Discrimination against public schools Watch

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Mysticmin
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#121
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#121
I'm inclined to argue that the kids should choose where they'd be happier. The problem is the kid probably doesn't know till they're about 14.
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Hoofbeat
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#122
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(Original post by fishpaste)
I did write a big reply involving lots of metaphorical 'sides of the fence' and 'levels of existance.' But it got a bit ridiculous so I abandoned it.

Put simply, I think if you want to limit yourself to the world of private education, and not expose yourself to or acknowledge 90% of the population, then that's fine. Though it's probably in your interest to consciously diversify your interests beyond your UCAS application and knowledge of Monty Pyton. It doesn't seem to be a problem for those in the state sector, they are naturally exposed to all sorts of different ideas, and attitudes, and interests, and they still get to enjoy the academic world if they're bright.
You seem to think that all private school children lead boring lives where they discuss achievements and unviersity applications! Haha, you are so wrong. Instead we are encouraged to take part in discussions on a much broader base and generally we have better communications skills because of it. We are taught MANNERS! My friends at state schools tell me how people in their class throw chairs at teachers and they don't learn from their mistakes - wohoo they get detention - but it doesn't stop them does it?) but at my school we are disciplined through learning respect (not through fear/punishment) for others, which most other state schools do not encourage. So we are not isolated individuals. Instead we have broad knowledge and know how to apply it to real-life situations. If that means that we are more favourable to univerisities and future employers than state-educated pupils, then so be it! Often we do twice as much work and then reap better rewards.

You cannot for one minute demand that everyone is state-educated, when if parents with sufficient funds chose their childrne to be educated privately.

I suppose you're going to say now that its wrong to have Private Health Care too?!
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Hoofbeat
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#123
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(Original post by fishpaste)
My statement about people only being interested in UCAS forms was an exaggeration I admit, and bound to cause controversey. It was merely a shortcut to sayng that there seems to be a certain culture in these establishments, a culture which also makes an appearance on these boards, this culture is not necessarily bad but it quickly consumes the lifestyles of said people, hence my wider conclusion that you end up limited.
Maybe it appears on these boards as they are designed for education purposes and UCAS applications?!
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Leekey
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#124
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(Original post by Hoofbeat)
You seem to think that all private school children lead boring lives where they discuss achievements and unviersity applications! Haha, you are so wrong. Instead we are encouraged to take part in discussions on a much broader base and generally we have better communications skills because of it. We are taught MANNERS! My friends at state schools tell me how people in their class throw chairs at teachers and they don't learn from their mistakes - wohoo they get detention - but it doesn't stop them does it?) but at my school we are disciplined through learning respect (not through fear/punishment) for others, which most other state schools do not encourage. So we are not isolated individuals. Instead we have broad knowledge and know how to apply it to real-life situations. If that means that we are more favourable to univerisities and future employers than state-educated pupils, then so be it! Often we do twice as much work and then reap better rewards.

Does any other state educated person feel that the above is a complete generalization? I take offense that you have insinuated that a key difference between state educated individuals and those who were privately educated is "manners". I assure you that I was taught manners and I would suggest that you should consider your own before you post another statement like the one above. I also take offense to the suggestion that those who attend fee paying schools have "broad knowledge and know how to apply it", I will assure you that many people attending state school have this broad knowledge and also know how to apply it. I have chosen to ignore the last sentence of your post because...well...just read it to yourself and you will (hopefully) understand that your education type has absolutely nothing to do with how hard you work (surely that is an individual thing).

I have nothing against private education and actually believe that it does play a role in the education of the youth of tommorow. What I totally disagree with is the idea that this education produces "better" people, which is the impression that I got when reading your post.
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username9816
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#125
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(Original post by jamierwilliams)
i am getting quite concerned about the amount of hatred towards public schools on this forum (i know not everybody but there seem quite a few). i do not have a problem at all with public schools. the only difference, generally, is better facilities in private schools(funded by the parents who pay). there are many public schools which are not as strong academically as state schools. so, i dont really know why, other than a hint of jealousy that people are so against the 'public school thing'.

