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For all you anti gun hoplophobes on here watch

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    (Original post by Tesphena)
    He can if its been de-activated.
    thats not a gun its a gun shaped lump of metal, and its an awful act of vandalism, destroying a perfectly functioning gun. How are you meant to observe and admire the eternal working parts and mechanics if they've all been welded up. Just no.
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    (Original post by Emaemmaemily)
    I've shot them many times and lived in the USA!
    so did bill brady and and he's still a gun grabbing authoritarian. Plenty of other countries enjoy high gun ownership and low crime, switzerland, finland, cyprus, france, norway, austria. Just about every one of these countries have private handgun ownership and austria lets you buy shotguns without registration. I don't think any of these countries have an overall higher murder rate than us.
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    (Original post by Tesphena)
    He can if its been de-activated.



    The young woman should pack mace instead.



    Shooting someone on your property would surely constitute using unreasonable force and you would be arrested.



    Because survivalists are very sensible people. The Branch Davidians were awesome.



    Should Muslim women also be allowed to kill homosexuals and magicians?
    (Original post by WeekendOffender)
    I can't believe you are all still arguing about this. It's good to have a healthy debate once in a while but this debate is not healthy. It's been repetitive, obnoxious and pointless for weeks now.

    And I also can't believe Selkarn is still repeating himself.
    (Original post by Good bloke)
    I can. He probably thinks that multiple repetitions will change people's minds.

    I'm leaving this thread now.
    (Original post by Emaemmaemily)
    You've said this before, and I've answered before. It's the same almost word for word, well done. Look back a few pages.




    I haven't given boxes, I've given firgures and links to back them up. Stop lieing!

    Stop calling my a hoplophobe because it's beginning to grate on my nerves. I'm not scared of guns. I've shot them many times and lived in the USA! How about you just stick to answering my questions instead of name calling?

    If someone wants to kill me and guns are allowed here, they will use a gun (most probably). Look at every other country that allows guns... Their high violent crime rates, their high deaths related to guns rates... They prove your argument COMPLETELY wrong!

    zzz pointless debate - hoplophobes are never going to allow gun owners a little more freedom. All in all it simply comes down to the individual's trade off between safety and utility/freedom. It's just a big sliding scale where fundamental differences of opinion cannot be reconciled. For example some people out there would propose..

    1) allowing people to buy/use chemical weapons, they're dangerous but they provide utility to the owner/user/society
    2) allowing people to buy/use explosives and handgrenades, they're dangerous but they provide utility to the owner/user
    3) allowing people to buy/use machine guns, they're dangerous but they provide utility to the owner/user/society
    4) allowing people to buy/use handguns, they're dangerous but they provide utility to the owner/user/society
    5) allowing people to buy/use swords, they're dangerous but they provide utility to the owner/user/society
    6) allowing people to buy/use kitchen knives, they're dangerous but they provide utility to the owner/user/society
    7) allowing people to buy/use cars, they're dangerous but they provide utility to the owner/user/society
    8) allowing people to buy/use buses and trains, they're dangerous but they provide utility to the owner/user/society
    9) allowing people to buy/use plastic shopping bags, they're dangerous but they provide utility to the owner/user/society
    10) allowing people to buy/use pens and pencils, they're dangerous but they provide utility to the owner/user/society

    You could go on forever, for an infinite amount of objects.. some things are obviously far more dangerous than the utility/usefulness they provide, whilst some things are obviously of huge usefulness, even if in very very rare cases they can be dangerous.
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    (Original post by Selkarn)
    India is well known for it's authoritarian gun laws.
    yup, yet its still possible for a civilian to legally acquire a handgun or semi automatic rifle over there.
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    (Original post by Selkarn)
    You could go on forever, for an infinite amount of objects.. some things are obviously far more dangerous than the utility/usefulness they provide, whilst some things are obviously of huge usefulness, even if in very very rare cases they can be dangerous.
    Yeah, and you use statistics to determine which things are simply too dangerous. Statistics are important. You have none.
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    (Original post by Hardballer)
    so did bill brady and and he's still a gun grabbing authoritarian. Plenty of other countries enjoy high gun ownership and low crime, switzerland, finland, cyprus, france, norway, austria. Just about every one of these countries have private handgun ownership and austria lets you buy shotguns without registration. I don't think any of these countries have an overall higher murder rate than us.
    Are you kidding me? I've already proven to you that Switzerland have a higher murder rate than us... Finland = 0.028 per capita, France 0.017, UK = 0.014. Couldn't find Austria.
    The only ones lower that you mentioned were cyprus and norway.
    In Norway they aren't allowed guns for self defense, it's for hunting and sport, which is allowed here, they also have very strict rules on storage and are not allowed to carry them on their person in public.
    ^ Essentially, there's not a huge difference in their laws to ours, except they allow hand guns (but with the same rules about not for self defense, etc).

