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Rally against debt - finally a counter march! watch

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    (Original post by Jacktri)
    she acted in the interest of business owners.
    Or the private sector as a whole and also aspirational individuals from all walks of life. I know many working class children of Thatcher, who were inspired by her rhetoric (I say rhetoric because really she didn't smash the state as much as people claim.)
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    I love it how many Thatcher lovers keep mocking Labour for the recent recession when the 1980-81 and 1990-91 recessions began under Thatcher. :sleep:
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    (Original post by hollywoodbudgie)
    I love it how many Thatcher lovers keep mocking Labour for the recent recession when the 1980-81 and 1990-91 recessions began under Thatcher. :sleep:
    Nothing worse than seeing idiots on this forum saying Labour caused the recession :facepalm2:
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    (Original post by hollywoodbudgie)
    I love it how many Thatcher lovers keep mocking Labour for the recent recession when the 1980-81 and 1990-91 recessions began under Thatcher. :sleep:
    The ire is more aimed at the fact that we were promised it would never happen again by the then Chancellor, Gordon Brown. I won't blame Labour for the recession, obviously, but I will blame then for not taking safeguards preventing us being quite such a mess - all goverments should undertake procedures to ensure that we are prepared for this sort of thing to happen again. That no-one worried about the downsides during a time of substantiated economic growth somewhat perplexes me.
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    (Original post by arabcnesbit)
    Everyone involved in this debate are hypocrites. The UK's personal debt is higher than its GDP. You can't take out a mortgage you can't afford and rack up the credit card debt and then be for or against the cuts.

    If people and governments were not so obsessed with consumerism, we would all be better off.
    The problem with capitalism is as soon as one country does it everyone else has to try and keep up, leading to an arms race in growth and in consumerism. If you try to buck the trend you end up dying on the circuit like the Soviets, giving in to capitalism like the Chinese, or slowly killing your population while pretending it's not happening like the North Koreans.
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    (Original post by CandyFlipper)
    First of all, I'm not a Tory - there is a long history of liberals who seek small government in the UK. If anything they were often accusing the tories/conservatives of being in favour of a large state. Of course, small government Tories do exist and they'll be at this rally, but the classical liberals will be out in full force as well.

    Secondly, your personal attack is just petty - Thatcher herself was hardly from a rich background and yet she was the "ultimate" small government Tory. You don't need to be rich to believe that its a bad thing to be spending more on the interest payments of our debt than we spend on education. You don't need to be rich to recognise that we have an ageing population and their pensions/health payments that need to be made quite soon are currently unaccounted for. Not to mention the fact that interest rates on our debt aren't fixed - in Portugal their cuts have failed to be supported by opposition parties and their interest payments have shot up to around 6% which is now widely being regarded as unsustainable and its expected that a bailout will be required.

    This is why even Labour would have cut £40bn themselves. Only the economically illiterate are against all cuts - its nothing to do with how rich people are.
    1. Torys are liberals

    2. Although the deficit should be eliminated, this should be done over a greater amount of time. The interest thing is a little choppy in my opinion; countries don't bother paying off debt (As a general rule) unlike households because they can borrow at such a cheap rate that what is to be gained by investment outweighs what is lost in interest.

    3. As I already said reduce the deficit over a greater amount of time, as opposed to giving the country 4-5 years of economic trashing before saying how you (The torys) sorted out the economy just before the next general election. Yes, cuts are necessary but they will harm the poor more.
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    (Original post by PendulumBoB)
    1. Torys are liberals

    2. Although the deficit should be eliminated, this should be done over a greater amount of time. The interest thing is a little choppy in my opinion; countries don't bother paying off debt (As a general rule) unlike households because they can borrow at such a cheap rate that what is to be gained by investment outweighs what is lost in interest.

    3. As I already said reduce the deficit over a greater amount of time, as opposed to giving the country 4-5 years of economic trashing before saying how you (The torys) sorted out the economy just before the next general election. Yes, cuts are necessary but they will harm the poor more.
    Some may be. But this as a generalisation is very wrong.
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    (Original post by LawBore)
    Some may be. But this as a generalisation is very wrong.
    Classical libertarianism=liberal

    low taxes
    small government
    low spending
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    (Original post by Aj12)
    Nothing worse than seeing idiots on this forum saying Labour caused the recession :facepalm2:
    Let's not fight each other lefties; but yeah reaganomics caused the recent recession
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    (Original post by PendulumBoB)
    Classical libertarianism=liberal

    low taxes
    small government
    low spending
    Not all Tories are classical libertarians I wish, but just no. Maybe you would like to include some kind of social dimension, one that even more tories don't share?
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    (Original post by LawBore)
    Not all Tories are classical libertarians I wish, but just no. Maybe you would like to include some kind of social dimension, one that even more tories don't share?
    That's fair enough.
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    (Original post by hollywoodbudgie)
    I love it how many Thatcher lovers keep mocking Labour for the recent recession when the 1980-81 and 1990-91 recessions began under Thatcher. :sleep:
    Well I don't think a heavily partisan approach ever works. Historically, recessions have always happened under both governments and the confusing thing is that its difficult to trace back to the origins of the problems. For example there may indeed have been a recession early on under Thatcher's leadership but look at the legacy she was left in 79 - rampant inflation, unemployment, low growth, powerful self-interested unions etc. So do you blame the previous Labour government, do you go back to Heath? Only a diehard partisan tends to have any confidence in where to lay the blame. I personally like to think of both the parties as being equally bad for the most part, with Thatcher being quite a bit better than the rest of them but still far from perfect.

