case) and can't you see why there is so much anger? She brought about the most rapid change Britain has seen in the 20th century, economically and socially.

    Pragmatically, Thatcher was brilliant - she was a do-er, a realist, but she also played dirty political tricks like the Falklands which undoubtedly won her the 1983 election at the expense of many, many lives.

    So principally, Thatcher wasn't brilliant...far from it, and she characterised a society in my opinion which now sees internships after University which can only be completed by students with enough money to find somewhere to live in London.

    Such is the unemployment problem caused by Thatcher - she was intent on transforming our economy so quickly, so soon. Her gung-ho, going-for-the-jugular attitude left places like Birkenhead (see 1989 World in Action documentary), an old shipping town, a place of children eating from rubbish skips and heroin being the only way to have a good time for 12 year olds. Awful.

    That's what huge transformation does - it kills people. Thatcher was ruthless, she broke up communities for the benefits of Britain's wealth. She should've done this, but far more sensibily and long-term with Britain's long-term interests at heart. She had her own legacy at heart, I think...I still maintain that Clement Attlee will always be Britain's best peacetime Prime Minister - the socialist changes he made still exist today in spite of an 18 year Tory rule...

    Perhaps, once again, democracy can be blamed - the fact she was squeezing through so much change because the election was four years away, while also going for short-term spins like the Falklands War.
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    (Original post by Aj12)
    But if you go by some of the opinions on TSR many are not well educated. Some genuinely hate her wish her to be dead ect.
    I'll be honest, if you went into the WMC in my village on a sunday night and mentioned your love (generally speaking) for Thatcher you'd end up in hospital. I hate the woman and it wouldn't bother me one bit if she died.
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    (Original post by tulley11)
    I'll be honest, if you went into the WMC in my village on a sunday night and mentioned your love (generally speaking) for Thatcher you'd end up in hospital. I hate the woman and it wouldn't bother me one bit if she died.
    Yet your 18 so never lived under her PMship
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    (Original post by PJMillar)
    Margaret Thatcher was a truly brilliant politician, but in spite of her many magnificent achievements, it was her failure to understand one important principle which should have been closest to home that will always take away the shine for me.

    Firstly, she ran the country as a President, almost a monarch, and this gave her a huge amount of power. Some of her policies were excellent: selling off council houses in principle was sound, as was her battling away the trade unions and Skargill.

    However, in joining the Conservative Party, and in privatising many important institutions, Thatcher forgot the importance of her roots, and her rise to politics.

    For her rise to such a prominent position has to be as a consequence of Clement Attlee, the inspirational post-war Labour PM, who in 1945 was voted in by a very shrewd electorate. Attlee and Thatcher are on very different ends of the political spectrum, yet one couldn't have come without the other.

    Attlee's Labour built the backbone of modern British society, allowing a welfare state which supported equality of opportunity to a very large extent. The NHS, the BBC - surely you all realise why these exist? Britain is so much better with a strong NHS and a strong BBC.

    This is where I feel Thatcherism went wrong: she was a shopkeeper's daughter, and the institutions with which she relied upon - a free education, free healthcare, cheap public transport, etc.

    Now I feel this is being eroded, and it is something Thatcher lay the foundations for, like Leninism lay the foundations for Stalinism. Without Thatcher, I believe Universities would still be free, because we wouldn't have such an over-reliance on white-collar, service-based jobs and such an under-reliance on skilled, blue-collar industry.

    Personally even I - somebody who relates with many of Thatcher's policies during the 1980s, disagree with her not replacing the coal industry she destroyed.
    If I were in power now, I'd renationalise the railways, I'd fully renationalise the buses, I'd renationalise water and I'd renationalise gas and electric. In contrast, I would scale back the Royal Mail, for while it still plays an important role, it has been replaced by the brilliant invention which is the internet and e-mail, and I wouldn't renationalise phones.

    There are some things too important to be in the private sector...we have a great BBC and as a society we're much better off for one - it's the epitome of democracy in our country and I can't understand why people would want to cut back on such a well-respected institution. Furthermore, I don't understand arguments against the TV license.

    So when I see so much shallow nationalistic bullsh*t words of appreciation towards our Iron Lady (notwithstanding the propaganda-wonder which was the Falklands War), I'm understandably irritated.

    Are you?
    The BBC was a Conservative idea, The Conservative laid the bricks and cut the ribbon. The BBC is a fantastic achievement of the tory party.

    I do think as time goes on the licence fee will be out of date. I want to see a strong BBC and brilliant BBC. It will have to find alternative funding. The tory party has liberated the BBC. The BBC was weak as it was bullied by the previous Labour government, Labour would try and run the BBC as if it was their platform- it was a dictatorship. The tory party has liberated the BBC and allowed the BBC to go back to basics and go back true journalism.

    The NHS again was another achievement for the tory party. It is was a Liberal idea, the tories laid the bricks and Labour just cut the ribbon. The emphasis should placed at those who laid the bricks and those who provided the idea. However, it does need reforming. The last 13 years of Labour have highlighted abuse of the greatest scale in our NHS.

    Thatcher was a fantastic leader and true inspiration. I agree with your point in regards water privatisation. I never believed essential basic commodities such as water should ever be privatised
    .I would agree with the rest of privatisation- railways, universities etc... She did provide the backbone of modern Britain and provided Britain with a great economy. She turned Britain from the sick man of Europe to the dynamic force of Europe.

    In terms of mining- it wasn't her fault. Britain could never compete with India, China, Pakistan, Brazil etc... Of course like anything, mining had to go.
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    (Original post by Aj12)
    Yet your 18 so never lived under her PMship
    Until you live in the area I live in you can't comprehend the hatred for Thatcher here. Simple.

    I guess the only opinions you'll allow me to have are the ones on Major, Blair, Brown & Cameron then. Fantastic logic there..
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    (Original post by Aj12)
    Yet your 18 so never lived under her PMship
    you're not german and not over 70 so you never lived under Hitler. don't you know he got the trains to run on time and eliminated unemplyment! yet if I ask you about Hitler you're BOUND not to like him even though you never lived under his dictatorship! OUTRAGEOUS!
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    (Original post by PJMillar)
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    Thatcher and thatcherism is good for rich people and bad for the working class. She destryoed british manufacturing, she broke the unions, she put millions on the dole, privitised important services, and gave tax cuts to the rich. Theres not really much of an argument to be had - she wrecked many people lives and thatcherism is pushing back all the gains from post WW2. If its not stopped we will be back to the 1930's.
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    (Original post by badtothebone)
    you're not german and not over 70 so you never lived under Hitler. don't you know he got the trains to run on time and eliminated unemplyment! yet if I ask you about Hitler you're BOUND not to like him even though you never lived under his dictatorship! OUTRAGEOUS!
    Not liking is different to out right hatred.

    And Yeah I do know all that. History A level
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    (Original post by Aj12)
    Not liking is different to out right hatred.

    And Yeah I do know all that. History A level
    lol. well i think its fair to say i hate hitler. i also hate thatcher. the fact that i didnt live under any of them is irrelevant. I don;t need to witness a holocaust, or a brutal police state to feel disgust. I don't need to witness the neglect of a whole class of citizens - a crime of economics - to feel sick about it. Thats not to say hitler and thatcher are one and the same or of equal 'badness' but i don't have to live under someones rule to hate the consequences of their policies. Hitler is an example of exagerating to demonstrate that point.
 
 
 
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