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Spanish Crown Prince stirs things up with Big Ears over the Rock watch

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    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...-of-Wales.html
    Spain's Crown Prince Felipe has told the Prince of Wales that a solution must be found for Gibraltar, stirring age old diplomatic tensions between the two nations.
    Spain still claims sovereignty over the Rock, home to 28,000 Gibraltarians, who in a 2002 referendum overwhelmingly rejected a deal to shared sovereignty between the two nations and demanded to remain a part of Britain.
    His decision to raise the issue was applauded by some politicians and one said it was a comment on the Socialist government's failure to address the problem.
    "It's regrettable that it is left to the Prince to do the work of the government," said Rosa Diez, leader of the Union, Progress and Democracy party (UPyD).
    The issue has dominated coverage of a visit aimed at strengthening ties between the two countries with one Spanish newspaper, the right wing daily La Razon, using the headline "Gibraltar, Spanish" on its front page.
    What do you guys think? Is it a imperial leftover that should be returned to the Spanish, or do we respect with wishes the the Gibraltans and keep the island.
    Will the Spanish ever give it a rest? I think the Gibraltar issue is a good distraction for them from there fooked economy
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    (Original post by Renner)
    What do you guys think? Is it a imperial leftover that should be returned to the Spanish, or do we respect with wishes the the Gibraltans and keep the island.
    Will the Spanish ever give it a rest? I think the Gibraltar issue is a good distraction for them from there fooked economy
    We should do a deal with them. They can have Gibraltar if they give Ceuta and Melilla to Morocco.
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    Gibraltar is British, and has expressed its desire to remain so a repeated number of occasions in referendums. Spain can go swivel.
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    If Gibraltar itself wanted to become Spanish then sure, but seeing as they want to remain with the United Kingdom then surely they should be able to that?
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    To be honest it doesn't really matter. They can whine all they like but in the end we will still have Gibraltar regardless. Not like they will win if they try to take it by force either.
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    (Original post by Renner)
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...-of-Wales.html



    What do you guys think? Is it a imperial leftover that should be returned to the Spanish, or do we respect with wishes the the Gibraltans and keep the island.
    Will the Spanish ever give it a rest? I think the Gibraltar issue is a good distraction for them from there fooked economy
    How can you call it an imperial leftover if the people are happy and want to be a part of Britain the only thing we should do is as they ask tbh.
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    (Original post by Aj12)
    How can you call it an imperial leftover if the people are happy and want to be a part of Britain the only thing we should do is as they ask tbh.
    Absolutely. By the same token I think we should invade, say, Saudi Arabia- depose the monarchy, install our own government and encourage thousands of British people to move to the country. We'll carry over all British citizenship rights, institutions, systems of governance, customs, values and traditions. We'll defend it by force if needs be and then in a hundred, two hundred years, we'll belatedly scream 'self-determination!' and call a referendum asking all the British people in our conquered territory if they're British. When they vote yes it legitimises our hold on the territory, so all's tied up neat and tidy and we gain a profitable little extension to UK plc. What a cunning plan!
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    (Original post by creak)
    Absolutely. By the same token I think we should invade, say, Saudi Arabia- depose the monarchy, install our own government and encourage thousands of British people to move to the country. We'll carry over all British citizenship rights, institutions, systems of governance, customs, values and traditions. We'll defend it by force if needs be and then in a hundred, two hundred years, we'll belatedly scream 'self-determination!' and call a referendum asking all the British people in our conquered territory if they're British. When they vote yes it legitimises our hold on the territory, so all's tied up neat and tidy and we gain a profitable little extension to UK plc. What a cunning plan!
    You mean that 27% of the country is British compared to 24% Spanish. Yeah because that is going to lead to an overwhelming majority vote.
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    It is up to the citizens to decide, and they have overwhelmingly rejected the idea of Spain ruling there. So the Spanish should be told to do one.
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    The problems already solved - it's British.

