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    Hmm, my posts have been ignored.
    Maybe because I proved (with SO much evidence, as has good bloke) that all countries that allow ANYONE to own firearms have much higher violent crime rates, especially those relating to guns.
    I've explained how letting anyone have them will make the streets more dangerous, because it's exactly what happens elsewhere.

    It doesn't matter if you want it for self-defense, because if you can have it for self-defense so can idiots and thugs who then use it to mug someone.
    Plus, as soon as guns are made that readily available in a country, and it's ok to carry them, it's SO easy for illegal guns to be distributed to the criminals who wouldn't be allowed them legally.

    The cons outweigh the pros for over all society.
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    (Original post by GwrxVurfer)
    Drewski, I want a gun for self-defence, and I would undergo tests to prove competency in handling each type of gun I wanted. The only people who would have any reason to fear being shot are those who want to cause me life-threatening harm. I don't think you would want to cause me life-threatening harm, so I really don't understand why you would be so scared?

    I genuinely would like you to answer that, because I just don't understand your hoplophobia at all.
    But by the same token, why do you feel you need it for self defence? Where are all those people wishing to cause you life-threatening harm? How often have you encountered such things? I've lived all across the country - and in some fairly dodgy places abroad - in places which are commonly regarded as 'dangerous' [I lived in deepest, darkest Salford for 4yrs while at uni], I never once felt threatened, let alone threatened enough to wish I had some form of weapon on my person.

    I'm not scared. I just don't want lots of weapons freely available to the wider public. While I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever that a great many of the population would be responsible and safe with them [no doubt including yourself], it is those who wouldn't be that I don't want with them. We see it with car drivers [and I appreciate this is a rough analogy], that people follow all the rules properly to pass the test, but then don't get insurance, don't follow the rules, drive dangerously and don't get caught and stopped.... I don't have enough faith in the public to believe that the same thing wouldn't happen with guns, which is why I don't want them out there, as inconvenient as that might be to the law-abiding majority.
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    (Original post by GwrxVurfer)
    Because I accept that at some point in my life, I might need a firearm to defend myself.




    So do you object to the principle of carrying defensive weapons in general, or just guns?

    The reason I ask is because I now want your view on less-lethal defensive weapons - Tasers, batons, pepper spray etc.
    Pepper spray, etc is better. It can still be used wrongly, but they are a hell of a lot safer and NOT lethal than guns.
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    (Original post by GwrxVurfer)
    Because I accept that at some point in my life, I might need a firearm to defend myself.

    So do you object to the principle of carrying defensive weapons in general, or just guns?

    The reason I ask is because I now want your view on less-lethal defensive weapons - Tasers, batons, pepper spray etc.
    Is that one-off reason justificatio enough though? There are, as you rightly say, non-lethal defensive weapons which would work just as effectively to disarm a would-be attacker.

    And no, this is purely about guns, I'd have absolutely no issue with tasers, mace, etc.
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    (Original post by Emaemmaemily)
    Hmm, my posts have been ignored.
    Maybe because I proved (with SO much evidence, as has good bloke) that all countries that allow ANYONE to own firearms have much higher violent crime rates, especially those relating to guns.
    I've explained how letting anyone have them will make the streets more dangerous, because it's exactly what happens elsewhere.

    It doesn't matter if you want it for self-defense, because if you can have it for self-defense so can idiots and thugs who then use it to mug someone.
    Plus, as soon as guns are made that readily available in a country, and it's ok to carry them, it's SO easy for illegal guns to be distributed to the criminals who wouldn't be allowed them legally.

    The cons outweigh the pros for over all society.
    No they don't as I've already explained with the genocide stats. Thats not the point though, the point is that I'm a libertarian and first and foremost people should have the freedom to own what they want whether other people misuse it or not. Its the difference between an authoritarian state and a free state.
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    (Original post by Drewski)
    And no, this is purely about guns, I'd have absolutely no issue with tasers, mace, etc.
    Great, but as you can see our authoritarian government doesn't trust us with those either.
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    (Original post by Hardballer)
    I downright refuse to take gun suicides into account, even if it wasn't for the fact they have legal suicide clinics down there in Switzerland. If someone really really wants to commit suicide they'll go to the highest building and throw themselves off
    I tend to agree, but that leaves you needing to explain away the high Swiss homicide and accidental death rates from guns. And GwrxVurfer still has to explain why he again brought up the lie of low Swiss death rates from guns.
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    (Original post by Hardballer)
    No they don't as I've already explained with the genocide stats. Thats not the point though, the point is that I'm a libertarian and first and foremost people should have the freedom to own what they want whether other people misuse it or not. Its the difference between an authoritarian state and a free state.
    And again, genocide doesn't happen in the UK, and won't. The fact that there's a remote chance this could happen sometime isn't a good enough excuse to make our country more dangerous to live in, make the murder rate go up, etc. That's not a fair trade off.

