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    (Original post by WelshBluebird)
    While I have no numbers, I think you hugely underestimate the number of people who are born disabled / develop conditions early in life.
    I'm sure there are a number of people born disabled or develop conditions in life. How many of those are in families where NO ONE has EVER worked?.

    It's going to be in the hundreds or low thousands. Certainly not more than 1 or 2%.

    By the way, since we were discussing this earlier, and you made a big deal that "In some areas the amount of successful appeals on disability decisions was 70%"

    You'll therefore be interested to know that the recent pilot study tested in Burnley and Aberdeen - going nationwide tomorrow - of 1,626 Incapacity Benefit claimants - found that 32% were able to return to work immediately - that's after the appeal, and 38% capable of returning to work with the right support.

    So if the same is found across the country, then that's 500,000 who will be off incapacity benefit and onto JSA right away.
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    (Original post by WelshBluebird)
    While I have no numbers, I think you hugely underestimate the number of people who are born disabled / develop conditions early in life.
    I'm sure there are a number of people born disabled or develop conditions in life. How many of those are in families where NO ONE has EVER worked?.

    It's going to be in the hundreds or low thousands. Certainly not more than 1 or 2%.

    By the way, since we were discussing this earlier, and you made a big deal that "In some areas the amount of successful appeals on disability decisions was 70%"

    You'll therefore be interested to know that the recent pilot study tested in Burnley and Aberdeen - going nationwide tomorrow - of 1,626 Incapacity Benefit claimants - found that 32% were able to return to work immediately - that's after the appeal, and 38% capable of returning to work with the right support.

    So if the same is found across the country, then that's 500,000 who will be off IB and onto JSA right away.
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    (Original post by marcusfox)
    By the way, since we were discussing this earlier, and you made a big deal that "In some areas the amount of successful appeals on disability decisions was 70%"

    You'll therefore be interested to know that the recent pilot study tested in Burnley and Aberdeen - going nationwide tomorrow - of 1,626 Incapacity Benefit claimants - found that 32% were able to return to work immediately - that's after the appeal, and 38% capable of returning to work with the right support.
    Which means that the vast majority of claimants are legitimate.

    I agree that something does need to be done about the people who are claiming it that shouldn't be, but I just don't think the current way (which was actually introduced by Labour - just to prove I'm not just being party political) is the right way to do it.
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    (Original post by Sephiroth)
    Reading might not be your strong point, but I'm clearly blaming the government. Even the current government's changes to immigration fall way short of what it should be. I strongly believe all immigration should be stopped until we have jobs for them to take. While we cannot give a job to everyone currently living in this country there's no way any sane person would support bringing more people in.
    If there were no jobs available to apply for, I would agree with you. While the number of unemployed may exceed the number of vacancies available, there are vacancies available, i.e. jobs for people to take, so your argument falls flat.

    (Original post by Sephiroth)
    And I'd gladly take one of those jobs if it didn't require five years of commercial experience in emptying bins or whatever other retarded things they put in job descriptions these days.
    The one I mentioned, doesn't.

    (Original post by Sephiroth)
    Again, you completely fail at basic maths. I'm surprised you have a job at all when you can't do simple addition and subtraction. It doesn't matter how good you are, if there's not enough jobs for you to get one then you're not getting a job. Do you honestly believe 80% of unemployed people are thick chavs who have no intention of getting a job?
    What basic maths have I failed at? £67.50 x 52 is £3,510. Housing benefit is going to be whatever your rent is, but likely to be that again. Council tax benefit varies, but at most is going to be £1000. Less if you're living in a shared house, but it's irrelevant since the government covers whatever figure it is, but if you have to pay £1000 council tax, they will cover it.

    This adds up to £8020, (which is around £8000 and divided by 52 is around £153 per week)

    Where did you pull your 80% figure from? I don't remember saying this at all

    (Original post by Sephiroth)
    I can almost guarantee that there will be at least a million who are smarter with more experience than you or I. They have the advantage over any graduate and at every job interview I've had they have been the ones who got the job. **** working for nothing for three years like most graduates do to compete with these people, that's slave labour.
    And this should be news to who exactly? There will always be people who are better at something than others. It's called life.

