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    (Original post by mjeezy)
    I agree with you there. But you seem to be confused on the line between natural rights and legal rights.

    Prisoners are not contributing members of society, so why should they have a say in how society works? It just makes sense. But you keep talking about taking away their "human rights". What are those exactly?
    Well the way some people seem to be on her, we are taking away their human rights by putting them in jail, "why, they only raped someone" they should not be allowed to vote and should be locked up properly. Not with their ps3's and sky tv. To be honest rights in general, they shouldnt have the same rights as everybody else.
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    (Original post by kevR94)
    I cannot and never will, accept that scum in prisons sould have the same rights as anybody else.
    What makes you think they're all scum?

    (Original post by kevR94)
    They have broken the law for christ sake.
    And this automatically makes them evil dehumanised scum? Do you not realise how many pointless victimless crimes there are that are punished with imprisonment?

    So hypothetically, if a law was passed tomorrow which outlawed calling prisoners scum, and protesting against said law, with the minimum sentence prison, and you inadvertently said it, well ignorance is no excuse, you would be -by your very own definition- scum undeserving of human rights, and there would be nothing you could do about it.

    I'd love you to be put in prison just so you'd know what it is like to be considered scum. Maybe then, when you are imprisoned for breaking an unjust law you will understand what a disgusting human being you actually are.
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    Everyone in Europe does it different to us, but WE'RE RIGHT DAMNIT!!
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    (Original post by Stefan1991)
    Imprisonment shouldn't be a punishment. Since when do two wrongs make a right? Imprisonment should be a deterrent and a practical solution for separating the more dangerous elements of society and protecting the rights of individuals. Furthermore it should be about rehabilitation of criminals into non-offending functioning members of society, not about mindless punishment for the sake of punishment. How is that going to improve things? Apart from foster a sense of bitterness and resentment in criminals towards society leading them to hate it and attempt to disrupt it even more.

    And how exactly is it wrong to let them decide participate in society, especially if it helps in the rehabilitation process? It's like saying why should I be able to vote for a government in London when I live in Manchester. Last time I checked, prisons weren't self autonomous state like societies, but they are run by the government. They are part of the same society, just temporarily separated.

    Prisoner abuses can and DO happen. Unfortunately the government know there's nothing prisoners can do towards political redress, and this is abused. Rambling on about how they should be punished as much as possible just sounds like the rantings of the typical Daily Mail reader who has no concept of sociology or criminology. Ultimately we should do what's best for society, giving prisoner votes benefits society more than the prisoner, restricting prisoner voting benefits NOBODY.
    First of all. Getting personal and suggesting I read the Daily Mail is a poor argument. This is a debate and if you intend to start ****ging me off, then you can just do one.

    I can't remember from A-Level Law that well but I remember that sentencing had 7 reasons e.g. rehabilitation, separation, revenge etc. If anyone has English Legal System then could you look it up. Imprisoning someone has a range of outcomes. But we imprison because we want to punish. We must show as a society is unacceptable to do that crime. Prisons are meant to be designed to rehabilitate. The reoffending rates obviously don't support that but still. Punishment remains a key reason to imprison someone. If we didn't want to punish, we wouldn't do it.

    I'm not really sure of you analogy here with Manchester and London.

    Never said Prisoner abuses don't happen.
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    (Original post by Future Doc)
    No you didn't. However I once again believed that your comment that they should not have the same rights as hard-working citizens implied that. I'm not sure where you draw the line of removing rights.

    Thankfully, it would never get to that point. The human rights is vague in some areas but clear that they cannot be detained arbitrary. If they've committed a crime, they can get imprisoned.
    My comment saying that they do not have the same rights as hard-working citizens does not mean they should be tortured or abused. Im simply saying that they do not deserve to be able to shape society, which it is my right to be able to do that when voting.
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    (Original post by kevR94)
    My comment saying that they do not have the same rights as hard-working citizens does not mean they should be tortured or abused. Im simply saying that they do not deserve to be able to shape society, which it is my right to be able to do that when voting.
    Cool. Prisoners can't vote. Solved
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    (Original post by mjeezy)
    Prisoners are not contributing members of society, so why should they have a say in how society works?
    Neither are people on the dole, should they not be allowed to vote as well?
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    (Original post by Stefan1991)
    Neither are people on the dole, should they not be allowed to vote as well?
    People that are paid an allowance which they then spend in the British Economy, which is taxable. People on benefits do contribute.
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    (Original post by Stefan1991)
    What makes you think they're all scum?



    And this automatically makes them evil dehumanised scum? Do you not realise how many pointless victimless crimes there are that are punished with imprisonment?

    So hypothetically, if a law was passed tomorrow which outlawed calling prisoners scum, and protesting against said law, with the minimum sentence prison, and you inadvertently said it, well ignorance is no excuse, you would be -by your very own definition- scum undeserving of human rights, and there would be nothing you could do about it.

    I'd love you to be put in prison just so you'd know what it is like to be considered scum. Maybe then, when you are imprisoned for breaking an unjust law you will understand what a disgusting human being you actually are.
    Right, because you seem to be incapable of reading everything i say properly i will explain myself AGAIN. I think they (MURDERERS, RAPISTS and PEDOPHILES) are all scum. I do realise there are some pointless crimes punished by imprisonment and AGAIN i will say that its the MURDERERS, RAPISTS and PEDOPHILES which are scum.