    But I guess we just disagree with our views. People shouldn't be free to "do as they please", because it's dangerous. With the type of society we are currently in, we can't trust the public with guns, end of. It would make the country more dangerous, make more innocent people die, etc. To me, people's right to live and be safe is more important than your right to own a fire arm just because you want the right. You don't need it.
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    (Original post by GwrxVurfer)
    Well, I'd also like a gun to go to firing ranges with every so often.
    This is already allowed. You can own guns for sport.
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    (Original post by Emaemmaemily)
    To me, people's right to live and be safe is more important than your right to own a fire arm just because you want the right. You don't need it.
    what do you mean peoples right to be safe? so tell me what gaurantees our safety in this country? is it the cops who turn up after the murder? or useless cctv? me being able to defend myself prior to that would be my idea of being safe
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    (Original post by Emaemmaemily)
    This is already allowed. You can own guns for sport.
    not all guns though, actually very few since 1988 knee jerk reaction. bolt action, lever action rifles, shotguns, muzzle loading handguns and not much more
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    (Original post by Hardballer)
    what do you mean peoples right to be safe? so tell me what gaurantees our safety in this country? is it the cops who turn up after the murder? or useless cctv? me being able to defend myself prior to that would be my idea of being safe
    I've proven that a society without guns on the streets is safer by the numerous links and statistics I've given. You can defend yourself now, just not with a gun, and it won't be against a gun either... More chance to escape.
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    (Original post by Emaemmaemily)
    defend yourself now, just not with a gun, and it won't be against a gun either.
    Well damn you sound very sure of that, so theres 0% chance of being attacked with a gun in our society? absolutely 0%! I think it depends where you live and the 2 people shot in the news article in the opening post weren't so lucky
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    (Original post by Hardballer)
    Well damn you sound very sure of that, so theres 0% chance of being attacked with a gun in our society? absolutely 0%! I think it depends where you live and the 2 people shot in the news article in the opening post weren't so lucky
    Oh yes, there is a TINY chance. That doesn't justify allowing us to have guns, because allowing them will make us MORE likely to be shot and killed, as my evidence has shown.
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    (Original post by GwrxVurfer)
    Your claim is the one that has been exposed as a lie. Good Bloke, the obligation is on you to explain why you continue to spout the debunked claim that there is high gun-related murders in Switzerland.
    ...

    I will not be engaging Good Blokes' hysterics-driven argument any longer.
    I'm not surprised - you can't. I already provided, a few posts back, several links to support my claim that Swiss non-suicide gun-related deaths are about treble those in England & Wales. Why do you claim these statistics are a lie? Have you anything different?
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    (Original post by GwrxVurfer)
    Umm......why? :confused:


    Stop making the false claim that you have shown evidence! You haven't. As you've previously been shown, civilian gun ownership reduces crime. Therefore other posters would be wise to question the legitimacy of your "statistics".
    erm, no. My evidence has shown civilian gun ownership RISES crime. ALL of my statistics have shown this. What planet are you on?!
    I have shown a variety of sources from different government statistics and laws... It's all fact.
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    (Original post by GwrxVurfer)
    You can rant all you like Good Bloke. Your attempts to mislead other users with inaccurate information lost you any credibility you had left in this thread.

    I'm not going be engaging your hysterics-driven argument. I have no time for people who try to derail threads when they don't get their way.
    :toofunny: You can keep repeating that but the only person you are convincing is yourself, and possibly Hardballer who seems to be on the same planet as you.
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    (Original post by Emaemmaemily)
    What planet are you on?!
    Not this one, that is for sure. I think GwrxVurfer, in particular, has proved himself to be trolling. This is the end of the discussion for me.
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    (Original post by GwrxVurfer)
    Of course, because the Government always tell the truth.


    And she says that I'm on another planet :rolleyes:
    Well I meant several statistics from different governments. You think they're giving completely false crime statistics? I think not.
    You have given nothing to prove all of my sources wrong.
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    (Original post by Good bloke)
    :toofunny: You can keep repeating that but the only person you are convincing is yourself, and possibly Hardballer who seems to be on the same planet as you.
    Thats another reason for owning a gun! self defense from aliens. oh you think I'm joking don't you? well we aint the only lifeforms out there and when we finally do get visitors I'm gonna want a deterrant if they aint so friendly
 
 
 
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