Also, public schools are, by no means, for people with rich parents, everybody has the chance to go to a public school with bursaries and scholarships if they are clever enough.

so....what is at all wrong with public schools (admittedly, some public schools produce rather stuck up students but generally are just the same as most other schools)?

i rest my case
I'm not bloody surprised.

Your families are loaded, you go to schools with superb facilities, superb teaching, smaller class sizes, better links with top universities etc. In addition to the "daddy giving oxbridge admissions tutor lots of money so I can go there" crap.

And don't say that doesn't/hasn't happened, because it does.
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Mysticmin
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#126
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(Original post by bono)
I'm not bloody surprised.

Your families are loaded, you go to schools with superb facilities, superb teaching, smaller class sizes, better links with top universities etc. In addition to the "daddy giving oxbridge admissions tutor lots of money so I can go there" crap.

And don't say that doesn't/hasn't happened, because it does.
Not a blantent generalisation there by any chance :rolleyes:
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Leekey
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#127
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(Original post by bono)
I'm not bloody surprised.

Your families are loaded, you go to schools with superb facilities, superb teaching, smaller class sizes, better links with top universities etc. In addition to the "daddy giving oxbridge admissions tutor lots of money so I can go there" crap.

And don't say that doesn't/hasn't happened, because it does.
Nope....can't really agree with much of that at all....
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paymaster
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#128
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(Original post by Leekey)
Does any other state educated person feel that the above is a complete generalization? I take offense that you have insinuated that a key difference between state educated individuals and those who were privately educated is "manners". I assure you that I was taught manners and I would suggest that you should consider your own before you post another statement like the one above. I also take offense to the suggestion that those who attend fee paying schools have "broad knowledge and know how to apply it", I will assure you that many people attending state school have this broad knowledge and also know how to apply it. I have chosen to ignore the last sentence of your post because...well...just read it to yourself and you will (hopefully) understand that your education type has absolutely nothing to do with how hard you work (surely that is an individual thing).

I have nothing against private education and actually believe that it does play a role in the education of the youth of tommorow. What I totally disagree with is the idea that this education produces "better" people, which is the impression that I got when reading your post.
I would take offence at what has been said, but my inferior communication skills will obviously lead to a confused response. I have manners, and frequently go through a whole day without throwing a chair at someone.

A lot of answers on these boards are based on generalisations, which are often wrong in crucial areas. My feeling, as a state educated pupil, is that I'd rather have the wrong generalisation about the 10% of people who go to private schools than the 90% who don't.

If universities prefer private school pupils, why do they also complain of a state-school bias? Many of the private school people at my cambridge interview decided I'd get in because of the fact I go to a state school. Apparently that's all I am to them - a product of state education, as opposed to an individual.

I am offended by the idea we lack manners. Sure, I don't stand up when ladies enter the room. When talking to my friends, I may even use a four-letter word! But the idea that we are all completely lacking in manners is insulting to myself, and to my parents (who surely have as much influence on your manners as your school?).
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Leekey
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#129
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(Original post by paymaster)

If universities prefer private school pupils, why do they also complain of a state-school bias? Many of the private school people at my cambridge interview decided I'd get in because of the fact I go to a state school. Apparently that's all I am to them - a product of state education, as opposed to an individual.

