Job centres tricking claimants out of benefits Watch

gateshipone
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#81
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#81
(Original post by nulli tertius)
No. Civil servants are virtually never made compulsorily redundant.
Not true any more. There are a lot of civil servants who's jobs are at risk right now due to cuts to public services.
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Smophy
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#82
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They forgot to mention that you also get sanctioned for doing voluntary work!!! That is what has just happened to me. Everyone on JSA should volunteer anyway imo yet I take initiative and try and gain experience and skills to help me find employment and I am punished. How backwards is that?!
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nulli tertius
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(Original post by WelshBluebird)
My post was about both though (which is what you replied to).
I replied to the sentence:

Kicking severally disabled people off their benefit and declaring them fit to work is fair?
I made the reckless, and it turns out incorrect, assumption that the "and" was conjunctive and not disjunctive.
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gateshipone
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(Original post by Smophy)
They forgot to mention that you also get sanctioned for doing voluntary work!!! That is what has just happened to me. Everyone on JSA should volunteer anyway imo yet I take initiative and try and gain experience and skills to help me find employment and I am punished. How backwards is that?!
What reason did they give? you can volunteer while signing on, you just have to be actively seeking paid work, be able to attend all JCP interviews and meetings and be willing to give up the volunteering for a paid job.

You just need to fill in a vol1 form, which you can get from the staff. If you've been sanctioned, appeal it.
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joe3469
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#85
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Tax evaders cost the country loads more than benefit cheats, the difference is the former is in bed with the government.
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WelshBluebird
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(Original post by nulli tertius)
I replied to the sentence:



I made the reckless, and it turns out incorrect, assumption that the "and" was conjunctive and not disjunctive.
Maybe I should have worded what I said better.
It still is a huge issue though. When you have people with no medical qualifications over-riding decisions made by people with many qualifications and a long history in the area, it is very worrying. The very fact that many of the appeals are being won says a lot IMO.
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marcusfox
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(Original post by WelshBluebird)
Really?
Kicking severally disabled people off their benefit and declaring them fit to work is fair?
Do you mean several or severely?

If they are severely disabled, then they will have no problem passing the medical assessment, will they? Thus they will continue receiving disablement benefits.

To say such a thing as you have is hyperbole.

On the other hand, slightly disabled people may find that there are some jobs that they are able to do.

Disabled people can work you know, disabilities come in all shapes and forms, and because you don't know someone's particular circumstances, you can't generalise massively like you have done.

The whole reason for this required reassessment is that so much swinging the lead was allowed to go on under Labour with many examples of people found to be pretending to be off sick.

Therefore, anyone who is found to be genuinely severely disabled will still be able to receive their disablement benefits. Anyone who is deemed able to work will need to start looking. I don't see the problem really?
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nulli tertius
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(Original post by joe3469)
Tax evaders cost the country loads more than benefit cheats, the difference is the former is in bed with the government.
Yes they do, though they are often the same people.

If you have names and details I am sure HMRC would only be too glad to hear from you.
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joe3469
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(Original post by nulli tertius)
Yes they do, though they are often the same people.

If you have names and details I am sure HMRC would only be too glad to hear from you.
Loads of tax dodgers are big donors to the Tory Party.
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WelshBluebird
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(Original post by marcusfox)
If they are severely disabled, then they will have no problem passing the medical assessment, will they?
Well obviously not. It is not hyperbole. It is happening. People with very bad conditions which leave them in a lot of pain from doing the simplest things are being found fit to work.

One common example is being asked for walk a little bit. It doesn't matter how much pain that person is in, if they can do it, then its a "yes" tick. No consideration for the condition, or the pain doing that small walk has caused.

You may not believe me. If you don't, then just use google.

The fact is that the people conducting the assesments are just "box tickets" and are ignoring the advice of real medical profesionals. There is no wonder why so many appeals against ATOS's decisions are being successful.

