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Job centres tricking claimants out of benefits watch

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    (Original post by Llamageddon)
    I remember back in 2009 being on the dole for 3 weeks. By the second week I had a job and I was told that because, having found a job, I stopped looking for one, I would lose a week. I actually lost 3 weeks because I didn't receive anything.

    I don't know how people can do it. I think I'd actually starve first. I'm probably more stubborn than other people though.
    Talking of weird rules, each time I have got a job after signing on for a few months or so its only been pure luck that I havent been working the day I normally sign on as the jobcentre wont let you sign off till your final sign on day i.e if I signed on a Friday and I started a job the following wednesday I would have to still sign on/off 12 days later else I wouldnt get my final wages(I still dont understand how that works)
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    (Original post by drbluebox)
    Talking of weird rules, each time I have got a job after signing on for a few months or so its only been pure luck that I havent been working the day I normally sign on as the jobcentre wont let you sign off till your final sign on day i.e if I signed on a Friday and I started a job the following wednesday I would have to still sign on/off 12 days later else I wouldnt get my final wages(I still dont understand how that works)
    That sounds very odd. The standard practice was to complete your ES40 or phone the In and Out of Work team as soon as you started work after you next signing day.
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    (Original post by Future Doc)
    That sounds very odd. The standard practice was to complete your ES40 or phone the In and Out of Work team as soon as you started work after you next signing day.
    This is going back a few years again, have been at college for a few years and so havent worked having just come off signing on for a while.

    I remember one time handing in my sign on book and getting it back through post a few days later saying it was too early to hand it in.
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    (Original post by drbluebox)
    This is going back a few years again, have been at college for a few years and so havent worked having just come off signing on for a while.

    I remember one time handing in my sign on book and getting it back through post a few days later saying it was too early to hand it in.
    Hahah. That sounds like the DWP. God I don't miss that backward thinking at all
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    (Original post by marcusfox)
    And 'certain people' who aren't complying with their Job Seekers requirements shouldn't be complained about?



    ****ging off and generalising Polish foreigners as slackers is a pretty good definition of xenophobia, yes, particularly when the only examples you provided were your housemates, a neighbour and some cleaners where you worked.

    I was "****ging off" slackers who happened to be Polish which meant that 100% of Polish workers arent hard working not an entire nation I never said ALL Polish people were slackers did I? I was trying to get the point across that automatically being Polish doesnt mean they are harder workers.

    I would, but you seem evasive. Perhaps you are worried that I will in fact find jobs available in your town, like I have done with Martyn. Perhaps that will be the only thing that stops your moaning excuses - and they are moaning excuses - just like they did his.

    When did I say there was NO jobs available in my town? I was talking about proportion, if there is 10 jobs for thousands of people there is still 10 jobs available but the likelyhood of getting said job is far lower than if there is 100 jobs for the samd amount of applicants, quite pathetic that you see anyone who doesnt agree with you as making excuses, I dread to see how you treat anyone in real life.

    Just for you, post details of this mythical place where there are no jobs. If you don't want to reveal where you live, then fair enough, but then stop going on about the fact that there are no jobs within a commutable distance.

    Because we know that there are plenty in Edinburgh and Glasgow that you can apply for. Doesn't matter if you are a total unemployable bum, it's the applying for jobs that counts, and the only real requirement of claiming job seekers allowance

    So you have never heard of New Deal placements then? or 2 week skill building courses?



    Sorry, but are you expecting us to believe that you were expected to fill in all the applications within your signing window at the jobcentre? That is hilarious.

    Just for future reference - you read the job specification at the job centre before you accept it. You take the forms away and complete them in your own time.


    Why? And no. not my signing window but before the jobcentre closed and since they didnt explain to me the closing date before handing me application form and wont let you look at the screen theres little you can do, its been so long since it happened(we are talking years) I dont think they even printed me out the job details.


