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    (Original post by Lewroll)

    Try not to think of this solely from your perspective, as someone who seems to be afraid of strangers. Think of it from the perspective of the average woman who goes out looking nice.
    Quick addition -- I'm not scared of strangers as such -- my partner is actually someone I met in public (while I was looking like crap, but we'll ignore that) who was brave enough to make a move.

    The difference was, he did so politely and quietly in a way that led to to think that, were I to refuse, there would be no problem whatsoever and no chance of becoming belligerent. I wasn't embarrassed, as I am if there is someone yelling at me in a public situation, I wasn't nervous, I was complimented and that was fine.

    There is a big difference between someone who approaches you and politely compliments you, and the one who yells sexual comments from across the street. The one is good attention, the other not so much.
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    (Original post by foreveranon)
    I'm working-class. Very working-class actually. Currently a mature student funding myself through the final year of university.

    I grew up in an area where, only a few years ago, there was a huge campaign against domestic abuse in relationships, because it is so common still that the zero tolerance message needed re-inforcing - that's feminism.

    I temped in a job where two women discussed loudly how one of them had a neighbour who was beaten up by her husband, and how embarrassed would they have been if it was them? Trying to correct that viewpoint? That's feminism.

    I worked in an industry where females are highly outnumbered by guys. I've been overlooked for promotion for two, less qualified, guys. I've been spoken to patronisingly where my colleagues weren't because a short female is a "girl" in the eyes of many middle-aged men, whereas a six foot male is definitely a man. I left that company, but before I did I did a lot of groundwork so the women coming after me might find it that bit easier. And that? Is feminism.

    And now I'm applying for jobs all over again. I leave my engagement ring off when I go to interviews because in a smaller company I've learnt that woman with engagement ring = marriage = pregnancy = oh no, maternity leave!

    My partner, in the same industry, tells recruiters intentionally that he's engaged because it convinces them he won't be after moving any time soon. For a man, marriage == stability.

    Now, working so my younger sisters don't experience that. Might that be feminism?



    My comment clearly wasnt aimed at a woman in your situation or a woman who gets abused by her boyfriend/husband dont see why you had to quote it maybe you just feel like having a rant maybe you just want someone to listen to your problems. Still I saw no point in you quoting me than commenting on it and how do you know those two guys who got promoted where underqualified compared to you are you just guessing ?also this doesnt make it feminist In one of my past jobs a girl was working there who had basicly no qualifications and me the male with the qualifications didnt get that job. Why do I know she did'nt have any? because she told me.

    Should I start moaning like you?

    Please if your gonna attempt to attack my words and quote me please make sure its justified and dont make silly attacks when my comments was not aimed at woman who are in a bad underprivileged situation as I have clearly stated in my comments its completely ludicrous of you.

    You keep telling me this and that is feminism I know what woman go through I know the true feminst issues I have not once in my last comment written it does'nt
    EXIST so If thats what you got from it you have issues.

    All I said was woman should'nt make out that they are the greater victim and forget about male issues because fact is theyre are not the greater victim males and females are both victim.However the sad truth is today in the present day you woman have it very good you have'nt just got rights you have more than that and still want more than that by the way this really only applies to western woman. You basicly want to have the cake and eat it.

    There are way more job opportunities out there for woman in todays society you modern woman are just moaners theres aways someone to blame for your issues infact thats why you have so much rights because unlike we man who just stay quiet when treated like crap you woman stand up and put a lable on everything as sexist/feminist. Maybe you should just look at yourself and ask am I upto the job?

    Before someone attacks me no this isnt aimed at all woman.

    You just sound like a woman who needs someone to hug and listen to you try get some counseling.
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    (Original post by Mancini)
    My comment clearly wasnt aimed at a woman in your situation or a woman who gets abused by her boyfriend/husband dont see why you had to quote it maybe you just feel like having a rant maybe you just want someone to listen to your problems. Still I saw no point in you quoting me than commenting on it and how do you know those two guys who got promoted where underqualified compared to you are you just guessing ?also this doesnt make it feminist In one of my past jobs a girl was working there who had basicly no qualifications and me the male with the qualifications didnt get that job. Why do I know she did'nt have any? because she told me.

