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    Good luck trying to police the working classes with nothing more than disapproval on a forum :lol:. It would be far easier to get women to have a thicker skin, given that 99% of women couldn't give a crap about it, and a significant percentage even get a nice little ego boost from it. It's not like men are free from this either, i've been on nights out and had my ass slapped by 30 year old women, and groups of middle age women going 'wooo oi oi sexi' etc. It's all in good fun.
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    I'm not saying the idea is necessarily bad. It would be more credible if the anti-harassment group also were standing up for men, children, old people as well as women to be defended from harassment. But this hasn't been the case. Only women are being defended. And remember not all women feel harassed from those things that have been mentioned in this thread. Women, to your surprise, some women even like it. Like I said, not everyone will give a damn about it anyway as there are more important things to worry about.
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    (Original post by Cable)
    I talked about punishments as some other girls mentioned earlier that men should face punishments for it. So I assumed the group was going to try and make the government punish the "harassment". But if this isn't the case, what the heck is the point of this movement then?! Why are you wasting your time and our time on something that won't make that much of a difference anyway?
    The point being, if it becomes more socially unacceptable less people might do it. No one is wasting your time, you don't have to do it, you don't have to be involved with it, no one is forcing you to do it.

    It's funny how the Anti-harassment group only focus on the harassment of women. Why have they ignored the harassment of men by women? Why are women made out in this modern feminist society to be the worst victims? This is why I hate modern feminism in general these days. They completely focus on women problems and make out they're the worst victims but ignore men's problem.
    Maybe they feel it's a bigger problem for women. If you feel that men would benefit from such a group, no one is stopping you from creating one.

    So the whole point of this movement is to make it more socially unacceptable to "harass" women? Have you read on of my earlier posts? You and the anti-harassment group must be extremely naive to think everyone on the planet gives a damn about a group of men shouting "How's it going love?" There's more important things to worry about. And if you think for one second that everyone in the UK is actually going to tell their mates and suggest to them not to "harass" women, then you need help. Everyone has got more important things to do and talk about than women being "harassed". Not everybody is going to care or give a damn about your "movement."
    Who speculated about the number of people who would partake in it? If you've got more important things to worry about, then go and worry about those important things and get on with your own life.


    And therefore, this "movement" is a waste of time. In the world, with the government, with the police, there's no morality. There's law. Something is either legal or illegal. Anything in between just has to be dealt with. The "movement" ain't gonna make hollering/shouting at women illegal. You can't make our freedom of speech illegal. So men can't be punished for hollering. So why bother wasting your time over it? Pretending the "movement" is gonna make it more socially unacceptable (which isn't going to happen) isn't going to make the problem go away. So what will you women do then? Go to your anti-harassment website and ***** and moan about it? Or will you just ignore the men and get on with your life?
    If it's a waste of time stop discussing it!

    Let's say I was walking down the street during the day and there was a group of women standing outside a shop. And as I was walking past them, one of them shouted at me "Nice arse boi", the other girls started giggling together loudly and they all kept shouting at me. And there were lots of people around me, including women. What would the people expect me to do? Would they expect me to start getting upset about it and feel "harassed"? Would they, most likely, ignore the situation because they expect me to be a man, ignore it and move on with my life? Would a WOMAN intervene for me and try and help me out because I was getting "harassed?" Or would she expect me to be a MAN and dealt with it? That's right. You know what would most likely happen. Everyone will ignore it and carry with what they were doing. Because they'll expect me to DEAL with it. A lot of you women should learn to do the same.
    Maybe, if it were more socially unacceptable people wouldn't see it this way.

    If it turns to groping or physical violence, obviously the police should get involved. But the anti-harassment group isn't needed for men shouting or whatever. You women should just deal with it.
    Then let us deal with it and go away.

    You seem to spend an awful lot of time moaning about something which you apparently 'don't give a damn' about.
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    (Original post by rlw31)
    1)The point being, if it becomes more socially unacceptable less people might do it. No one is wasting your time, you don't have to do it, you don't have to be involved with it, no one is forcing you to do it.



    2)Maybe they feel it's a bigger problem for women. If you feel that men would benefit from such a group, no one is stopping you from creating one.



    3)Who speculated about the number of people who would partake in it? If you've got more important things to worry about, then go and worry about those important things and get on with your own life.