    Sorry, you misunderstood me. The implication of me saying "Even if there is no chance of you getting it, you still send in your CV or the application" is that you do it before the job expires/closing date.



    The thread is talking about people being kicked off JSA because they didn't comply with the requirements. Someone being being kicked off DLA because they or someone else didn't comply with the requirements is to be expected, but irrelevant to this discussion.



    Worked til he was in his late 30s? If he then became ill, he would still have been pensioned off. In any case, if you can't work, you get DLA or IB. There is no point in introducting your father to this discussion unless he was kicked off JSA because he failed to comply with the rules in some way, since he wasn't even eligible for JSA.

    It was DLA he got for many years till he recently retired(yet still wants to work) in fact my mum has been offered a full time job after many years of looking as its for a local wildlife area which is about 3 miles from where they live in countryside(so they like the locals) and they know my parents have done a lot of charity work.

    Nevertheless, to answer your point, I don't see it as unreasonable that claimants who are themselves unable to meet the necessarily stringent requirements for getting what is effectively free money find themselves without it.



    Nope, you didn't upset me. But if you want to be taken seriously and have a debate without conclusions being drawn as to the possible reasons for your current state of employment, or unemployment, you should state your points as clearly and lucidly as possible.
    They are only as lucid and clear as the person reading them, and if they were anywhere near as intelligent as they think they are they should understand the point.
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    (Original post by marcusfox)
    Well, that's just fantastic. More than 300,000 wasters in families that have never worked, who are surely breeding the next quarter of a million wasters (the number of people under 16 in households that have never worked.
    But does that take into account the people who cannot work due to disability, illness or family issues?
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    (Original post by WelshBluebird)
    But does that take into account the people who cannot work due to disability, illness or family issues?
    Yes it will but it also includes the far larger group of people who think they cannot work but in fact can.
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    (Original post by WelshBluebird)
    But does that take into account the people who cannot work due to disability, illness or family issues?
    I'm prepared to accept that maybe a miniscule proportion of those (in the order of a few 100s, maybe not even that) were born disabled or acquired a disability/illness or family issue, as you put it, before they reached working age. And that's proper disability, not pretend disability.

    Other than that, yes. They will all, almost without exception, be wasters.
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    (Original post by nulli tertius)
    Was there no event that needed a steward, no crops that needed picking, no packhouse needing labour?

    These are jobs that generally start within 24 hours.

    It is perfectly fine for you to decide not to bother but the taxpayer should not be supporting you in that period.
    I don't know what planet you live on. I've been a steward several times. It's great money as a student, but you DO have to sign up for it long in advance. Crop picking isn't all too common a profession in cities (nor out of them, frankly) and requires the crops to be ready to pick. It's not even true that I wasn't job searching during this period, as I applied to several graduate schemes, it's just they weren't on the jobseaker agreement.

    If you're really this much of a jobsworth I hope you never have a job that involves interaction with the public.
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    (Original post by Llamageddon)
    I don't know what planet you live on. I've been a steward several times. It's great money as a student, but you DO have to sign up for it long in advance. Crop picking isn't all too common a profession in cities (nor out of them, frankly) and requires the crops to be ready to pick. It's not even true that I wasn't job searching during this period, as I applied to several graduate schemes, it's just they weren't on the jobseaker agreement.

    If you're really this much of a jobsworth I hope you never have a job that involves interaction with the public.
    I do have a job that deals with the public.

    Gangmasters do generally recruit for agricultural labour in towns and cities.
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    (Original post by drbluebox)
    They are only as lucid and clear as the person reading them, and if they were anywhere near as intelligent as they think they are they should understand the point.
    So you're admitting that you have no excuse for not understanding the JSA rules and failing to read your job specifications given to you by the jobcentre staff, which was your later point? I'll touch on this later.