    Should I start moaning like you?

    Please if your gonna attempt to attack my words and quote me please make sure its justified and dont make silly attacks when my comments was not aimed at woman who are in a bad underprivileged situation as I have clearly stated in my comments its completely ludicrous of you.

    You keep telling me this and that is feminism I know what woman go through I know the true feminst issues I have not once in my last comment written it does'nt
    EXIST so If thats what you got from it you have issues.

    All I said was woman should'nt make out that they are the greater victim and forget about male issues because fact is theyre are not the greater victim males and females are both victim.However the sad truth is today in the present day you woman have it very good you have'nt just got rights you have more than that and still want more than that by the way this really only applies to western woman. You basicly want to have the cake and eat it.

    There are way more job opportunities out there for woman in todays society you modern woman are just moaners theres aways someone to blame for your issues infact thats why you have so much rights because unlike we man who just stay quiet when treated like crap you woman stand up and put a lable on everything as sexist/feminist. Maybe you should just look at yourself and ask am I upto the job?

    Before someone attacks me no this isnt aimed at all woman.

    You just sound like a woman who needs someone to hug and listen to you try get some counseling.
    I'm being serious, and not trying to be rude when I say I want to respond to you but I'm struggling to navigate my way through your sentence structure to make out what you're actually saying. Could you maybe clarify, with less run-on sentences?
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    (Original post by Mancini)
    My comment clearly wasnt aimed at a woman in your situation or a woman who gets abused by her boyfriend/husband dont see why you had to quote it maybe you just feel like having a rant maybe you just want someone to listen to your problems. Still I saw no point in you quoting me than commenting on it and how do you know those two guys who got promoted where underqualified compared to you are you just guessing ?also this doesnt make it feminist In one of my past jobs a girl was working there who had basicly no qualifications and me the male with the qualifications didnt get that job. Why do I know she did'nt have any? because she told me.

    Should I start moaning like you?

    Please if your gonna attempt to attack my words and quote me please make sure its justified and dont make silly attacks when my comments was not aimed at woman who are in a bad underprivileged situation as I have clearly stated in my comments its completely ludicrous of you.

    You keep telling me this and that is feminism I know what woman go through I know the true feminst issues I have not once in my last comment written it does'nt
    EXIST so If thats what you got from it you have issues.

    All I said was woman should'nt make out that they are the greater victim and forget about male issues because fact is theyre are not the greater victim males and females are both victim.However the sad truth is today in the present day you woman have it very good you have'nt just got rights you have more than that and still want more than that by the way this really only applies to western woman. You basicly want to have the cake and eat it.

    There are way more job opportunities out there for woman in todays society you modern woman are just moaners theres aways someone to blame for your issues infact thats why you have so much rights because unlike we man who just stay quiet when treated like crap you woman stand up and put a lable on everything as sexist/feminist. Maybe you should just look at yourself and ask am I upto the job?

    Before someone attacks me no this isnt aimed at all woman.

    You just sound like a woman who needs someone to hug and listen to you try get some counseling.
    Spot on my brotha. You hit the nail BANG on the head! I would rep this comment if I hadn't repped you already. Well said. Whenever there's an obstacle in the way of getting their (sometimes selfish) desire, they claim it's feminism and blame men.
    Most modern feminists just throw their dummy out of the pram when they don't get everything they want.
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    (Original post by EggmanD)
    Back on topic, lewd comments and skirt chasing is a compliment not an insult even though it is perceived as the latter.
    It's not a compliment.
    What is defined as a compliment depends on the person receiving it. I might say "ugh facial tattoos are disgusting" but someone with a facial tattoo might take that as a compliment because it was their aim to be seen as freaky and non-conformist. Compliments express respect for people, shouting at strangers is not respectful, whatever the words out of your mouth are.