    Strange that our so-called 'anti-imperialists' only ever seem to worry about British Imperialism or American Imperialism but never Spanish Imperialism or Argentinian Imperialism.
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    (Original post by creak)
    Absolutely. By the same token I think we should invade, say, Saudi Arabia- depose the monarchy, install our own government and encourage thousands of British people to move to the country. We'll carry over all British citizenship rights, institutions, systems of governance, customs, values and traditions. We'll defend it by force if needs be and then in a hundred, two hundred years, we'll belatedly scream 'self-determination!' and call a referendum asking all the British people in our conquered territory if they're British. When they vote yes it legitimises our hold on the territory, so all's tied up neat and tidy and we gain a profitable little extension to UK plc. What a cunning plan!
    So you think we should go back to the dawn of time giving everyone back what was their land when we first appeared on this planet? There is no logical reason to stop at the time we took Gibraltar.

    Call it double standards if you want, but now is what counts and the people there want to live under British rule, there is no logical reason to force them to be under Spanish rule.

    If we invaded another country now then I'd agree with you that it's wrong, but what's done is done. Call me cynical but I'm sure Spain has expanded since it's original inception...
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    Nah, facetiousness aside, it was to highlight the absurdity of using 'self-determination' to try and rationalise the results of power and territory struggles between competing states.
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    Piss off Spiko.

    Three simple words and the job's done.
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    Sure if they give us Barcelona.
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    (Original post by creak)
    Absolutely. By the same token I think we should invade, say, Saudi Arabia- depose the monarchy, install our own government and encourage thousands of British people to move to the country. We'll carry over all British citizenship rights, institutions, systems of governance, customs, values and traditions. We'll defend it by force if needs be and then in a hundred, two hundred years, we'll belatedly scream 'self-determination!' and call a referendum asking all the British people in our conquered territory if they're British. When they vote yes it legitimises our hold on the territory, so all's tied up neat and tidy and we gain a profitable little extension to UK plc. What a cunning plan!
    1. We never encouraged British immigration to Gibraltar - most of the population is derived from Spain and Genoa (when it was a major merchant power with a lot of sailors)

    2. The Gibraltarians' right and will to self-determination, and the refernda conducted to determine that, isn't what makes the existence of Gibraltar possible or legal, it's the fact that Gibraltar was ceded in perpetuity by the Spanish crown in 1713, unconditionally, as part of the Treaty of Utrecht. It is ours and there's sweet **** all Spain can do about it.

    Anyway, Gibraltar's populace has spoken quite clearly about this, and the Spanish government doesn't have a legal leg to stand on with their claim. It also doesn't help matters that they're holding on to two Moroccan cities - Ceuta and Melilla - which actually wasn't agreed to by the new Moroccan government post-colonisation. Hypocrisy of the highest order.
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    The people voted to stay part of Britain, so it stays part of Britain.
    Simple really.
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    (Original post by creak)
    Nah, facetiousness aside, it was to highlight the absurdity of using 'self-determination' to try and rationalise the results of power and territory struggles between competing states.
    Why is it absurd? The territory is currently British and there is a dispute between Britain and Spain over who should have it. There is no way to get a compromise out of the two, so why is it "absurd" to ask the actual people affected by this what they want?

    I agree, you can't just go around having random referendums in random places over self-determination, but what logical way is there to resolve this? Surely the people actually involved are more important than the two governments arguing, who have no connection to it and quite frankly are just arguing because of politics - not any welfare concern.
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    (Original post by Aphotic Cosmos)

    2. The Gibraltarians' right and will to self-determination, and the refernda conducted to determine that, isn't what makes the existence of Gibraltar possible or legal, it's the fact that Gibraltar was ceded in perpetuity by the Spanish crown in 1713, unconditionally, as part of the Treaty of Utrecht. It is ours and there's sweet **** all Spain can do about it.
    Yeh, ignore my first post because I was being a little silly, but the above is basically my point. It's not simply the will of the population that makes Gibraltar British; it helps, but at root it's just PR wheeled out to justify the ownership of a far flung territory. It's the method of acquisition, its relative value to the UK and the implications of secession that truly determine whether Gibraltar will remain in British hands, not what those resident want. That's the sorry hand of realpolitik at play, unfortunately.
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    I don't get when Spain and Argentina calls for a resolution over Gibraltar and Falklands. There already is a resolution- They are British. They stubbornly refuse to budge on the issue and refuse to contemplate dropping sovereignty claims, so why do they cry like little *****es when we do likewise?
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    And for the record, the UK did not steal Gibraltar, it was ceded by Spain as part of the Treaty of Utrecht.
    Territorial change by Treaty is not illegal and the only reason people question our control of Gibraltar is geographical location.
 
 
 
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