    Regarding the recent crisis, I wish people would stop placing the blame on Labour for not regulating enough. I actually believe the precise opposite - that it was actively government policy to expand home ownership to the poor, which is why nationalised central banks kept artificially low interest rates, pumped in the credit etc. It was a (government fuelled) bubble that was always going to burst. Sure the banks overlent to risky borrowers, but the government clearly encouraged that. Bailing them out when they fail is the last thing to do if you want to discourage that kind of behaviour as well. The banking sector remains totally broken and its only a matter of time until it crashes again. And I admit, if/when it happens, it won't matter whether Labour or the Tories are in power, it'll go tits up either way.

    But remember this too - the Tories would have done the same as Labour before and during the recession. But Labour would have done many of the things the Tories are doing now. They'd have increased VAT, made spending cuts etc. It goes both ways, being partisan blinds people to the truth whether they're pro Labour or pro Tory.
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    (Original post by PendulumBoB)
    1. Torys are liberals

    2. Although the deficit should be eliminated, this should be done over a greater amount of time. The interest thing is a little choppy in my opinion; countries don't bother paying off debt (As a general rule) unlike households because they can borrow at such a cheap rate that what is to be gained by investment outweighs what is lost in interest.

    3. As I already said reduce the deficit over a greater amount of time, as opposed to giving the country 4-5 years of economic trashing before saying how you (The torys) sorted out the economy just before the next general election. Yes, cuts are necessary but they will harm the poor more.
    1) That is just a blatant lie or misunderstanding, because I'm a libertarian/liberal and not a Tory/Conservative. So if they're the same thing, I make no sense. You're right that a faction of the modern Conservative party is classically liberal on economic issues, but that's it. You ignore social and foreign policy differences, you ignore all the other Tory factions (traditionalists, one nation Tories etc) and you definitely ignore all historical differences between liberalism and conservatism. I wish you were right, by the way, but you're not.

    2/3) Try telling that to Portugal right now, who have just seen their interest rates rise and are now going cap in hand to the EU to get a bailout. We already spend £45bn on the interest of our debt and by 2015 this will be in excess of £60bn (since the debt is increasing dramatically under this government, of course) - that will already be more than we spend on education. Do you really want that sum to be higher firstly because the deficit is larger therefore the debts larger and secondly because interest rates on the debt would go up? I don't see how much larger debt interest payments is a progressive approach to take or whatever, it just makes our economy less sustainable.

    Besides, government spending over the course of this parliament is going down - in real terms - by 3.5% ... is that really so radical? Seriously? Put another way the state is contracting back down to the size it was around 2007. I seem to remember doctors and teachers existing in the year 2007, the change is already absolutely minimal in other words, why bother to make it even more so? An "economic thrashing", to repeat, a 3.5% reduction. Stop being so dramatic.
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    Leave the EU
    UKIP have said many times UK would save soo much money per day
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    (Original post by theman360)
    Leave the EU
    UKIP have said many times UK would save soo much money per day
    Thats not going to solve a 140(?) billion deficit though.
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    (Original post by Aj12)
    Thats not going to solve a 140(?) billion deficit though.
    It'd sure help a lot and without having such a direct impact on the poor in the UK.
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    http://politicalscrapbook.net/wp-con...ainst_debt.jpg

    Lol. 350, tops?

    This hilarious little chap is furious about it:

    Rally Against Debt was a waste of time, a waste of resources, and a waste of the genuinely good minds of some of the people who attended. All that they have managed to do is confirm everyones worst fears about the so called ‘Libertarians’ who shout the loudest. Despite identifying with many of their aims I’ve found myself completely disgusted. There is a role for techniques for raising awareness of issues. This was simply a circlejerk for fools.
    And even Toby Young was too busy taking his kids to a state-funded museum to attend!

    What a complete farce.
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    finally people with common sense are protesting, it feels refreshing to know theirs people out their who actually dont think the cuts are unecessary.
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    (Original post by hollywoodbudgie)
    I love it how many Thatcher lovers keep mocking Labour for the recent recession when the 1980-81 and 1990-91 recessions began under Thatcher. :sleep:
    tbf thatcher never harped on about "an end to boom and bust" or her "golden rule". Any chancellor/ prime minister that makes a point of promoting their fiscal responsibility is going to be made a laughing stock when the country churns out back to back record peacetime deficits.

    Thatcher is treated quite differently largely because it's fairly obvious she knew her restructuring of the economy was going to cause a recession but thought it worth it. This tends to result in people either thinking her brave or heartless.
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    (Original post by Llamageddon)
    tbf thatcher never harped on about "an end to boom and bust" or her "golden rule". Any chancellor/ prime minister that makes a point of promoting their fiscal responsibility is going to be made a laughing stock when the country churns out back to back record peacetime deficits.

    Thatcher is treated quite differently largely because it's fairly obvious she knew her restructuring of the economy was going to cause a recession but thought it worth it. This tends to result in people either thinking her brave or heartless.
    Can we take the mickey out of someone who, while claiming to roll back the state, increased state spending, who signed the SEA and joined the ERM while claiming not to be pro-european, who saw a rise in devorses and a fall in marrage while proclaiming a return to victorian values and who saw a rise in crime while claiming to be the 'toughest' governemnt ever.

    I could go on.
 
 
 
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