    You can't shout and scream at 14 year old girls walking to school in their school uniform (this has happened to me quite a lot between the ages of 13-17 because of the area I lived in) and claim that was some kind of compliment. It's quite obviously uninvited and publicly humiliating.

    The wording of 'protected persons' rather than 'all humans' implies some sort of abnormal status.. what happens if a few school children stare at a disabled child out of curiosity? What happens then? You might be able to dictate social change by supporting a 'protected person' where its illegal to shout at a women in the street or whatever but you cant stop infantile curiosity without segregating children and when they turn on the tele they will see the elephant man and be curious again!
    This has nothing to do with staring at someone, it's about shouting at them. Minors don't have criminal responsibility anyway, but say they were 18, staring isn't insulting someone, it's your own private thoughts in your head. Shouting something at them isn't private - it's public. Can you see the difference?

    A Muslim is offended by women showing skin, a racist is offended by people with different coloured skin, a vegan is offended by meat eaters, a rock fan is offended by hip hop, OAPs are offended by swearwords on tv, a conservative is offended by labour policies, a protester is offended by whatever they are protesting against, a homophobe is offended by a homosexual, a man city fan is offended by a man united fan..
    I am offended by skinny mustard yellow jeans and women wearing mens shoes..
    Again, all these things are private - if you feel disgusted by something that's not against the law.
    A muslim feeling disgusted by scantily-clad women is his own private thoughts, if he shouts abuse at them its a public insult.
    A racist feeling disgusted by coloured people is his own private thoughts, if he shouts racist abuse in the street it's an insult.
    A vegan feeling sick at meat eaters is his own private thought, if he shouts slurs at people in the street it's an insult.

    Can you see the difference?

    What im saying is, regardless of ridding the world of wrongs (racism, homophobia or whatever) there is no right not to be offended otherwise every single person in the world would be breaking the law
    Again - there's nothing illegal about being privately offended by something in your own head. But shouting at them in the street is.
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    (Original post by Antonia87)
    And what about the scores of women who dont dress suggestively and get it anyway? I mentioned in an earlier post that I was yelled at whilst wearing a trouser suit.

    How are blokes not getting this through their heads? ITS NOT ABOUT CLOTHING. IT HAPPENS REGARDLESS.
    Trouser suits are quite suggestive, to be fair.

    Alternatives... burqa might help lol - might be a bit of an overkill though.

    Btw, I was talking to Adonis recently - and even though I don't really like you (not a surprise), gotta say you're strikingly good looking. But you're still a massive **** lol.
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    Having tried to comb through your comment and pick out the relevant parts:


    (Original post by Mancini)
    My comment clearly wasnt aimed at a woman in your situation or a woman who gets abused by her boyfriend/husband dont see why you had to quote it maybe you just feel like having a rant maybe you just want someone to listen to your problems.
    Your comment was about feminism not existing, and where it did exist only existing for white well-off women. I wanted to show you that actually for women in the working class it could be both relevant and far more important. Sometimes about life and death even.

    (Original post by Mancini)
    how do you know those two guys who got promoted where underqualified compared to you are you just guessing ?
    We were on the same three year training scheme through the company, in classes with publicly available marks. I also asked for feedback on why I hadn't been offered the places, and the people doing the interviewing struggled to come up with reasons.

    It was incidentally a training scheme which took on around 40 people over three years of which I was the only female. Some industries really don't want women to come play.


    (Original post by Mancini)
    also this doesnt make it feminist In one of my past jobs a girl was working there who had basicly no qualifications and me the male with the qualifications didnt get that job. Why do I know she did'nt have any? because she told me.

    Should I start moaning like you?
    Did you ask for interview feedback as to why you didn't get it? If you did and the interviewer couldn't offer a good reason then yes, you would have reason to complain.

    (Original post by Mancini)
    Please if your gonna attempt to attack my words and quote me please make sure its justified and dont make silly attacks when my comments was not aimed at woman who are in a bad underprivileged situation as I have clearly stated in my comments its completely ludicrous of you.