    So what pointless victemless crimes are punished with imprisonment?
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    (Original post by Future Doc)
    Cool. Prisoners can't vote. Solved
    Thank god, someone who seems capeable of listening to me and not being idiotic and personal.
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    (Original post by Stefan1991)
    Neither are people on the dole, should they not be allowed to vote as well?
    People on the dole not only spend their money on things in the British economy, but they interact with people in society, they have an influence on people in society.
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    (Original post by Future Doc)
    People that are paid an allowance which they then spend in the British Economy, which is taxable. People on benefits do contribute.
    Because prisoners don't work and pay taxes in prison. :rolleyes:

    Giving people free money so they can get free stuff and give some back on the other hand. Massive contribution.
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    (Original post by kevR94)
    Right, because you seem to be incapable of reading everything i say properly i will explain myself AGAIN. I think they (MURDERERS, RAPISTS and PEDOPHILES) are all scum. I do realise there are some pointless crimes punished by imprisonment and AGAIN i will say that its the MURDERERS, RAPISTS and PEDOPHILES which are scum.

    So what pointless victemless crimes are punished with imprisonment?
    Drugs, basically. Unless my smoking a joint hurts you somehow (which I'm sure it does, in some vague, metaphysical way.)
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    (Original post by kevR94)
    Right, because you seem to be incapable of reading everything i say properly i will explain myself AGAIN. I think they (MURDERERS, RAPISTS and PEDOPHILES) are all scum. I do realise there are some pointless crimes punished by imprisonment and AGAIN i will say that its the MURDERERS, RAPISTS and PEDOPHILES which are scum.

    So what pointless victemless crimes are punished with imprisonment?
    Sorry but what is your prejudice against paedophiles? You have repeatedly stated that people of that sexual orientation are "scum" please explain to me why they are so.

    So you would be okay with giving ALL prisoners the vote, except for rapists and murderers?

    And what do you mean, so what? Are you saying these people should be locked up for committing a pointless victimless crime?
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    (Original post by Stefan1991)
    Because prisoners don't work and pay taxes in prison. :rolleyes:

    Giving people free money so they can get free stuff and give some back on the other hand. Massive contribution.
    Prisoners don't pay tax. They do work, but it's minimum wage and completely optional.

    It's a human right to welfare. And seeing as they have probably paid national insurance at somepoint, I doubt they see it as free money.
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    (Original post by Future Doc)
    Prisoners don't pay tax. They do work, but it's minimum wage and completely optional.
    I'm afraid they do pay tax, just like everyone else. That's more than what could be said for people on the dole, plus could say that's completely optional for the most part.

    (Original post by Future Doc)
    It's a human right to welfare. And seeing as they have probably paid national insurance at somepoint, I doubt they see it as free money.
    I find it unlikely that those who get on the dole at 16 and stay on it for over 10 years have paid much national insurance.

    At the end of the day human rights aren't decided on how much it is perceived you put into society, you simply have to be a member of that society and a human to have the right of political participation.
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    (Original post by Stefan1991)
    I'm afraid they do pay tax, just like everyone else. That's more than what could be said for people on the dole, plus could say that's completely optional for the most part.



    I find it unlikely that those who get on the dole at 16 and stay on it for over 10 years have paid much national insurance.

    At the end of the day human rights aren't decided on how much it is perceived you put into society, you simply have to be a member of that society and a human to have the right of political participation.
    I'm pretty sure they don't pay tax. Benefits like Jobseekers Allowance is taxable.

    Obviously not, but then I didn't say all had pay NI contributions.

    True, but not what I said.
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    (Original post by Callum828)
    Drugs, basically. Unless my smoking a joint hurts you somehow (which I'm sure it does, in some vague, metaphysical way.)
    And that's just one. Possessing drugs for personal use. Imprisonment.

    Refusing to be forced to wear clothes. Imprisonment http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Gough

    Having consensual incestuous contraceptive sex, imprisonment

    Looking at banned censored images on your computer, imprisonment

    Being a member of a banned proscribed political group, imprisonment

    Kerb crawling and soliciting sex, imprisonment


    All these crimes are harmless and victimless.

    So unless you can guarantee that every current and future imprisonable offence is and will be a rationally sound, justifiable and moral law which will never need to be changed no matter how much society changes, then restricting prisoner voting is wrong.
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    (Original post by Stefan1991)
    Sorry but what is your prejudice against paedophiles? You have repeatedly stated that people of that sexual orientation are "scum" please explain to me why they are so.

    So you would be okay with giving ALL prisoners the vote, except for rapists and murderers?

    And what do you mean, so what? Are you saying these people should be locked up for committing a pointless victimless crime?
    So you dont think pedophiles are discusting people. In fact im not even going to answer that one you uneducated idiotic freak. How can you possibly at any length defent a pedophile?

    And no. No prisoners should get the vote no matter what the crime.

    And again, because of your inability to read, i simply asked what were the pointless crimes? As in a genuine question. What do you think the pointless crimes are?
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    (Original post by Stefan1991)
    And that's just one. Possessing drugs for personal use. Imprisonment.

    Refusing to be forced to wear clothes. Imprisonment http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Gough

    Having consensual incestuous contraceptive sex, imprisonment

    Looking at banned censored images on your computer, imprisonment

    Being a member of a banned proscribed political group, imprisonment

    Kerb crawling and soliciting sex, imprisonment


    All these crimes are harmless and victimless.

    So unless you can guarantee that every current and future imprisonable offence is and will be a rationally sound, justifiable and moral law which will never need to be changed no matter how much society changes, then restricting prisoner voting is wrong.
    Possessing drugs for personal use - the victim is the inocent man they kick the crap out of because he looks like he has money and your so high you dont know what is happening.

    Having consensual incestuous contraceptive sex - well to be honest, thats just wrong.

    Being a member of a banned proscribed political group - that group of mixed race kids you beat up because they were mixed race. Of course there are different groups.

    Kerb crawling and soliciting sex - the plain damage to yourself to be honest.
 
 
 
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