This is the kind of institutionalised snobbery that having seperate education breeds on both sides of the divide. The informed and educated person would see the individual, unfortuntely the supposedly "well educated" people can only see someone that is different and therefore worse than themselves. This scenario works in exactly the same way that the one about people at comprehensives being bullied for being bright does (i.e. different is bad). The problem for comprehensive students is that to get anywhere in life, they must usually attempt to bridge the gap (i.e. gain acceptance) and this is usually incredibly difficult due to the inbuilt social snobbery of the "well educated" peoples.
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Mysticmin
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(Original post by Leekey)
This is the kind of institutionalised snobbery that having seperate education breeds on both sides of the divide. The informed and educated person would see the individual, unfortuntely the supposedly "well educated" people can only see someone that is different and therefore worse than themselves. This scenario works in exactly the same way that the one about people at comprehensives being bullied for being bright does (i.e. different is bad). The problem for comprehensive students is that to get anywhere in life, they must usually attempt to bridge the gap (i.e. gain acceptance) and this is usually incredibly difficult due to the inbuilt social snobbery of the "well educated" peoples.
Yeah unfortunately you're right there. I have to admit some of the people I know (incidentally not at my school, a different public school) are incredibally biased against state school people.

I asked them they could be so biased despite never knowing anyone from a state school. They just shrugged, that kind of behaviour is just as annoying as people making presumptions about public school students.
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paymaster
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#131
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The ideas that keep coming up here are equality vs choice.

Now, although I'd love equality (well, my airy-fairy lefty side sometimes thinks this would be nice) I recognise that in a capitalist society such as this that this is not possible.

Many privately educated people argue this is their choice. This argument is reliant on the possibility of those who cannot afford it being able to gain scholarships, otherwise there is a denial of choice. I don't know how hard it is to gain a scholarship, I've never tried.

My choice is a state school, and all I ask is that is respected. I don't want to be condemned as ill-mannered or to be disadvantaged professionally when older. As I'm sure those from private schools don't want to feel they will be bullied.
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Leekey
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#132
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(Original post by Mysticmin)

I asked them they could be so biased despite never knowing anyone from a state school. They just shrugged, that kind of behaviour is just as annoying as people making presumptions about public school students.
The two-way "elitism" is why the system causes more problems than it solves. I would hope that when we are talking about two supposedly intelligent sets of people, both could see how pathetic and inaccurate thier preconceptions are, unfortunately it seems that human nature is too strong for many (or they have not bother to acquire social graces during thier education).
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Mysticmin
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(Original post by paymaster)
The ideas that keep coming up here are equality vs choice.

Now, although I'd love equality (well, my airy-fairy lefty side sometimes thinks this would be nice) I recognise that in a capitalist society such as this that this is not possible.

Many privately educated people argue this is their choice. This argument is reliant on the possibility of those who cannot afford it being able to gain scholarships, otherwise there is a denial of choice. I don't know how hard it is to gain a scholarship, I've never tried.

My choice is a state school, and all I ask is that is respected. I don't want to be condemned as ill-mannered or to be disadvantaged professionally when older. As I'm sure those from private schools don't want to feel they will be bullied.
Hmm, not that hard to get a scholarship...come on, I got one. Of course you're not ill mannered, or at least your messages don't imply that you are
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Leekey
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#134
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(Original post by paymaster)
My choice is a state school, and all I ask is that is respected. I don't want to be condemned as ill-mannered or to be disadvantaged professionally when older. As I'm sure those from private schools don't want to feel they will be bullied.
This is all anyone should be allowed, unfortunately it is a right that many are denied.
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Hoofbeat
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#135
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(Original post by bono)
I'm not bloody surprised.

Your families are loaded, you go to schools with superb facilities, superb teaching, smaller class sizes, better links with top universities etc. In addition to the "daddy giving oxbridge admissions tutor lots of money so I can go there" crap.

And don't say that doesn't/hasn't happened, because it does.
If you had read some of my other replies to previous posts on this matter you would have seen that my parents are not that well off, especially in comparision to most of the peopl at private schools. My dad left school with no real qualifications and became a TV engineer before working damn ahrd to prove himself and start his own business.