    You keep telling me this and that is feminism I know what woman go through I know the true feminst issues I have not once in my last comment written it does'nt
    EXIST so If thats what you got from it you have issues.
    By the way feminism really only works for the richer middle to upper class caucasian woman who have had rights for so so long I mean this woman have the guts to actually compare the sufferings to that of slaves and ethnic minority groups while living a life of privilege its the biggest joke in the world how can a group be privileged and yet be a victim of society at the same time?

    That's what I got from your previous comment. I was trying to illustrate that actually feminism works for people out of that socio-economic group. If you weren't trying to say that those are the only people benefiting from feminism, I'm afraid you need to write more clearly.





    (Original post by Mancini)
    All I said was woman should'nt make out that they are the greater victim and forget about male issues because fact is theyre are not the greater victim males and females are both victim.However the sad truth is today in the present day you woman have it very good you have'nt just got rights you have more than that and still want more than that by the way this really only applies to western woman. You basicly want to have the cake and eat it.
    Okay, so now we're up from well-off women to all Western women, I think. And where men truly get treated unfairly, I will happily advocate for them. I would just like it if they could say the same about me.

    (Original post by Mancini)
    There are way more job opportunities out there for woman in todays society
    Firstly, please cite sources for that.

    Secondly, I don't want any job. I suck at the admin roles women often end up in, and I'd make a terrible teacher. I'm awesome in my own (male-dominated) industry though, and I would like to be recognised for that as though I have no boobs.

    Are you seriously claiming that women have a better chance in all industries? Would you be happy if, for instance, your beloved little sister went into bricklaying or would you worry for her?

    (Original post by Mancini)
    You just sound like a woman who needs someone to hug and listen to you try get some counseling.
    No thanks. I'm quite happy the way I am. Are you getting it for your anger issues?
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    (Original post by foreveranon)
    Firstly, thank you for your good manners, rather than yelling that I'm wrong. It is appreciated.

    Secondly, I'd like to ask you to read back through this thread, and this time look for the women's responses rather than the guys.

    I've seen a lot of women stating that this sort of attention makes them uncomfortable.

    I've seen some women stating that it doesn't bother them, or they ignore it.

    I've seen some stating that the best response is to yell back.

    What I haven't seen is many, if any at all, saying that they enjoy this attention. This would echo my observations from day to day life -- I don't actually know any women personally (and again, working class and at uni -- I've got friends a lot posher than me and friends some people might call chavs) who would say they enjoyed it.

    In that light, I would ask you to re-consider whether women, ANY women, ARE looking for this type of attention or whether that's just a common assumption by men? Or whether, if there are women looking for and enjoying that kind of attention, they might not be the anomaly rather than the ones who dislike it? And, if that is the case, whether it is morally correct to continue offering an attention which you know there is an over 50% chance that the person in question will either actively dislike or just ignore?
    The women are looking for attention though. That was my point. Just because it didn't come from where they wanted it, doesn't mean it wont come.

    I don't think calling out to someone in the street is harassment. Annoying. But not harassment. And as I said it is very rare that it will be any more than a comment. The best thing to do is ignore them. Which is why groups like this seem unnecessary. If a woman is getting problems in the street the best place to go is to the police, not to a feminist website.
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    (Original post by DJkG.1)
    Trouser suits are quite suggestive, to be fair.

    Alternatives... burqa might help lol - might be a bit of an overkill though.

    Btw, I was talking to Adonis recently - and even though I don't really like you (not a surprise), gotta say you're strikingly good looking. But you're still a massive **** lol.
    .... erm, what? Why are you being so rude to me? Why are you calling me names?

    How unnecessarily nasty.
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    (Original post by foreveranon)
    We were on the same three year training scheme through the company, in classes with publicly available marks. I also asked for feedback on why I hadn't been offered the places, and the people doing the interviewing struggled to come up with reasons.
    in fairness there are lots of qualities that people look for when hiring that are not exactly tangible.