    4)If it's a waste of time stop discussing it!



    5)Maybe, if it were more socially unacceptable people wouldn't see it this way.



    6)Then let us deal with it and go away.

    You seem to spend an awful lot of time moaning about something which you apparently 'don't give a damn' about.
    1) When did I say I wanted to do it or take part in it? Don't get me wrong, I would help a woman being harassed.

    2) The point of my posts is to illustrate that an anti-harassment group isn't necessarily needed. People don't necessarily need to waste time with the group. There's more important things in life to focus your time and energy on. Which is why men don't need one because we just deal with it.

    3) This is a forum. I'm entitled to add my views on the topic that has been raised. I just want others to see my view and think about it logically before they start unnecessarily jumping on this anti-harassment bandwagon. If they still think joining or supporting the group is vital, then fair enough.

    4)As I've said above, I'm showing a different perspective to it. So that people just don't hear about the group and automatically and blindly assume that women are the worst victims in the world. And like a lot of things in life, people have to learn to man up deal with things.

    5) OK. But I still stand by my point, that like a lot of things in life, you have to man up and deal with it.

    6) As above, I'm just adding my views on the subject. I do give a damn about it in the sense that a lot of people knee-jerk about things they hear in the media and blindly make wrong-assumptions. Like the modern feminist bandwagon for example. By adding my views like others have done on this thread, people would think about it more logically and come to better conclusions. However, I don't give a damn about the group itself. I'm not going to partake in it. And others won't give a damn as well.

    If you women feel it is so important a cause to support, then feel free to do so. I was just giving my opinions on the subject.
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    (Original post by misscharli)
    Theres nothing wrong with staring, its harassing, grouping, shouting at which is the problem.
    So, if you're walking down the street looking gorgeous, you're not going to mind me staring at you with my mouth hanging open?

    At what point does it become harassment? Staring in an obvious way? Whistling? Offering you a cigarette? Obviously just walking upto you and grabbing you ain't right.

    I think the point OP was trying to make is that a lot of women go out wearing belts for skirts and pieces of thread for underwear, knowing full well that they are going to pique the interest of countless blokes, and then they cry sexual harassment if a bloke so much as looks in her direction. Moral of the story: don't go out looking like you intend to take advantage of how short your skirt is if you don't.

    Anyway, as it is for me, it's a girl's face that turns my head, and seeing naked girls gamboling down the street doesn't turn me on. I'm far more likely to stare at you or try and talk to you if you're dressed sensibly and have a nice face.

    This is why I'm so shy around women. If see a girl I like, I daren't approach her for fear of being accused of harassment for simply saying "hey, what's your name?"
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    (Original post by Cable)
    1) When did I say I wanted to do it or take part in it?
    You didn't but you did say:
    Why are you wasting your time and our time on something that won't make that much of a difference anyway?
    If you don't partake in it, I really don't see how it could possibly waste your time.

    2) The point of my posts is to illustrate that an anti-harassment group isn't necessarily needed. There's more important things in life to focus your time and energy on. Which is why men don't need one because we just deal with it.
    You don't 'necessarily' need a lot of things, but it'd be nice to have some things.

    3) This is a forum. I'm entitled to add my views on the topic that has been raised. I just want others to see my view and think about it logically before they start unnecessarily jumping on this anti-harassment bandwagon. If they still think joining or supporting the group is vital, then fair enough.
    Fair enough.

    4)As I've said above, I'm showing a different perspective to it. So that people just don't hear about the group and automatically and blindly assume that women are the worst victims in the world. And like a lot of things in life, people have to learn to man up deal with things.
    Why should anyone have to 'man up' about harassment? Although, it's in the vast minority of cases some people are unfortunately, deliberately intimated and sometimes physically assaulted, if this group stops just one person from doing it, then that's a good thing.

    5) OK. But I still stand by my point, that like a lot of things in life, you have to man up and deal with it.
    See above.

    6) As above, I'm just add my views on the subject. I do give a damn about it because a lot of people knee-jerk about things they hear in the media and blindly make wrong-assumptions. By adding my views like others have done on this thread, people would think about it more logically and come to better conclusions. However, I don't give a damn about the group itself. I'm not going to partake in it. And others won't give a damn as well.