    The last sentence - well, the average graduate has higher wages compared to the average non graduate. Of course there will be exceptions.

    (Original post by Sephiroth)
    And yes, an idiot may well be able to put things in boxes but if you don't have two years commercial experience of putting things in boxes your application will be going in the bin. That's just how it is. And fair enough, because they probably got 200+ people applying for it.
    Don't need any experience. They always have new people starting and are looking for more.

    (Original post by Sephiroth)
    I admit I was picky with what I applied for in the first few months after graduating but I quickly learnt that was bad. But it doesn't matter whether I apply for a minimum wage job or a £23k per year job, my rate of interviews is about the same. But right now I'm desperate to move out of my parents' place and that's impossible with a dole of £65 per week without struggling for every penny. **** that. If dole was £100 per week I'd be able to relocate somewhere like London or the northwest where most of the jobs are.
    If you're living with your parents, then unless they are charging you "keep", i.e. rent and bills and food out of that £65 a week, you can be saving quite a bit. Even if they are, they should be reasonable enough to let you take a break and allow you to save something so you can afford to relocate. Even then, many employers will offer you a pay advance to help you out with this.
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    (Original post by WelshBluebird)
    Which means that the vast majority of claimants are legitimate.

    I agree that something does need to be done about the people who are claiming it that shouldn't be, but I just don't think the current way (which was actually introduced by Labour - just to prove I'm not just being party political) is the right way to do it.
    32% who were found to be swinging the lead is a massive proportion though, but of course the majority were going to be disabled.

    Indeed, you will find yesterday that I said this would be approximately the figure.

    In the end though, the majority will be off it, as the other 38% are going to have to find work, just not straight away, leaving us with just the 30%
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    (Original post by The-Real-One)
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2...efit-sanctions


    if you only give somebody £30 a week, they'd do better in prison, where at least they have a bed, central heating and food on the table every day.


    .



    According to what I've read, it's quite hard to get into prison these days.
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    (Original post by marcusfox)
    32% who were found to be swinging the lead is a massive proportion though,
    Although it makes a good tabloid headline, most aren't swinging the lead as normally understood. They have usually convinced themselves that because they are not in perfect health (or are not as fit as they were when they were younger), they can't possibly work.

    The two most common "incapacitating" conditions in the UK are back pain and depression. It isn't coincidental that the old PCAP test had inbuilt biases in favour of ...back pain and depression.
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    (Original post by nulli tertius)
    Although it makes a good tabloid headline, most aren't swinging the lead as normally understood. They have usually convinced themselves that because they are not in perfect health (or are not as fit as they were when they were younger), they can't possibly work.

    The two most common "incapacitating" conditions in the UK are back pain and depression. It isn't coincidental that the old PCAP test had inbuilt biases in favour of ...back pain and depression.
    Is it coincidental that these are two of the easiest conditions to fake?

    Of course there's the old headache, but that's only good for a day or so at most.
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    (Original post by marcusfox)
    Is it coincidental that these are two of the easiest conditions to fake?

    Of course there's the old headache, but that's only good for a day or so at most.
    To some degree both are fakeable but I don't actually think that is it.

    Do the old test yourself.

    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1.../schedule/made

    You need 15 points on the physical, 10 points on the mental health or 15 points if you combine them. You only count the higher of walking and stairs, but 6 points on the mental health counts as 9 if you have at least 3 physical points (i.e 6 physical + 6 mental health is a win). You count all the mental health points but only the highest physical points for an activity.

    I qualify. I think 90% of the population would qualify.
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    (Original post by marcusfox)
    Only what?

    Because you have no valid response to my points, to attack someone as pathetic is the last resort of someone who just lost the argument.



    Go on then, provide the name of the town, otherwise stop going on about it. You're just worried that when you do, you will look foolish as Martyn did when I showed him there were jobs available to apply for.

    I'm guessing Ayr. Ayr is about 2h30 from Edinburgh, even has a Haven holiday park. Only just under an hour into Glasgow Central and 75 minutes into Glasgow Queen Street though.