    So... Cyprus? A population of 1 million people... Hardly comparable both in numbers, and in social aspects.
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    (Original post by Emaemmaemily)
    Are you kidding me? I've already proven to you that Switzerland have a higher murder rate than us... Finland = 0.028 per capita, France 0.017, UK = 0.014. Couldn't find Austria.
    The only ones lower that you mentioned were cyprus and norway.
    In Norway they aren't allowed guns for self defense, it's for hunting and sport, which is allowed here, they also have very strict rules on storage and are not allowed to carry them on their person in public.
    ^ Essentially, there's not a huge difference in their laws to ours, except they allow hand guns (but with the same rules about not for self defense, etc).

    So... Cyprus? A population of 1 million people... Hardly comparable both in numbers, and in social aspects.
    well finland and norway only have 5 million so whats your point? hows it not comparable in social aspects? they have around the same income as us in cyprus, actually slightly less on average, I'm confused to what you mean. and your stats are wrong

    United Kingdom: 0.0140633 per 1,000 people
    Switzerland: 0.00921351 per 1,000 people

    http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cr...ers-per-capita
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    (Original post by Hardballer)
    well finland and norway only have 5 million so whats your point? hows it not comparable in social aspects? they have around the same income as us in cyprus, actually slightly less on average, I'm confused to what you mean. and your stats are wrong

    United Kingdom: 0.0140633 per 1,000 people
    Switzerland: 0.00921351 per 1,000 people

    http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cr...ers-per-capita
    I got my Switzerland statistics from their government sources, I cited the source a while back so you can check it if you like...
    Well Finland and Norway also are hard to compare because their societies are VERY different to ours, as well as the numbers. It's not about income at all, it's about how their society is run and their ideals (which are extremely different in general, the country is nothing like us).
    That's why it makes things a bit shakey to compare... But either way, my point that actually almost all of the countries you mentioned have MORE murders than us is still valid.

    Also, just realised. My stats on Switzerland before were on violent crime in general as well as violent crime involving a gun, not just murders. So including things like rape, muggings and attacks that don't necessarily completely kills someone (which is very much part of this debate), Switzerland is a lot worse.
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    (Original post by Hardballer)
    United Kingdom: 0.0140633 per 1,000 people
    Switzerland: 0.00921351 per 1,000 people

    http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cr...ers-per-capita
    You have quoted murder rates, which is just a tad misleading. Surely a more relevant figure would be gun homicides, which are three times higher in Switzerland, or accidental gun deaths, which are also three times higher?
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    (Original post by GwrxVurfer)

    Switzerland is a country where the law pretty much mandates that every citizen keeps a service rifle at home. And yet, gun-related crime over there is incredibly low.
    Compared to the USA, maybe. Gun-related homicides in Switzerland are treble those in England and Wales.
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    (Original post by GwrxVurfer)
    First of all, calm down. I have not lied, and the proof is here for all users to see. You have provided what you call "statistics". I had already proven that higher gun ownership results in less gun-related murders due to the deterrence. Therefore your so-called "statistics" would raise suspicion amongst your anti-firearm friends.



    You are hoplophobic. You have this, frankly alarming, irrational fear of firearms. You appear to be convinced that if guns were re-legalized then everyone with a gun would be out to "get you". Common sense dictates that a would-be murderer would use a cheap knife (already legal) as opposed to an expensive gun, as they would need to permanently destroy the murder weapon afterwards to prevent forensic examination.

    Why are you so paranoid?



    No they don't. This is to be expected from people like Emae. Once their flawed logic has been exposed, they resort to outright lies.

    Switzerland is a country where the law pretty much mandates that every citizen keeps a service rifle at home. And yet, gun-related crime over there is incredibly low.

    Oh wait, let me guess - "We're not counting Switzerland", or indeed anything else that exposes the fundamental flaws in your hoplophobic argument.


    By the way - Hows your "I'm leaving the thread because I can't be bothered arguing with you" going?
    You haven't proved that more guns reduces crime, because I provided plenty of stats (from difference sources, which I cited) that showed countries with looser gun laws almost all had higher violent crime rates. That is a fact.

    I am not a hoplophobe, for christ's sake stop calling me that because you're pissing me off. Can't you debate without calling names? Can't you just discuss facts like I have been?
    I am NOT SCARED OF GUNS!!! I used to use them regularly. So shut up.
    I'm not convinced people will "get me", I've never said that. It's not about me personally, it's about society as a whole. I've proven that if we had looser guns laws there would be more gun crime and more innocent deaths, because ALL of the stats prove it!

    How are all of the stats I provided lies? They're from nationmaster, wikipedia, and some government sources... They aren't lies. i didn't make them up, I GAVE THE SOURCE. Stop calling me a liar because you're really pissing me off.
    Switzerland's gun crime rate is NOT low, because I proved that earlier too. Their violent crime rate is also higher. So yes, it counts... Towards my argument.