    If you women feel it is so important a cause to support, then feel free to do so. I want just giving my opinions on the subject.
    Ok.
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    (Original post by Tootles)
    So, if you're walking down the street looking gorgeous, you're not going to mind me staring at you with my mouth hanging open?

    At what point does it become harassment? Staring in an obvious way? Whistling? Offering you a cigarette? Obviously just walking upto you and grabbing you ain't right.

    I think the point OP was trying to make is that a lot of women go out wearing belts for skirts and pieces of thread for underwear, knowing full well that they are going to pique the interest of countless blokes, and then they cry sexual harassment if a bloke so much as looks in her direction. Moral of the story: don't go out looking like you intend to take advantage of how short your skirt is if you don't.

    Anyway, as it is for me, it's a girl's face that turns my head, and seeing naked girls gamboling down the street doesn't turn me on. I'm far more likely to stare at you or try and talk to you if you're dressed sensibly and have a nice face.

    This is why I'm so shy around women. If see a girl I like, I daren't approach her for fear of being accused of harassment for simply saying "hey, what's your name?"
    No, sexual harassment is not looking at her
    Any woman trying to take a man to court for simply glancing at her will fail miserably before it even get's a hearing.
    Do you even understand what harassment means?
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    (Original post by Tommyjw)
    No, sexual harassment is not looking at her
    Any woman trying to take a man to court for simply glancing at her will fail miserably before it even get's a hearing.
    Do you even understand what harassment means?
    I was being over-the-top for a reason; some women seem to interpret absolutely bloody everything as harassment when the urge takes them, and it pisses me off.
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    (Original post by Tootles)
    So, if you're walking down the street looking gorgeous, you're not going to mind me staring at you with my mouth hanging open?

    At what point does it become harassment? Staring in an obvious way? Whistling? Offering you a cigarette? Obviously just walking upto you and grabbing you ain't right.

    I think the point OP was trying to make is that a lot of women go out wearing belts for skirts and pieces of thread for underwear, knowing full well that they are going to pique the interest of countless blokes, and then they cry sexual harassment if a bloke so much as looks in her direction. Moral of the story: don't go out looking like you intend to take advantage of how short your skirt is if you don't.

    Anyway, as it is for me, it's a girl's face that turns my head, and seeing naked girls gamboling down the street doesn't turn me on. I'm far more likely to stare at you or try and talk to you if you're dressed sensibly and have a nice face.

    This is why I'm so shy around women. If see a girl I like, I daren't approach her for fear of being accused of harassment for simply saying "hey, what's your name?"
    Haha. The last bit was funny. To be fair, some girls on this thread have said approaching them in a nice manner is OK. But if this movement goes to the extreme, even approaching and talking to women in a friendly manner can be seen as harassment by some women. And don't forget if a hot guy approaches a woman, it's cute. If a not-so-hot guy approaches a woman, he's a creep lol.

    But I see the OP's point in general as well. But unfortunately, a lot of girls seem to have this strange idea that they can wear whatever the heck they like without consequences, in a world full of perverts and gropers (even though groping is wrong). I'm not saying they deserve to be groped or in some cases, shouted at offensively, just because they were half naked on a night out. But surely, they know that there'll be some men and perverts out there, who wouldn't be able to control themselves and then grope the girls. Or shout from a distance "Hi gorgeous". The girls must know this is likely to happen if they dress like half their t1ts and arse hanging out.

    And therefore, I find it unfair how these girls can claim to be "harassed", when they knew this was likely to happen with the way they dressed. And that's one of the reasons why I don't see the point of the anti-harassment group because it'll allow girls to have no self-control or self-respect with their dressing-up. It'll remove their responsibility to dress appropriately and sensibly (that doesn't mean they can't dress attractively at the same time. Dressing slutty doesn't equal dressing attractively). Whenever they're "harassed", they can just easily blame the men even if they're walking around in a bikini lol.
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    (Original post by Cable)
    Haha. The last bit was funny. To be fair, some girls on this thread have said approaching them in a nice manner is OK. But if this movement goes to the extreme, even approaching and talking to women in a friendly manner can be seen as harassment by some women. And don't forget if a hot guy approaches a woman, it's cute. If a not-so-hot guy approaches a woman, he's a creep lol.