    Rather amusing that you should try to justify not having to look for jobs outside your town by only providing the time of the Edinburgh trip as an extreme example, but not mentioning that Glasgow is commutable, don't you think?

    I imagine the international airport at Prestwick is a major employer too.



    I said the majority of Polish people were hard working. You said that was a "massive generalisation", and then provided examples of a few Polish wasters.

    Taken in isolation without saying that I was generalising Polish workers as being hard working and you might have an argument, but otherwise, how else are people supposed to judge your statement apart from raging xenophobia?

    Never said that most British people were lazy. However, what I did say is that Poles were happy to take jobs that many British people [those on JSA] would rather stay on the dole than do.



    Sorry, but what is pathetic are all your excuses as to why you can't seem to comply with the extremely simple rules of JSA.

    It's plainly obvious that all the letters and paperwork and forms were designed so idiots could understand them, because the vast majority of people who are actually idiots are likely to be on JSA because they can't get jobs.
    Again yawn, making stuff up as usual it seems as at what point did I ever try and justify not commuting? Are you seeing more things that arent there or just finding an excuse to complain again? How is talking about bad experiences I had in the past with jobcentre me making excuses?

    You have ZERO proof of your ridiculous claim that Polish people are hard workers, I am not saying Polish workers arent but its silly to assume that there isnt at least a certain percentage that arent, just as its silly to think that the average British worker is lazy.

    You are just ripping things down into the simplest forms, so a Polish person doesnt complain about their conditions as much as a British worker, therefore they are harder workers? A British person is unhappy about pathetic wages that a Polish person is willing to accept somehow that means the Polish person is harder working? Thats basically what youare acting as if happens.

    Just because I dont lick the backside of the jobcentre why does that make it right to make stupid judgements?


    Also when did I say I wasnt applying for many jobs? When did I say I wasnt applying for employers out of my home town? In fact I mentioned a time when I had loads of forms at once and I didnt get a chance to hand one in on time and somehow you treat it like that makes me a bad person.
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    (Original post by drbluebox)
    Again yawn, making stuff up as usual it seems as at what point did I ever try and justify not commuting? Are you seeing more things that arent there or just finding an excuse to complain again? How is talking about bad experiences I had in the past with jobcentre me making excuses?
    Ah, so it is Ayr then. When I said "Why don't you commute to Edinburgh or Glasgow for work", you said:
    (Original post by drbluebox)
    So everyone in Scotland is on the outskirts of Glasgow or Edinburgh and only a short commute? If I wanted to go to Edinburgh its about a 2 and a half hour train journey for instance.
    deliberately failing to mention that Glasgow was less than an hour away on the train. I guess that qualifies as trying to justify not commuting, wouldn't you? It's plain to see.

    An Ayr to Glasgow New Deal 7 day Season is under £25. Minimum wage will give you a little less than £200 after tax, which even after your fare is going to be better than £65 a week. If it's not full time, then the jobcentre will sell you a day return for about £6-7, so you'll be in profit compared to your dole after a little more than three hours work.

    (Original post by drbluebox)
    You have ZERO proof of your ridiculous claim that Polish people are hard workers
    So, you clearly do believe that Polish people are slackers. Polish people come to this country to work, they come because the wages are higher. I don't have to prove something that doesn't suit your prejudices, because you'd just keep on that I was making it up.

    (Original post by drbluebox)
    I am not saying Polish workers arent but its silly to assume that there isnt at least a certain percentage that arent, just as its silly to think that the average British worker is lazy.
    You just said it above.:confused: I'm sure there will be a minority that aren't, true enough.

    (Original post by drbluebox)
    You are just ripping things down into the simplest forms, so a Polish person doesnt complain about their conditions as much as a British worker, therefore they are harder workers?
    Essentially yes, in a job such as vegetable packing, it is hard manual labour for relatively low wages, but above minimum wage, which studies have shown that British people don't like. Nevertheless, are you trying to say that someone should rather sit on their arse all day claiming JSA if they are able to get to a job where they are picking and packing vegetables in a field?