As for people pretending to be sick - you do realise the number of people, and amount of money wasted on that, is tiny compared to the genuine claiments?
Last edited by WelshBluebird; 7 years ago
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nulli tertius
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(Original post by WelshBluebird)
Maybe I should have worded what I said better.
It still is a huge issue though. When you have people with no medical qualifications over-riding decisions made by people with many qualifications and a long history in the area, it is very worrying. The very fact that many of the appeals are being won says a lot IMO.
The criticism that has generally been made is that DWP decision makers have been unwilling to override the advice of the ATOS disability analysts, not the other way around.

One of the major criticisms in the recent report on the system is that there was a decision-making black hole. The analysts considered that they were only provided a single piece of advice for decision-makers to use along with other information whilst decision-makers felt that they could not go against what the disability analyst said because they were the experts. Ultimately no -one was taking responsibility for the decisions.
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nulli tertius
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#92
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(Original post by joe3469)
Loads of tax dodgers are big donors to the Tory Party.
As I say, if you know the names and circumstances of any tax evaders, whether Tory party donors or not, HMRC will be glad to hear from you.
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Smophy
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#93
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(Original post by gateshipone)
What reason did they give? you can volunteer while signing on, you just have to be actively seeking paid work, be able to attend all JCP interviews and meetings and be willing to give up the volunteering for a paid job.

You just need to fill in a vol1 form, which you can get from the staff. If you've been sanctioned, appeal it.
Originally they suspended it until I got written evidence that it was unpaid work, where I worked, what days etc. After I sent these off I received a very irritating and completely pointless phone call. It was a woman from the job centre who wanted to know more about the voluntary work which I do in schools. Apparently because schools aren't voluntary organisations I am not entitled to my benefit. Well I was gob smacked. After discussing it with her further, her pointless questions including "Why do you do it?" obviously to help me gain experience and therefore employment silly woman, I finally got her to allow my benefit.

The phone call ended with "Well I will allow it for now but will review it in the future". FFS!

I can't see what the problem is. I have said I can attend an interview with at least 48 hrs (the requirement), I do not miss any sign on days and I am still seeking full time employment and i am willing to give up the voluntary work for a paid job. Well at least it is sorted, for now.

Oh and apparently you are supposed to arrange voluntary work through the job centre. I have never been told this before. Punished for using my own initiative.
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WelshBluebird
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(Original post by nulli tertius)
The criticism that has generally been made is that DWP decision makers have been unwilling to override the advice of the ATOS disability analysts, not the other way around.
Certainly in some parts of the country the appeal success rate is as high as 70%!
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gateshipone
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(Original post by Smophy)
Originally they suspended it until I got written evidence that it was unpaid work, where I worked, what days etc. After I sent these off I received a very irritating and completely pointless phone call. It was a woman from the job centre who wanted to know more about the voluntary work which I do in schools. Apparently because schools aren't voluntary organisations I am not entitled to my benefit. Well I was gob smacked. After discussing it with her further, her pointless questions including "Why do you do it?" obviously to help me gain experience and therefore employment silly woman, I finally got her to allow my benefit.

The phone call ended with "Well I will allow it for now but will review it in the future". FFS!

I can't see what the problem is. I have said I can attend an interview with at least 48 hrs (the requirement), I do not miss any sign on days and I am still seeking full time employment and i am willing to give up the voluntary work for a paid job. Well at least it is sorted, for now.

Oh and apparently you are supposed to arrange voluntary work through the job centre. I have never been told this before. Punished for using my own initiative.
The rules changed the middle of last year to allow volunteering anywhere. Before that is was only with charities. Perhaps that person didn't get the memo!

You don't have to arrange it through the jobcentre either, only work placements do as they are pretty much jobs except the interview process takes the form of the placement.

I think you got unlucky and got someone who wasn't clear on the rules. Sucks but it does happen.

Anyone not happy with a decision should ask for a reconsideration. That's the best way to get what you want.
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nulli tertius
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(Original post by WelshBluebird)
Certainly in some parts of the country the appeal success rate is as high as 70%!
Yes.