    But I see the OP's point in general as well. But unfortunately, a lot of girls seem to have this strange idea that they can wear whatever the heck they like without consequences, in a world full of perverts and gropers (even though groping is wrong). I'm not saying they deserve to be groped or in some cases, shouted at offensively, just because they were half naked on a night out. But surely, they know that there'll be some men and perverts out there, who wouldn't be able to control themselves and then grope the girls. Or shout from a distance "Hi gorgeous". The girls must know this is likely to happen if they dress like half their t1ts and arse hanging out.

    And therefore, I find it unfair how these girls can claim to be "harassed", when they knew this was likely to happen with the way they dressed. And that's one of the reasons why I don't see the point of the anti-harassment group because it'll allow girls to have no self-control or self-respect with their dressing-up. It'll remove their responsibility to dress appropriately and sensibly (that doesn't mean they can't dress attractively at the same time. Dressing slutty doesn't equal dressing attractively). Whenever they're "harassed", they can just easily blame the men even if they're walking around in a bikini lol.
    There's my problem, I think.
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    (Original post by Cable)

    So the whole point of this movement is to make it more socially unacceptable to "harass" women? Apparently as someone has just said, they'll name and shame anyone that "harasses" women. Have you read some of my earlier posts? You and the anti-harassment group must be extremely naive to think everyone on the planet gives a damn about a group of men shouting "How's it going love?" There's more important things to worry about. And if you think for one second that everyone in the UK is actually going to tell their mates and suggest to them not to "harass" women, then you need help. Everyone has got more important things to do and talk about than women being "harassed". Not everybody is going to care or give a damn about your "movement." Seriously, who has the time and energy to "name and shame" the harassers? In a fantasy world, everyone would do this. But not in the real world. Welcome to reality.

    And therefore, this "movement" is a waste of time. In the world, with the government, with the police, there's no morality. There's only law. Something is either legal or illegal. Anything in between just has to be dealt with.
    If you live in a world where you can't tell your mates "hey, quit that, it's offensive" for things that aren't illegal... I'm sorry for you. Seriously, I've not much more to say on the subject than that. I've had friends ask me to lay off things that bothered them, and I've done likewise. Usually we go more on "let me explain why I'd prefer you stop that" than "YOU WILL GO TO JAIL!!!". If I had to resort to threatening them with jail... we probably wouldn't be friends any more.

    Aaaand inside a working environment (you know, WHEN YOU GET A JOB) I think you'll find that "company policy" can differ from "the law" a great deal. I've worked a lot of companies where they would suspend someone for that sort of behaviour, and yes, even on building sites that's started to filter down. A company hires a building firm for a contract, they get complaints from women passing the site, they don't hire that firm again. We're in a recession, there are LOTS of builders, they can afford to hire someone else.

    Seriously, you live in a world totally without social pressure for people to be decent to each other? Sucks to be you.
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    (Original post by Tootles)
    There's my problem, I think.
    Don't worry. I was only exaggerating a bit. You'll be fine as long as you dress well, look clean, have confidence/balls to approach her and flirt with her a lot. If she rejects you, her loss. Move onto the next one.
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    (Original post by Cable)
    But surely, they know that there'll be some men and perverts out there, who wouldn't be able to control themselves and then grope the girls.
    No.

    Not if they're in business dress.

    Not if they're half-naked.

    Not if they're nude.

    Not if they're drunk.

    Not if they're unconscious.

    You have control of your body. You have control over whether you reach out and touch someone or not. Would you accept "I have a suit fetish, I couldn't control myself"? No.

    If someone TRULY cannot control themselves from touching, no matter what the provocation, they are either a small child or have the impulse control of one. And if the second, they are mentally ill and need to be treated as such.
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    (Original post by Martyn*)
    I never used that argument, so I think that you are protesting a little too much.
    Lol are you surprised this is a feminist you were talking to they like to create arguements that fit the view even if the person who they arguing with does'nt hold that view forever anon did this a while back on the thread to me shes just likes to have a rant its as if she does'nt actually read what you wrote.

    Also she likes moving the goal posts she was complaining about 2 guys with less qualifications than her getting the job she wanted than when I told her this also happened to me with a woman with no qualifications she said well there could have been other reasons for you not getting the job.