    Sure, people might say they want a job, but what they mean is they want a nice easy desk job sitting at a computer while they are earning £7-8 an hour. They'll put in for those vegetable packing jobs so they can mark them down as part of their jobsearch activity, but if someone comes up to them on the street and says, "how do you fancy a day packing vegetables", they'll say "no thanks."

    (Original post by drbluebox)
    A British person is unhappy about pathetic wages that a Polish person is willing to accept somehow that means the Polish person is harder working? Thats basically what youare acting as if happens.
    Nope. Of course I accept the concept that if nobody took a job because the going rate was too low, then the wages would go up. But if you are on JSA and you are offered work at minimum wage then your choice is to either take it, or sign off.

    But if Polish people want to work picking vegetables for minimum wage, then that is their choice, and yes it generally shows that they want the work more and work hard at it.

    (Original post by drbluebox)
    Just because I dont lick the backside of the jobcentre why does that make it right to make stupid judgements?
    It gives them every right. After all, you sign your claim to say that you will "lick the backside of the jobcentre" although in not such colourful language as you have put it.

    (Original post by drbluebox)
    Also when did I say I wasnt applying for many jobs? When did I say I wasnt applying for employers out of my home town? In fact I mentioned a time when I had loads of forms at once and I didnt get a chance to hand one in on time and somehow you treat it like that makes me a bad person.
    When you said

    (Original post by drbluebox)
    where I live now there might be 10 new jobs a week and 15 over a fortnight, however theres thousands of people unemployed in the town so how can you act as if there is jobs going? I am with an Agency right now who sent over 100 staff to a open day at local holiday park, and yet only 5 people got a job out of it!
    and not once throughout this thread when I have been re-iterating the need to commute if there are no jobs locally, have you ever said said that you were applying for jobs outside of your home town. In fact all you said to my response about commuting from your town was that Edinburgh was too far.

    They are fairly easy hoops that the jobcentre make you jump through, but all you have come up with are excuses why you can't comply with them, excuses why you can't apply for jobs, excuses why you can't commute. In fact, I'm not sure there are any excuses left. To be honest I doubt anyone here is surprised the jobcentre sanctioned you.
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    (Original post by gateshipone)
    Even if you stopped all immigration you wouldn't be able to fill some jobs with British people. I had this conversation when signing people quite often:

    Customer: I'll take anything, I really want to work
    Me: Fair enough, here's one, toilet cleaner, full time, minimum wage
    Customer: Oh no, I can't do that, I don't want to clean

    No matter what you may think, there are certain jobs that some people just won't take because they see it as beneath them. Those are the vital jobs that immigrants take because they aren't afraid of doing a job like that.
    You're either talking BS, or live in a posh area. I have a family member who is a cleaner at a school. He says they interview around ten people for every job that comes up, which suggests even more than that are applying. British people DO take cleaning jobs. Some people may find them beneath them but certainly not everyone.

    (Original post by marcusfox)
    If there were no jobs available to apply for, I would agree with you. While the number of unemployed may exceed the number of vacancies available, there are vacancies available, i.e. jobs for people to take, so your argument falls flat.

    The one I mentioned, doesn't.

    What basic maths have I failed at? £67.50 x 52 is £3,510. Housing benefit is going to be whatever your rent is, but likely to be that again. Council tax benefit varies, but at most is going to be £1000. Less if you're living in a shared house, but it's irrelevant since the government covers whatever figure it is, but if you have to pay £1000 council tax, they will cover it.

    This adds up to £8020, (which is around £8000 and divided by 52 is around £153 per week)

    Where did you pull your 80% figure from? I don't remember saying this at all

    And this should be news to who exactly? There will always be people who are better at something than others. It's called life.

    The last sentence - well, the average graduate has higher wages compared to the average non graduate. Of course there will be exceptions.

    Don't need any experience. They always have new people starting and are looking for more.