    Your personality and general presence can play a huge part, but are they meant to tell you that they just didn't like you. I doubt you would have accepted that.

    there's also the risk of women getting pregnant and the interference that would cause. I mean you've got the maternity leave, and then when the child is born it's invariably a distraction.
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    (Original post by Lewroll)
    The women are looking for attention though. That was my point. Just because it didn't come from where they wanted it, doesn't mean it wont come.

    I don't think calling out to someone in the street is harassment. Annoying. But not harassment. And as I said it is very rare that it will be any more than a comment. The best thing to do is ignore them. Which is why groups like this seem unnecessary. If a woman is getting problems in the street the best place to go is to the police, not to a feminist website.
    That's easier said than done though. If you're in the street and feeling threatened, the police are unlikely to be conveniently right there. You could walk to the nearest police station, but that might be through an even more isolated area or some distance away. You could phone for help, but that's a local station call not 999 and presuming you have the number the response time still sucks. You could report it after the event, but how do you prove it?
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    (Original post by Lewroll)
    The women are looking for attention though. That was my point. Just because it didn't come from where they wanted it, doesn't mean it wont come.

    I don't think calling out to someone in the street is harassment. Annoying. But not harassment. And as I said it is very rare that it will be any more than a comment. The best thing to do is ignore them. Which is why groups like this seem unnecessary. If a woman is getting problems in the street the best place to go is to the police, not to a feminist website.
    Just because the attention didn't come from a hot looking guy in a "nice" way, it becomes "harassment" from "creeps" and this gets called feminism. What a joke. Harassment should be reported to the police. But instead of doing that, you feminists do what you do best: ***** and moan about it. Why don't you just man up, ignore it and move on with your life? If you can't, then go and waste the police's time and report it them. And spare us the pain of listening to you whining on and on about everything you don't like:blah:
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    (Original post by Drumzilla)
    in fairness there are lots of qualities that people look for when hiring that are not exactly tangible.

    Your personality and general presence can play a huge part, but are they meant to tell you that they just didn't like you. I doubt you would have accepted that.
    It can. However, this has been studied, and one of those intangibles is that people hire people who "look like them". White middle-aged guys hire white guys because they'll "fit in with the department" and well, that's who's always worked there.

    That particular company was also engaging in some highly dodgy practices at the time, including making the only female senior director redundant and then re-advertising her role a month later. I saw my department shrink from a third female to barely an eighth before I left. I wasn't the only one picking up the hiring practices and making tracks.

    It was a major multinational company, which I'm not naming as it would be recognised. They have HR practices which mean they should be justifying promotions pretty firmly. Those practices just started being ignored.


    (Original post by Drumzilla)
    there's also the risk of women getting pregnant and the interference that would cause. I mean you've got the maternity leave, and then when the child is born it's invariably a distraction.
    A) I wasn't married, or even dating at that time. Why should I be considered more a risk than my male colleagues (one of whom was in a serious relationship) just because I have ovaries? Wouldn't they be distracted by a child? What if the child was sick? What if they ended up a lone parent?

    B) ...and if they had so much as whispered that I would cheerfully have sued them into next week, because taking that into consideration is illegal.
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    (Original post by foreveranon)
    That's easier said than done though. If you're in the street and feeling threatened, the police are unlikely to be conveniently right there. You could walk to the nearest police station, but that might be through an even more isolated area or some distance away. You could phone for help, but that's a local station call not 999 and presuming you have the number the response time still sucks. You could report it after the event, but how do you prove it?
    The issue is probably the hassle involved as well. If you've been minding your own business and are accosted groped etc, it's not like it's going to be your fault. So one may feel, "Why should I ruin my evening going to the hassle of calling the police, waiting for them to turn up etc for something that wasn't my fault"

    The creation of a valid group could increase social pressure making the police more aware of and ready to act on such behaviour though imo.
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    (Original post by foreveranon)
    That's easier said than done though. If you're in the street and feeling threatened, the police are unlikely to be conveniently right there. You could walk to the nearest police station, but that might be through an even more isolated area or some distance away. You could phone for help, but that's a local station call not 999 and presuming you have the number the response time still sucks. You could report it after the event, but how do you prove it?
    So what do you expect the government and police to do about to prevent the "harassment" eh? Put CCTV cameras on the four corners of the Earth, on every inch of ground and remove our freedom & privacy? Give each "offender" life-time imprisonment?