    (Original post by drbluebox)
    I was "****ging off" slackers who happened to be Polish which meant that 100% of Polish workers arent hard working not an entire nation I never said ALL Polish people were slackers did I? I was trying to get the point across that automatically being Polish doesnt mean they are harder workers.
    You said, and I'll provide a quote, that it was a massive generalisation for me to say that the majority of Polish people were hard working and then provided a bit of xenophobic ranting about your housemates, neighbour and some cleaners.

    (Original post by drbluebox)
    That really is a massive generalisation, I had Polish housemates before who spent a huge amount of time trashing the property and getting drunk most nights and complaining about everything, my current neighbour "works hard" but likes to scrounge off everyone around him stating how poor he is despite him wearing expensive clothes etc, When I worked in a holiday park all the cleaners were Polish and they would spend about 1 hour per chalet cleaning them(at least in quiet season) and about 50 minutes of that was them sitting in the chalet smoking a cigarette!(seriously)
    Yep, OK, probably I'll agree, there are a small percentage of Polish people who are wasters. Happy now?

    (Original post by drbluebox)
    When did I say there was NO jobs available in my town? I was talking about proportion, if there is 10 jobs for thousands of people there is still 10 jobs available but the likelyhood of getting said job is far lower than if there is 100 jobs for the samd amount of applicants, quite pathetic that you see anyone who doesnt agree with you as making excuses, I dread to see how you treat anyone in real life.
    There are jobs available for you to apply for. How many, the proportion in relation to the unemployed or whether or not you get them is irrelevant. They are there.

    (Original post by drbluebox)
    Where I live now there might be 10 new jobs a week and 15 over a fortnight, however theres thousands of people unemployed in the town so how can you act as if there is jobs going?
    If you won't tell me the town, I'll have to assume it's within reasonable commuting distance of Edinburgh or Glasgow then - and there are jobs there. It's no excuse for you not to be applying for them. Not one that I or the jobcentre would accept, anyway.

    (Original post by drbluebox)
    So you have never heard of New Deal placements then? or 2 week skill building courses?
    Yes, and a condition of remaining "long term unemployed" as you wish to do means you must go on these courses. If you don't, then get a job. If you can't, that's tough. Man up.

    Again, if you are New Deal, then you'll get a 50% off Train Fares New Deal Rail Card. I am aware that in Scotland it can only be used on weekly Season Tickets, but if you need other tickets, you can buy them from the Jobcentre at 50% discount. Another reason commuting is reasonable.

    (Original post by drbluebox)
    Why? And no. not my signing window but before the jobcentre closed and since they didnt explain to me the closing date before handing me application form and wont let you look at the screen theres little you can do, its been so long since it happened(we are talking years) I dont think they even printed me out the job details.
    If you're going to take a job offer off the job centre (which you know you have to apply for or your benefit gets cut) then any intelligent person will be making sure they get the application form or CV in before the closing date. If you didn't check the closing date - and this is as simple as asking the person at the jobcentre "What's the closing date on this one?", you have only yourself to blame.

    The job descriptions are only as lucid and clear as the person reading them, and if they were anywhere near as intelligent as they think they are they should understand them. See, you said that.

    (Original post by drbluebox)
    It was DLA he got for many years till he recently retired(yet still wants to work) in fact my mum has been offered a full time job after many years of looking as its for a local wildlife area which is about 3 miles from where they live in countryside(so they like the locals) and they know my parents have done a lot of charity work.
    Again, you failed to explain what point you have in introducing your father (and your mother) to this discussion and how it's related to being kicked off benefits due to the jobcentre staff being unfair.
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    (Original post by marcusfox)
    Benefits are not designed to provide a comfortable standard of living, they are designed to provide a minimum standard of living.
    This, I find is a huge disgrace. I blame the government for the current job market so they should be giving me at least £200 per week until I have a job. There's five times as many unemployed as jobs so it's sick that anyone would consider making millions live in a "minimum standard of living" through no fault of their own.