    If you're living with your parents, then unless they are charging you "keep", i.e. rent and bills and food out of that £65 a week, you can be saving quite a bit. Even if they are, they should be reasonable enough to let you take a break and allow you to save something so you can afford to relocate. Even then, many employers will offer you a pay advance to help you out with this.
    Do you have to keep breaking up your posts with quotes after each paragraph?

    We're not talking about people applying for jobs, we're talking about people getting jobs. And now that you finally accept that there are less job vacancies than unemployed people perhaps you can put two braincells together and figure out that perhaps yes, there is not a job for everyone and this will lead to longterm unemployment no matter what.

    The basic maths you failed at is not calculating income, it's calculating the number of jobs available. There is something like 2.7 million people unemployed and around 500k job vacancies. 2.7 million - 500k = 2.2 million people who aren't going to be getting a job even if every vacancies was filled. Right, new vacancies come up all the time. But there's a reason the number of unemployed continues to rise while new vacancies pop up and old ones are taken. People lose their jobs! I really don't know why this is such a difficult concept for you.

    80% comes from my estimate that 2.2 million is roughly 80% of 2.7 million, all of which you are claiming aren't good enough to get a job due to there not being enough vacancies. Newsflash! You could take the smartest million people on the planet but if there's only 500k vacancies you've got 500k of the smartest million unemployed for a long time.

    Grasp the concept! At least try.

    PS. Moving out isn't a problem. I saved up student loan money for that purpose during my degree. Actually surviving when I get there is the issue. Unless I'm earning a salary it's not going to happen. There's absolutely no reason why anyone should put themselves in a struggling position when they have supportive family.

    The main reason I believe JSA should provide comfortable living rather than basics is I am using money that will be coming from my future wages in tax towards the benefits system. Which is why I always LOL when people whine about their tax paying other people's benefits. So what! We'll be paying your benefits when we're working and you've lost your job.

    I'm not going to bother with this thread any more. You're beginning to bore me. You spend all day trolling this thread while the rest of us have better things to do like eat chips and watch TV all day. Or you know, actually looking for jobs? I don't know what kind of warped idea you have in your small mind of job seekers. More than likely you're some little teen with no experience of the real world.
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    (Original post by marcusfox)
    Ah, so it is Ayr then. When I said "Why don't you commute to Edinburgh or Glasgow for work", you said: deliberately failing to mention that Glasgow was less than an hour away on the train. I guess that qualifies as trying to justify not commuting, wouldn't you? It's plain to see.

    An Ayr to Glasgow New Deal 7 day Season is under £25. Minimum wage will give you a little less than £200 after tax, which even after your fare is going to be better than £65 a week. If it's not full time, then the jobcentre will sell you a day return for about £6-7, so you'll be in profit compared to your dole after a little more than three hours work.

    Eh? Another strange response from you. So because I dont say Glasgow is closer than Edinburgh I live in Ayr, and I am not mentioning where I live to try and justify not commuting? What planet do you live on as thats one of the strangest replies from you yet.

    No matter where I actually do live I have no real problems with commuting, at most uncomfortableness, if I get a job 15 miles away but have to get like 3 trains and take about a hour and a half to get there, whearas I could get a worse paid job 40 miles away and a hour on train direct I would take the worse paid job, I have no problems with that.


    I dont get the last part but dont know if thats because its late and I am tired, but how does 3 hours work at say £6 a hour plus £6 train fare(meaning I would have about £12 cash at that point) be higher than £65 a week or am I missing something?
    So, you clearly do believe that Polish people are slackers. Polish people come to this country to work, they come because the wages are higher. I don't have to prove something that doesn't suit your prejudices, because you'd just keep on that I was making it up.

    The problem with a reply like that is its taking basic ideas and then adding them togehter to make an assumption.

    Sure Polish people come here to work, I never denied that, I dont deny they come here because the wages are higher and they want a better life and why shouldnt they? I dont have a problem with immigration though you assume I do.
    I find it ridicolous the fact that you seem to think Polish people are hard working just because they are Polish, I dont find it ridicolous that Polish people are hard workers.

    Strange though that you seem to be picking and choosing things you want to "prove" so when its something you think you can get one over on me you are eager to "prove" your point, when its bringing up how you have a opinion on something and dont back it up you dont have to prove it, nice.