    Well than why did she not consider that there could have been other reasons iver than her accusation of sexism that they got the job?
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    (Original post by foreveranon)
    If you live in a world where you can't tell your mates "hey, quit that, it's offensive" for things that aren't illegal... I'm sorry for you. Seriously, I've not much more to say on the subject than that. I've had friends ask me to lay off things that bothered them, and I've done likewise. Usually we go more on "let me explain why I'd prefer you stop that" than "YOU WILL GO TO JAIL!!!". If I had to resort to threatening them with jail... we probably wouldn't be friends any more.

    Aaaand inside a working environment (you know, WHEN YOU GET A JOB) I think you'll find that "company policy" can differ from "the law" a great deal. I've worked a lot of companies where they would suspend someone for that sort of behaviour, and yes, even on building sites that's started to filter down. A company hires a building firm for a contract, they get complaints from women passing the site, they don't hire that firm again. We're in a recession, there are LOTS of builders, they can afford to hire someone else.

    Seriously, you live in a world totally without social pressure for people to be decent to each other? Sucks to be you.
    Haha. If you remember one of my posts earlier, I said I will try and tell people I know, not to harass women. I would try and help a woman who's obviously being harassed. But you've forgotten that. And I am good to people in my environment as well. It's just that I have learnt what a harsh place this world is and I have learnt to MAN up and get on with life. Rather than ***** and moan on a website about it. And I'm sure there's still a lot more about life to learn about.

    In a perfect world, everyone would be decent to one another. No murder, no theft, no envy, no hatred. But welcome to the real world. Welcome to reality. It's not so much like that. And I learnt from that: to be tougher and stronger minded.

    Yes I am aware about things like in that at work or in companies. Thanks for stating the obvious. I was obviously talking about the outside environment where there are no company policies etc.

    If you support the anti-harassment group and it works, fair enough. I ain't got a problem with that. I was just giving my opinions like others so that other people will think more logically and come to better conclusions about the group and whether it's worth their time. And one of the main points of my posts as well is that, not everyone will care about the group. So what happens if you're in an environment, where no-one will intervene when you're "harassed (not violently/groped)?" Exactly my point. You need to learn to ignore them and move on with your life. So what if they're shouting or wolf-whistling? I know it's not nice for you but you're just gonna have to learn to deal with it. That's the point I've been trying to make.

    Forgive me for being a bit aggressive about it. But in this harsh world, you need to be a bit tougher and be able to get on with your life, even when they are some idiots around that think it's clever to shout at women who, like you, may find it offensive. Man up and move on with your life.
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    (Original post by foreveranon)
    No.

    Not if they're in business dress.

    Not if they're half-naked.

    Not if they're nude.

    Not if they're drunk.

    Not if they're unconscious.

    You have control of your body. You have control over whether you reach out and touch someone or not. Would you accept "I have a suit fetish, I couldn't control myself"? No.

    If someone TRULY cannot control themselves from touching, no matter what the provocation, they are either a small child or have the impulse control of one. And if the second, they are mentally ill and need to be treated as such.
    Of course, Captain Obvious. They are children/animals whatever you want to call them. Seriously, welcome to real world. These animals that grope any woman they see are free to roam about and do what they like. You must be naive if you don't know that those men have no morals at all and so, they feel no guilt in groping the women.

    Of course, it's wrong to grope women. But they're still out there, aren't they? And that why women should stop being naive/stupid and take some responsibility to dress up sensibly to reduce the chance of being groped by these animals?

    The women should take responsibility for themselves if they don't want to be abused and avoid getting drunk, half-naked, unnecessarily unconscious (from drugs, alcohol etc.) or nude in the presence of those animals.

    Now, do you get that or do I have to spell it out for you?
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    (Original post by Mancini)
    Lol are you surprised this is a feminist you were talking to they like to create arguements that fit the view even if the person who they arguing with does'nt hold that view forever anon did this a while back on the thread to me shes just likes to have a rant its as if she does'nt actually read what you wrote.

    Also she likes moving the goal posts she was complaining about 2 guys with less qualifications than her getting the job she wanted than when I told her this also happened to me with a woman with no qualifications she said well there could have been other reasons for you not getting the job.

    Well than why did she not consider that there could have been other reasons iver than her accusation of sexism that they got the job?
    Did she do that? If she did that, what a hypocrite like most modern feminists in general.
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    Let me give you guys on this thread a prediction.