    Perhaps if the government (I blame both parties here) hadn't let in millions of immigrants over the past decade or two we'd not be in this situation and there would be enough jobs for everyone. People seem to think that because there are some jobs that anyone can have one, yet they're incapable of doing simple subtraction that any five year old is taught at school to understand that THERE IS NOT ENOUGH JOBS FOR EVERYONE.

    I'm expecting crime to rocket over the next few years because a minimum standard of living is unacceptable to anyone on more than a temporary basis and even if every job in the country was filled you would still have over two million unemployed. The government are cutting policing too, which I find hilarious. If I am still unemployed next year I too will be looking into alternative methods of making money. £65 per week simply isn't enough to live the kind of life I plan to.

    If you think it's so easy to get a job then perhaps you can give me your job. As it's so easy you'll find another right away!
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    (Original post by Sephiroth)
    Perhaps if the government (I blame both parties here) hadn't let in millions of immigrants over the past decade or two we'd not be in this situation and there would be enough jobs for everyone.
    Really? You're blaming immigrants?
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    (Original post by Future Doc)
    Really? You're blaming immigrants?
    Well it is the go-to argument for people who have no real understanding of the benefits system!
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    (Original post by Sephiroth)
    This, I find is a huge disgrace. I blame the government for the current job market so they should be giving me at least £200 per week until I have a job. There's five times as many unemployed as jobs so it's sick that anyone would consider making millions live in a "minimum standard of living" through no fault of their own.
    Sorry, but I (and I think most of the rest of the country agree) that job seeking/unemployment benefits (and the associated council tax/housing benefit) are not supposed to provide a comfortable standard of living.

    If the government paid benefits as much as working, then nobody would work. In any case, JSA £65.45, going up to £67.50 x 52, £3,510, rent on one room in a shared house is probably going to be another £65-70 a week (but can be more), so that's another £3,500, and council tax benefit of about £1000. That's about £8,000 or £153 a week.

    The arrogance of you. Plenty of people work on minimum wage and scrape by living in a one bedroom house share. You won't mind many of them crying over the fact that someone on the dole doesn't have money for luxuries.

    (Original post by Sephiroth)
    Perhaps if the government (I blame both parties here) hadn't let in millions of immigrants over the past decade or two we'd not be in this situation and there would be enough jobs for everyone. People seem to think that because there are some jobs that anyone can have one, yet they're incapable of doing simple subtraction that any five year old is taught at school to understand that THERE IS NOT ENOUGH JOBS FOR EVERYONE.
    No, but there are jobs available to apply for. If the people aren't good enough for the jobs, then sorry, but that's not the governmen't fault really. The immigrants thing is a red herring. Try coming back when there are NO vacancies in jobcentres.

    (Original post by Sephiroth)
    I'm expecting crime to rocket over the next few years because a minimum standard of living is unacceptable to anyone on more than a temporary basis and even if every job in the country was filled you would still have over two million unemployed. The government are cutting policing too, which I find hilarious. If I am still unemployed next year I too will be looking into alternative methods of making money. £65 per week simply isn't enough to live the kind of life I plan to.
    Do what most people do and improve yourself so you are qualified for a decent job then.

    (Original post by Sephiroth)
    If you think it's so easy to get a job then perhaps you can give me your job. As it's so easy you'll find another right away!
    They are recruiting at the place I used to work actually. Putting stuff in boxes, even an idiot could do it. £6 per hour.
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    (Original post by marcusfox)
    So you're admitting that you have no excuse for not understanding the JSA rules and failing to read your job specifications given to you by the jobcentre staff, which was your later point? I'll touch on this later.



    You said, and I'll provide a quote, that it was a massive generalisation for me to say that the majority of Polish people were hard working and then provided a bit of xenophobic ranting about your housemates, neighbour and some cleaners.



    Yep, OK, probably I'll agree, there are a small percentage of Polish people who are wasters. Happy now?



    There are jobs available for you to apply for. How many, the proportion in relation to the unemployed or whether or not you get them is irrelevant. They are there.