    You just said it above.:confused: I'm sure there will be a minority that aren't, true enough.

    See above


    Essentially yes, in a job such as vegetable packing, it is hard manual labour for relatively low wages, but above minimum wage, which studies have shown that British people don't like. Nevertheless, are you trying to say that someone should rather sit on their arse all day claiming JSA if they are able to get to a job where they are picking and packing vegetables in a field?

    When did I ever hint that I would agree with people sitting on their ass? If someone is too lazy to do a reasonable job then they should get sanctioned, just like it doesnt matter if someone on benefits used to be a high up IT person and found work cleaning pub toilets they should take it even if they knew they wouldnt be a very good cleaner. I dont know why you would think I would think otherwise.

    Sure, people might say they want a job, but what they mean is they want a nice easy desk job sitting at a computer while they are earning £7-8 an hour. They'll put in for those vegetable packing jobs so they can mark them down as part of their jobsearch activity, but if someone comes up to them on the street and says, "how do you fancy a day packing vegetables", they'll say "no thanks."

    Sure, as if the jobcentre found out they would get done for benefit fraud or have their benefit cut down by the amount earned and/or made to fill out loads of forms and likely sign off for a day, I have actually had an advisor tell me just before christmas not to apply for christmas work as it would mess up the benefits only been signed off short term but I said I wanted a Christmas job.


    Nope. Of course I accept the concept that if nobody took a job because the going rate was too low, then the wages would go up. But if you are on JSA and you are offered work at minimum wage then your choice is to either take it, or sign off.

    But if Polish people want to work picking vegetables for minimum wage, then that is their choice, and yes it generally shows that they want the work more and work hard at it.


    It gives them every right. After all, you sign your claim to say that you will "lick the backside of the jobcentre" although in not such colourful language as you have put it.



    When you said



    and not once throughout this thread when I have been re-iterating the need to commute if there are no jobs locally, have you ever said said that you were applying for jobs outside of your home town. In fact all you said to my response about commuting from your town was that Edinburgh was too far.

    And did I have to, just to please you? If so why? Its likely that if I did mention I lived closer to Glasgow you would of just made another comment about how I only lived X distance from it so should check there, but you seemed to do that anyway.

    Distance for me means less than ease of commute, if it was a 90 minute journey straight through which was 50 miles away then thats better than 90 minutes going 20 miles and changing trains 3 times


    They are fairly easy hoops that the jobcentre make you jump through, but all you have come up with are excuses why you can't comply with them, excuses why you can't apply for jobs, excuses why you can't commute. In fact, I'm not sure there are any excuses left. To be honest I doubt anyone here is surprised the jobcentre sanctioned you.
    Why are my responses "excuses"? because they challenge what you think is correct? Like I said earlier you dont know me and just seem to have made a judgement.

    The only views I have on a situation like that is if you have someone who would be inefficent at a job like say cleaning toilets but good at office work then it may be worse to push them into the cleaning job over someone far better

    To mix it with the Polish thing, if the Polish person was truly the better worker then I have no problem with them getting the position and to mix it even more lets say that there was 100 jobs available in a town for various positions, there was 100 A standard applicants, 100 B Standard and 100 C standard, I could understand the A standard ones getting the positions but that doesnt mean the B standard ones arent hard workers, just their skills arent as good so thats why they werent employed.

    And why do you think the hoops are easy? The DWP isnt this perfect place that never makes mistakes or runs with perfect efficency and not all claimants are idiots.

    And I am complying fine with the jobcentre rules thank you, its been almost 12 years since I left home and I have only mentioned a few things that have happened to me so assuming I signed on for a few periods of my life and have about half a dozen or less problems should mean I handle myself fine, or dont you think so?
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    (Original post by Sephiroth)
    You're either talking BS, or live in a posh area. I have a family member who is a cleaner at a school. He says they interview around ten people for every job that comes up, which suggests even more than that are applying. British people DO take cleaning jobs. Some people may find them beneath them but certainly not everyone.
    (Original post by Sephiroth)
    Do you have to keep breaking up your posts with quotes after each paragraph?
    Yes, it allows me to point out what's wrong with every one of your points in a clear and concise way.