Appeal tribunals, which include a doctor, get the measure of the local ATOS analysts pretty quickly. One or two hopeless ones at a centre will skew the results dramatically.
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marcusfox
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#97
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(Original post by WelshBluebird)
There are many many more unemployed people than there are vacancies.
You just don't get it. The whole thread is about people complaining that they are getting kicked off JSA.

There may well be more people out there who are unemployed than there are vacancies available. However, all these unemployed have to do to keep getting their out of work benefits is to keep applying for the jobs that the jobcentre staff have told them to apply for, plus do their additional job-search. Maybe most of them won't get a job. Some will. But generally, you will find that you don't get a job if you don't make the effort.

(Original post by WelshBluebird)
The problem is that those jobs are not available for a lot of "educated" people. You are "overqualified" or whatever BS they want to come out with.
So what? Keep applying for jobs that you are overqualified for and keep getting your benefits if that's what makes you happy. You have 30-40 hours a week, plus whatever time everyone else spends commuting to and from work to look for jobs for "educated" people, as you put it. Otherwise, you'll have to put up with applying for cleaning jobs amd whatever the jobcentre says you should apply for, and if an employer offers you a cleaning job, you'll have to take it. This is the whole point of job seeker's allowance.

(Original post by WelshBluebird)
Also, commuting is also a huge issue.
I went to the job centre back home a couple of times during sixth form to see if there was anything. The problem I had is that they kept on throwing up restuarant and bar vacancies in the next valley. Now, if you drive then that is fine. But if you have to rely on public transport, then it would be impossible to get to and from.
That's unfortunate. But if you are on JSA, then I believe there's a great rail service from Rhondda to Cardiff and you will be expected to use that to commute to Cardiff and as such, apply for jobs there. First train will get you in before 7 am and last train back is after 10 pm. There are full time day jobs available in Cardiff.

Please don't confuse this with a "The unemployed in this country have no excuse, there is plenty of suitable work, statement". I agree, there isn't.

It is more along the lines of "Those on JSA have no excuse for failing to apply for jobs, there are plenty of jobs available to apply for", even if it means someone in the Rhondda has to get up early and commute to a toilet cleaning job in Cardiff.

Yes, it's not nice. But again, JSA and other benefits shouldn't be a lifestyle choice, they should be there to provide minimum standards of living. And while on benefits, I believe that if you are fit and able, then you should be looking for work.
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Smophy
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#98
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(Original post by gateshipone)
The rules changed the middle of last year to allow volunteering anywhere. Before that is was only with charities. Perhaps that person didn't get the memo!

You don't have to arrange it through the jobcentre either, only work placements do as they are pretty much jobs except the interview process takes the form of the placement.

I think you got unlucky and got someone who wasn't clear on the rules. Sucks but it does happen.

Anyone not happy with a decision should ask for a reconsideration. That's the best way to get what you want.
Thank you for telling me this. At least next time she calls I will know to ask for a reconsideration. I was honestly gob smacked when she first said I won't get it. I was in shock, I didn't even say anything till she spoke again haha I couldn't believe they would stop it for volunteering. Oh well all sorted now.
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gateshipone
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(Original post by Smophy)
Thank you for telling me this. At least next time she calls I will know to ask for a reconsideration. I was honestly gob smacked when she first said I won't get it. I was in shock, I didn't even say anything till she spoke again haha I couldn't believe they would stop it for volunteering. Oh well all sorted now.
Glad to hear it. One of the reasons I comment on these threads is to use what I know of the rules to help people out when they meet the few members of JCP staff who are idiots!
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nulli tertius
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(Original post by WelshBluebird)
Well obviously not. It is not hyperbole. It is happening. People with very bad conditions which leave them in a lot of pain from doing the simplest things are being found fit to work.

One common example is being asked for walk a little bit. It doesn't matter how much pain that person is in, if they can do it, then its a "yes" tick. No consideration for the condition, or the pain doing that small walk has caused.
Well, that is irrelevant from next week.

If they can push themselves in a manual wheelchair they can mobilise sufficiently to work.
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