    If you won't tell me the town, I'll have to assume it's within reasonable commuting distance of Edinburgh or Glasgow then - and there are jobs there. It's no excuse for you not to be applying for them. Not one that I or the jobcentre would accept, anyway.



    Yes, and a condition of remaining "long term unemployed" as you wish to do means you must go on these courses. If you don't, then get a job. If you can't, that's tough. Man up.

    Again, if you are New Deal, then you'll get a 50% off Train Fares New Deal Rail Card. I am aware that in Scotland it can only be used on weekly Season Tickets, but if you need other tickets, you can buy them from the Jobcentre at 50% discount. Another reason commuting is reasonable.



    If you're going to take a job offer off the job centre (which you know you have to apply for or your benefit gets cut) then any intelligent person will be making sure they get the application form or CV in before the closing date. If you didn't check the closing date - and this is as simple as asking the person at the jobcentre "What's the closing date on this one?", you have only yourself to blame.

    The job descriptions are only as lucid and clear as the person reading them, and if they were anywhere near as intelligent as they think they are they should understand them. See, you said that.



    Again, you failed to explain what point you have in introducing your father (and your mother) to this discussion and how it's related to being kicked off benefits due to the jobcentre staff being unfair.
    Yawn, your comments are really getting pathetic. You seem to be just out to pick on people and break down every comment someone makes to attack someone as you have made up things from what I have said and pretended you have only.

    So everyone in Scotland is on the outskirts of Glasgow or Edinburgh and only a short commute? If I wanted to go to Edinburgh its about a 2 and a half hour train journey for instance.

    Can you provide proof of my "xenophobia" based on that I said a few Polish people are wasters(which is true from my experience) and that I never said all Polish people are wasters? Have you got proof that most British people are lazy? Have you got proof of anything that you say that isnt one sided.

    Else your entire attack is pathetic.
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    (Original post by drbluebox)
    Yawn, your comments are really getting pathetic. You seem to be just out to pick on people and break down every comment someone makes to attack someone as you have made up things from what I have said and pretended you have only.
    Only what?

    Because you have no valid response to my points, to attack someone as pathetic is the last resort of someone who just lost the argument.

    (Original post by drbluebox)
    So everyone in Scotland is on the outskirts of Glasgow or Edinburgh and only a short commute? If I wanted to go to Edinburgh its about a 2 and a half hour train journey for instance.
    Go on then, provide the name of the town, otherwise stop going on about it. You're just worried that when you do, you will look foolish as Martyn did when I showed him there were jobs available to apply for.

    I'm guessing Ayr. Ayr is about 2h30 from Edinburgh, even has a Haven holiday park. Only just under an hour into Glasgow Central and 75 minutes into Glasgow Queen Street though.

    Rather amusing that you should try to justify not having to look for jobs outside your town by only providing the time of the Edinburgh trip as an extreme example, but not mentioning that Glasgow is commutable, don't you think?

    I imagine the international airport at Prestwick is a major employer too.

    (Original post by drbluebox)
    Can you provide proof of my "xenophobia" based on that I said a few Polish people are wasters(which is true from my experience) and that I never said all Polish people are wasters? Have you got proof that most British people are lazy? Have you got proof of anything that you say that isnt one sided.
    I said the majority of Polish people were hard working. You said that was a "massive generalisation", and then provided examples of a few Polish wasters.

    Taken in isolation without saying that I was generalising Polish workers as being hard working and you might have an argument, but otherwise, how else are people supposed to judge your statement apart from raging xenophobia?

    Never said that most British people were lazy. However, what I did say is that Poles were happy to take jobs that many British people [those on JSA] would rather stay on the dole than do.

    (Original post by drbluebox)
    Else your entire attack is pathetic.
    Sorry, but what is pathetic are all your excuses as to why you can't seem to comply with the extremely simple rules of JSA.