    (Original post by Sephiroth)
    We're not talking about people applying for jobs, we're talking about people getting jobs. And now that you finally accept that there are less job vacancies than unemployed people perhaps you can put two braincells together and figure out that perhaps yes, there is not a job for everyone and this will lead to longterm unemployment no matter what.
    Yes, actually we are talking about people applying for jobs. The whole point this thread was started was because some people are either too stupid or too incompetent to claim JSA properly.

    Once you are on it it's very very simple. You do as the jobcentre tells you and you search for and apply for jobs. Regardless of whether or not there are more people unemployed than there are job vacancies. Honestly, I don't know what's so hard to understand about it.

    You seem to be of the completely misguided perception that because there are more unemployed people than there are job vacancies, that at some point, all these job vacancies will somehow be filled and then there won't be any jobs to apply for. Can't you see how deluded that point of view is? There will ALWAYS be job vacancies in the UK, just as there will ALWAYS be unemployed people in the UK. The day there isn't is the day the world ends.

    Since there are jobs available, all you have to do to keep on getting your JSA is to keep on applying for jobs. If you aren't the best candidate available, then better luck next time, but there are ways of improving yourself, such as further training and study. After all, that's why you went to university, wasn't it? To get a better job than you otherwise would have gotten with A-levels only?

    (Original post by Sephiroth)
    The basic maths you failed at is not calculating income, it's calculating the number of jobs available. There is something like 2.7 million people unemployed and around 500k job vacancies. 2.7 million - 500k = 2.2 million people who aren't going to be getting a job even if every vacancies was filled. Right, new vacancies come up all the time. But there's a reason the number of unemployed continues to rise while new vacancies pop up and old ones are taken. People lose their jobs! I really don't know why this is such a difficult concept for you.
    When all these jobs are filled, you'll have a point. But if there are vacancies to apply for, and there will always be vacancies to apply for, then you'll just have to make yourself the best candidate, or accept a job that's a little below your station. It is unfortunate for those who are unemployable due to no skills, a low IQ and an extensive criminal record, but those who are have always been at the bottom of the pile and pretty much guaranteed a life on the JSA.

    However, in the vast majority of cases, the only one responsible for these things is yourself. It's not like the third world where if you are unlucky, you're stuck in poverty with nothing. In the UK we have a free second level education system and an excellent third level system which is practically free, you only have to pay for it when you're earning. Your education is pretty much up to you, if you want it you can have it. Same with a criminal record.

    (Original post by Sephiroth)
    80% comes from my estimate that 2.2 million is roughly 80% of 2.7 million, all of which you are claiming aren't good enough to get a job due to there not being enough vacancies. Newsflash! You could take the smartest million people on the planet but if there's only 500k vacancies you've got 500k of the smartest million unemployed for a long time.
    Once again, there will always be job vacancies available. You won't ever fill them all.

    (Original post by Sephiroth)
    Grasp the concept! At least try.
    What, you mean the concept that there will always be job vacancies? Better than what you said above, 1 million unemployed people and 500k vacancies is not ever in a million years going to equal 500k employed people, 500k unemployed people and no job vacancies.

    (Original post by Sephiroth)
    PS. Moving out isn't a problem. I saved up student loan money for that purpose during my degree. Actually surviving when I get there is the issue. Unless I'm earning a salary it's not going to happen. There's absolutely no reason why anyone should put themselves in a struggling position when they have supportive family.
    So then its simple. Nothing stopping you applying for jobs in London or Manchester. There are shedloads for graduates. Say you are going to relocate. Then, when you get the job, move. You don't move before you get the job, that's the arse backwards method.