    I bet this will still not be enough for you feminists because there'll always be something else to moan about:blah:
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    (Original post by Cable)
    So what do you expect the government and police to do about to prevent the "harassment" eh? Put CCTV cameras on the four corners of the Earth, on every inch of ground and remove our freedom & privacy? Give each "offender" life-time imprisonment?

    I bet this will still not be enough for you feminists because there'll always be something else to moan about:blah:
    Actually, I would take it as a good start if you guys could manage a "People who purposely make other people uncomfortable by behaving in an unwanted lewd fashion towards them are wrong. I won't do it, I will prevent my friends from doing it, and if I see someone (male or female) who seems to be uncomfortable or upset by unwanted attention I will consider stepping in". No government intervention required.

    I can live by the above. Can you?
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    (Original post by Berbalicious)
    The issue is probably the hassle involved as well. If you've been minding your own business and are accosted groped etc, it's not like it's going to be your fault. So one may feel, "Why should I ruin my evening going to the hassle of calling the police, waiting for them to turn up etc for something that wasn't my fault"

    The creation of a valid group could increase social pressure making the police more aware of and ready to act on such behaviour though imo.
    Or even just more patrols around problem areas. (Which, as such areas are frequently nightspots known for muggings and more serious sexual crimes might well also help with those.)
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    (Original post by foreveranon)
    Actually, I would take it as a good start if you guys could manage a "People who purposely make other people uncomfortable by behaving in an unwanted lewd fashion towards them are wrong. I won't do it, I will prevent my friends from doing it, and if I see someone (male or female) who seems to be uncomfortable or upset by unwanted attention I will consider stepping in". No government intervention required.

    I can live by the above. Can you?
    I haven't got a problem with that. But why do we men have to step in? According to you feminists, you females are equal with us. So why can't women step in as well? Why is it only men that should step in?

    And don't be naive in thinking every man on this planet gives a damn about your "dilemmas". There are more important things in life to worry about than men shouting across the road "Alright darling!" But you feminists can't just grow a pair (not literally of course) and get on with your life. Why can't you focus on more important things in your life and stop wasting our time with such trivial matters (in comparison to global issues)?

    Also, what if the woman doesn't show any sign of being "uncomfortable" or "upset"? What if the girl actually likes the attention? Not every girl is like you and hates men wolf-whistling at them. And everyone knows that "unwanted attention" generally means getting attention from a guy who's not hot/cute/good looking.

    Like I said, grow a pair.
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    (Original post by foreveranon)
    Or even just more patrols around problem areas. (Which, as such areas are frequently nightspots known for muggings and more serious sexual crimes might well also help with those.)
    To be fair, I don't disagree with this. But according to you feminists, these "harassments" can even take place during the day. When guys in vans are just merely shouting "Alright darling" or wolf-whistling. So where will the police be then to rescue you from the terrible "harassment"? Or you could just ignore them and move on with your life.
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    (Original post by Cable)
    I haven't got a problem with that. But why do we men have to step in? According to you feminists, you females are equal with us. So why can't women step in as well? Why is it only men that should step in?

    Where did I say that only guys SHOULD step in? I've stepped in before. I've asked someone to back off a woman because she was very clearly upset by the attention. I've also pulled aside a male colleague who was being hit on by a male workmate despite indicating he didn't enjoy the attention and asked if he was okay. Sometimes a "Hey, are you okay, is X bothering you?" is all that's needed. If more is needed.. well, now there's two of us.
 
 
 
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