    At some point in your life someone you love will be raped. Might be male or female. Might be a relative, a partner or a child. I tell you this, not because I wish it on you but because rape is so horrifyingly common. In 2006, one in every 200 women in the United Kingdom reported that she had been raped to the British Crime Survey. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_...United_Kingdom)

    Now, before someone tells me that half those women were evil and vengeful, I want you to consider the source. Not court cases. Not police records. The British Crime Survey, where no-one will know what you admit and no-one will ever know who you're accusing. This is in the UK, not some third world country. One in 200 women. In a year. Statistically, knowing one of them at some point is a certainty.

    And if you know them, you'll get to hear all the excuses people use to turn a victim into the guilty one.

    Dressed like that, she was asking for it. It doesn't matter what they were wearing, that's still used. Because rapists can't control themselves around someone who looks too sexy. Of course, "looks too sexy" can be jogging bottoms and a t-shirt to the wrong guy. Still, their fault. They should have known.

    They were asking for it/I thought they wanted it. Of course, they didn't ask, or if they did, they waited until their victims couldn't consent due to alcohol/drugs. (And before you blame the victim for the drink and drugs, I personally know someone who had her drink drugged at a works do. She was damn lucky one of her workmates saw the guy do it and took her home.

    It's not like they were a virgin... Because if you've ever had sex? You deserve what you get. Clearly you must now have sex with EVERYONE who wants it or you're being unfair.

    And you'll get to find out how much these phrases are embedded in the public consciousness, so much that, unless your loved one was a virgin wearing a black bag who screamed NONONONO throughout the attack (and WAS HEARD BY OTHERS) it won't even go to court. Because the CPS will weigh up the possibility that guys like you are in the jury, that guys like you'll argue that the guy couldn't possibly control himself and they won't take it that far. In 2006, the year mentioned above, less than 800 people were convicted of rape. How bad is that?

    If you truly think that dressing a certain way, sleeping with too many people or anything else removes a person's right to not be yelled at in the street, groped or raped then you have a problem. If you are unable to control your own behaviour to the point where you actually HAVE to yell at women dressed a certain way then get help. I'm utterly serious. Because it might be yelling now but who knows what you'll be incapable of preventing yourself doing tomorrow?

    If you believe that a great deal of people enjoy your street yelling then hey, you're students, do some research to back that up! You should know enough to cite your sources and there shouldn't be a one of you without journal access.

    If you're capable of stopping yourself from yelling at people in the street, can acknowledge that people may not enjoy it and still do it anyway? You're an ass. Which you have the right to be. But don't kid yourself that you're anything else.
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    I believe in the future we males are soon going to have to resort to asking woman to sign a legal document before sexual intercourse.

    We will also have to ask them to sign a legal document before offering them a drink.

    We may also have to ask them to sign a legal document if we have to physically touch them after saving them from that fierce fire breathing dragon putting them on a horse and riding of into the sunset.

    Sadly this is what romance will come to a set of legal documents that a man must get a woman to sign before any physical contact.

    You know all those romantic films you love so much people just imagine the man had to ask the lady to sign a document before any physical act.

    Just remember Will Smith in Hancock when he saves a female cop.

    Hancock: [to pinned-down cop] Good job! Do I have permission to touch your body?
    Female Cop: Yes!
    Hancock: It's not sexual. Not that you're not an attractive woman. You're actually a very attractive woman and...
    Female Cop: [screaming] Get me the hell out of here!

    This will no longer be just a scene in a movie this will be real life.
    Woman killed chivalry and soon they will kill love.

    By the way Hancock should have really asked her to sign a legal document before touching her, that lady might come back and bite him on the arse with a big lawsuit.
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    (Original post by Mancini)
    Lol are you surprised this is a feminist you were talking to they like to create arguements that fit the view even if the person who they arguing with does'nt hold that view forever anon did this a while back on the thread to me shes just likes to have a rant its as if she does'nt actually read what you wrote.

    Also she likes moving the goal posts she was complaining about 2 guys with less qualifications than her getting the job she wanted than when I told her this also happened to me with a woman with no qualifications she said well there could have been other reasons for you not getting the job.

    Well than why did she not consider that there could have been other reasons iver than her accusation of sexism that they got the job?
    What:confused: I've just read back through the thread, she said that when she asked for feedback, the interviewers struggled to give her any reasons.

    She then asked you if you asked for any feedback (a question that you haven't answered thus far) and said that if they couldn't give you a reason then you'd have a case, how is that moving the goalposts?
 
 
 
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