    It's plainly obvious that all the letters and paperwork and forms were designed so idiots could understand them, because the vast majority of people who are actually idiots are likely to be on JSA because they can't get jobs.
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    (Original post by Future Doc)
    Really? You're blaming immigrants?
    Reading might not be your strong point, but I'm clearly blaming the government. Even the current government's changes to immigration fall way short of what it should be. I strongly believe all immigration should be stopped until we have jobs for them to take. While we cannot give a job to everyone currently living in this country there's no way any sane person would support bringing more people in.


    (Original post by marcusfox)
    Sorry, but I (and I think most of the rest of the country agree) that job seeking/unemployment benefits (and the associated council tax/housing benefit) are not supposed to provide a comfortable standard of living.

    If the government paid benefits as much as working, then nobody would work. In any case, JSA £65.45, going up to £67.50 x 52, £3,510, rent on one room in a shared house is probably going to be another £65-70 a week (but can be more), so that's another £3,500, and council tax benefit of about £1000. That's about £8,000 or £153 a week.

    The arrogance of you. Plenty of people work on minimum wage and scrape by living in a one bedroom house share. You won't mind many of them crying over the fact that someone on the dole doesn't have money for luxuries.

    No, but there are jobs available to apply for. If the people aren't good enough for the jobs, then sorry, but that's not the governmen't fault really. The immigrants thing is a red herring. Try coming back when there are NO vacancies in jobcentres.

    Do what most people do and improve yourself so you are qualified for a decent job then.

    They are recruiting at the place I used to work actually. Putting stuff in boxes, even an idiot could do it. £6 per hour.
    And I'd gladly take one of those jobs if it didn't require five years of commercial experience in emptying bins or whatever other retarded things they put in job descriptions these days.

    Again, you completely fail at basic maths. I'm surprised you have a job at all when you can't do simple addition and subtraction. It doesn't matter how good you are, if there's not enough jobs for you to get one then you're not getting a job. Do you honestly believe 80% of unemployed people are thick chavs who have no intention of getting a job?

    I can almost guarantee that there will be at least a million who are smarter with more experience than you or I. They have the advantage over any graduate and at every job interview I've had they have been the ones who got the job. **** working for nothing for three years like most graduates do to compete with these people, that's slave labour.

    And yes, an idiot may well be able to put things in boxes but if you don't have two years commercial experience of putting things in boxes your application will be going in the bin. That's just how it is. And fair enough, because they probably got 200+ people applying for it.

    I admit I was picky with what I applied for in the first few months after graduating but I quickly learnt that was bad. But it doesn't matter whether I apply for a minimum wage job or a £23k per year job, my rate of interviews is about the same. But right now I'm desperate to move out of my parents' place and that's impossible with a dole of £65 per week without struggling for every penny. **** that. If dole was £100 per week I'd be able to relocate somewhere like London or the northwest where most of the jobs are.
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    (Original post by marcusfox)
    I'm prepared to accept that maybe a miniscule proportion of those (in the order of a few 100s, maybe not even that) were born disabled or acquired a disability/illness or family issue, as you put it, before they reached working age. And that's proper disability, not pretend disability.

    Other than that, yes. They will all, almost without exception, be wasters.
    While I have no numbers, I think you hugely underestimate the number of people who are born disabled / develop conditions early in life.
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    (Original post by Sephiroth)
    Reading might not be your strong point, but I'm clearly blaming the government. Even the current government's changes to immigration fall way short of what it should be. I strongly believe all immigration should be stopped until we have jobs for them to take. While we cannot give a job to everyone currently living in this country there's no way any sane person would support bringing more people in.
    Even if you stopped all immigration you wouldn't be able to fill some jobs with British people. I had this conversation when signing people quite often:

    Customer: I'll take anything, I really want to work
    Me: Fair enough, here's one, toilet cleaner, full time, minimum wage
    Customer: Oh no, I can't do that, I don't want to clean

    No matter what you may think, there are certain jobs that some people just won't take because they see it as beneath them. Those are the vital jobs that immigrants take because they aren't afraid of doing a job like that.
 
 
 
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