    I was going to leave, yes... And I am considering it again because you are infuriating. All I've done is give several sources of information showing higher violent crime rates in countries that allow guns more loosly... The only argument you have is "you are a liar" instead of giving me some other sources to counter my argument? Pathetic.
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    (Original post by Good bloke)
    Compared to the USA, maybe. Gun-related homicides in Switzerland are treble those in England and Wales.
    thank god you are here... I am nearly pulling my hair out!
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    (Original post by Emaemmaemily)
    thank god you are here... I am nearly pulling my hair out!
    I'm not staying. I am unwatching the thread and I suggest you do the same.
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    (Original post by Good bloke)
    I'm not staying. I am unwatching the thread and I suggest you do the same.
    Yeah, it's pretty hard to believe sometimes :/
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    (Original post by GwrxVurfer)
    By the way - Hows your "I'm leaving the thread because I can't be bothered arguing with you" going?
    :rofl: more like "my authoritarian views have been exposed, therefore I'm going to slink off ashamedly"..

    (Original post by Emaemmaemily)
    Yeah, it's pretty hard to believe sometimes :/
    (Original post by Good bloke)
    I'm not staying. I am unwatching the thread and I suggest you do the same.
    On their side, we have:

    Adolf Hitler
    Castro
    Gaddafi
    Stalin
    Idi Amin
    Mao Zedong
    Pol Pot
    Kim Jong-Il
    Criminals

    On our side, we have:

    Gandhi
    Orwell
    Dalai Lama
    Washington, Jefferson, Hamilton, Madison


    All in all, there's no need to get so angry about it, we're just proposing giving people a little more freedom when it comes to what they want to spend their money on. You take a more authoritarian stance in this matter, we take a more liberal stance. No big deal. There's clearly no changing your opinion so it's pointless discussing it with you.
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    (Original post by Selkarn)
    :rofl: more like "my authoritarian views have been exposed, therefore I'm going to slink off ashamedly"..





    all, there's no need to get so angry about it, we're just proposing giving people a little more freedom when it comes to what they want to spend their money on. You take a more authoritarian stance in this matter, we take a more liberal stance. No big deal. There's clearly no changing your opinion so it's pointless discussing it with you.
    No... I've proven and given my points a thousand times. I'm not "skulking off"... I just give up, you're ignoring the evidence.
    I'm not angry that we both have very different views, neither of us will change... I'm angry that you keep ignoring the evidence I give. By all means, you can still disagree, but don't ignore the evidence.

    Stop repeating that stupid list.
    I. Give. Up. There's no debating with some people.
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    (Original post by Emaemmaemily)
    No... I've proven and given my points a thousand times. I'm not "skulking off"... I just give up, you're ignoring the evidence.
    I'm not angry that we both have very different views, neither of us will change... I'm angry that you keep ignoring the evidence I give. By all means, you can still disagree, but don't ignore the evidence.

    Stop repeating that stupid list.
    I. Give. Up. There's no debating with some people.
    If, by evidence, you mean statistical evidence, then you are wrong, for I do not believe we have discussed any form of mathematical argument. I am well aware that if you give an AK47 to every single person in the country, gun crime will increase. I am equally aware that if you completely ban every single firearm, gun crime would fall. I am also aware that if you completely banned knives, knife crime would also fall. You cannot simply talk about numbers when the issue is liberty and freedom.

    As for the emboldened part - indeed. But, as the thread title suggests, this is a thread for hoplophobes. In the other thread I made about guns here, it's refreshing to see that, based on the small number of people who have so far posted, your opinion is not shared, and most people prefer a liberal, anti-authoritarian stance on the matter.
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    (Original post by Selkarn)
    If, by evidence, you mean statistical evidence, then you are wrong, for I do not believe we have discussed any form of mathematical argument. I am well aware that if you give an AK47 to every single person in the country, gun crime will increase. I am equally aware that if you completely ban every single firearm, gun crime would fall. I am also aware that if you completely banned knives, knife crime would also fall. You cannot simply talk about numbers when the issue is liberty and freedom.

    As for the emboldened part - indeed. But, as the thread title suggests, this is a thread for hoplophobes. In the other thread I made about guns here, it's refreshing to see that, based on the small number of people who have so far posted, your opinion is not shared, and most people prefer a liberal, anti-authoritarian stance on the matter.
    Nearly no-one in that thread agrees with you. :rolleyes:
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    The handgun ban was one of the most knee-jerk pieces of populist legislating I've seen in my lifetime.
    I fully support the right of sane, non-criminals who wish to use guns for sport or agricultural whatevery to have them, but I'd rather not bulk those numbers out too much.
    I completely disagree with banning guns outright, but I do believe that the system we have for rifles and shotguns is ideal and should be mimicked for pistols.
    I love it when people can only see what they want to see..
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    (Original post by Selkarn)
    I love it when people can only see what they want to see..
    While I'm not really contributing to this thread (merely watching) three people out of the number of posters in a 45 page thread likely counts towards 'Nearly no-one'. Not to mention they refer to handgun control being too strict, rather than adopting your viewpoint entirely. Poster #2 and Poster #3 also seem to be fans of gun control with Poster #2 not wanting to bulk out numbers of guns and Poster #3 wanting pistols to be regulated as much as rifles and shotguns. Poster #1 I can't decipher, he condemns the handgun ban legislation as knee-jerk but doesn't offer alternatives so I'm not too certain in regards to his full viewpoint so he may fully support you.
 
 
 
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