I still believe that Private schools are better for teaching students an all round education and no matter what you say IN GENERAL there students are more likely to be successful later on in life. If people chose to spend their money that way, then that is their own perogative and they should not be criticised as they have been on this forum.
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Leekey
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(Original post by Hoofbeat)
Private schools are better for teaching students an all round education and no matter what you say IN GENERAL there students are more likely to be successful later on in life.
I personally would not describe a private education as "an all round education" because it to some extent will always be sheltered. Admittely the material will be of a higher level because of the fact that everyone who is there, is paying to be there as therefore will want the best from thier time there. However the lack of varied social experience can surely not lead to a well rounded education in the broader sense of the phrase. The same can be argued for state education which will inhibit the interaction with those of a "higher social standing". I really don't think it is accurate to describe either as providing an all round education.

I think that the point several people were trying to make is that the actual education is on only a small factor in the correlation between private education and career success. The kind of attitude that can be instilled during private education could be said to be responsible for having a detrimental effect on the progress of other individuals (getting back to the "dislike them for being different" argument here ).
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house badger
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(Original post by Hoofbeat)
If people chose to spend their money that way, then that is their own perogative and they should not be criticised as they have been on this forum.
Might it not be fair to criticise the system in this country where rich parents can buy their children an advantage? It might be good for free choice but is it not socially divisive to allow only a small section of society such great benefits as you talk of.

Also, although I do not doubt how hard your parents have worked to get into their financial situation, aren't their many other people who have worked very hard but haven't had such good fortune and being so financially successful. I don't see how it is fair to penalise the children of these people.
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fishpaste
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(Original post by Hoofbeat)
You seem to think that all private school children lead boring lives where they discuss achievements and unviersity applications! Haha, you are so wrong. Instead we are encouraged to take part in discussions on a much broader base and generally we have better communications skills because of it. We are taught MANNERS! My friends at state schools tell me how people in their class throw chairs at teachers and they don't learn from their mistakes - wohoo they get detention - but it doesn't stop them does it?) but at my school we are disciplined through learning respect (not through fear/punishment) for others, which most other state schools do not encourage. So we are not isolated individuals. Instead we have broad knowledge and know how to apply it to real-life situations. If that means that we are more favourable to univerisities and future employers than state-educated pupils, then so be it! Often we do twice as much work and then reap better rewards.

You cannot for one minute demand that everyone is state-educated, when if parents with sufficient funds chose their childrne to be educated privately.

I suppose you're going to say now that its wrong to have Private Health Care too?!
Oh my god what did you read in the post you quoted? I said pretty much nothing you accused me of. I have argued those things at other times, but not right now. Everything you just said is irrelevant, because my argument was that culture in private schools means you are limited in the type of people you are exposed to. The fact that you would meet somebody likely to throw a chair at the teacher in a state is exactly what I'm arguing to be true. You're essentially agreeing with me that you don't find that variation in the private sector, because the range of people are limited. I said this was a bad thing, because 90% of people are in state schools where people throw chairs at each other, and so it's valuable to be able to coexist with that entire group of people. Not just be limited to the ~10% of people who are in the private sector.
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fishpaste
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(Original post by Hoofbeat)
Maybe it appears on these boards as they are designed for education purposes and UCAS applications?!
Yup, acknowledged.
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fishpaste
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#140
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(Original post by house badger)
Might it not be fair to criticise the system in this country where rich parents can buy their children an advantage? It might be good for free choice but is it not socially divisive to allow only a small section of society such great benefits as you talk of.

Also, although I do not doubt how hard your parents have worked to get into their financial situation, aren't their many other people who have worked very hard but haven't had such good fortune and being so financially successful. I don't see how it is fair to penalise the children of these people.
It really *pains* me to get into this argument again, and I might just levae the computer after I hit submit. As you said it might be the case that said parents have been unlucky even though they worked very hard. But more to the point, last time I checked I exist within myself, I am not just an extension of my parents, and I don't see when the competition is essentially between me and another child, the parents' willingness and ability to pay should come into it.
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