    (Original post by Sephiroth)
    The main reason I believe JSA should provide comfortable living rather than basics is I am using money that will be coming from my future wages in tax towards the benefits system. Which is why I always LOL when people whine about their tax paying other people's benefits. So what! We'll be paying your benefits when we're working and you've lost your job.
    Nope, the view as supported by the taxpaying majority is that if you give people free money for what is essentially sitting on your arse, then it needs to be the minimum available to live. No opportunities for luxury. Then there is an incentive to get off that arse, and if you want those luxuries to make sacrifices.

    If I was being given free money that enabled a comfortable living for essentially doing absolutely nothing, why would I ever get off my arse?

    That's why there is so much uproar when people are made aware of others playing the system - you know, the couples with 11 kids, two houses joined together, etc etc - don't work, funded entirely by taxpayers, often earning benefits to the amount that only a hard working person could only dream of.

    (Original post by Sephiroth)
    I'm not going to bother with this thread any more. You're beginning to bore me. You spend all day trolling this thread while the rest of us have better things to do like eat chips and watch TV all day. Or you know, actually looking for jobs? I don't know what kind of warped idea you have in your small mind of job seekers. More than likely you're some little teen with no experience of the real world.
    Up to you, do as you like. But you have no idea as to my life, and it doesn't concern you. The irrelevent ad hominem personal attacks amuse me, but only serve to demonstrate that you're struggling to find a real argument.

    Your attitude, and those of several others here gives a great insight to your perception of some sort of unearned entitlement to something, and does you a great disservice if you are trying to put across the point of the unemployed as one that the majority of people will sympathise with.
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    (Original post by Sephiroth)
    You're either talking BS, or live in a posh area. I have a family member who is a cleaner at a school. He says they interview around ten people for every job that comes up, which suggests even more than that are applying. British people DO take cleaning jobs. Some people may find them beneath them but certainly not everyone.
    Nah, my area is the complete opposite of posh and trust me, that isn't BS. I did have that conversation quite often.

    I never said that no Brits take cleaning jobs, what I said was there are some jobs that some Brits won't do no matter how much they want a job. I never once say everyone would turn that kind of job down.
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    Dole money!! Nice concept, snag is, there are many on some sort of benefit, who are able to work and just don't bother! Even worse, they ARE working and they are claiming benefits!!!

    Take me for an example, after all, I have nowt to hide!

    Am 39 years old, almost 40, spent most of my time either on benefits because of health reasons, so when I am able to do something, I go and do a training course / back to work course.

    Now for 5 years I was getting DLA at lower rate due to mental health issues, but then I took on a part time job to try it out! FAILED! Had a damned breakdown, kept making mistakes, double orders stuff like that! So i go away, back to the doc's (medical and psychiatric) and back to the dole office, here is the kicker! DLA was canceled cause of the part time job!!!

    Now, when I was working part time, I was still entitled to my DLA, that with the working tax credits that you can get made things about right. But as soon as I lost my job cause of mental health (severe clinical depression) I lose my DLA!!

    That was almost 4 years past, every appeal I put in came back the same way, your able to work, so go work!

    For the last 4 years, I have been thru the mill in regards to the hassel the jobcentre folks can give you, forced onto a back to work course when I was still under treatment for depression, decided to redo my HSE First Aid to make my cv shine better. But now its forcing you to take any work at all, without the chance of using the back to work assistance that comes in very handy.

    WorkTrials! An oppertunity for employers to try a person out for size, lasts for 4 weeks but can be extended if required!

    Now if they are pulling funding for items like that, then long term unemployed folks have had it, might as well just do a national service program or even workhouses!

    As for the poster in regards to the poles (am gonna assume you mean the Polish people) We have here in aberdeen a LOT of these folks around, and the one thing I see a lot of is them going out to their jobs, all smartly dressed and polite, doing whatever job they can get thier hands on. They will do the minimum wage jobs, and are happy to do it. What I do not see is them walking about the jobcentre with thier mates, trying to bum **** off of folks and thinking up the next excuse for not having done thier job search or kept a record of it.

    Sorry for the long type up, but I am fed up with people using the immigration as an excuse for them being unemployed, when the real reason they are unemployed is they wont do the minimum wage jobs that are available to them. They would rather just trick the system into paying them. Am so glad they finally got onto you!
 
 
 
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