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Afghanistan: Deadly Kandahar protest at Koran burning Watch

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    (Original post by Wucker)
    This shouldn't surprise anybody, after the riots, protests, and killings following the cartoons of Muhammad a few years back. Even in the UK, vast majorities of Muslims feel that people should be punished for speaking their mind about Islam (ie, committing "blasphemy"). The Florida pastor is a nutcase as well, but that doesn't even begin to excuse this.
    The recent protest which was sparked today is not only in opposition to the Q'uran burning but it's more to do with the revelation that an 11 man US kill Squad hunted Afghan civillians for sport and cut off their body parts for trophies. The picture below shows one of the soldiers taking a photograph of himself with the young boy.


    US soldier smirks while holding the body of a dead Afghan boy

    Source

    Source for the picture itself

    NB: This does not justify the attacks on innocent UN staff who do alot of good work in Afghanistan.
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    (Original post by B-Man.)
    The recent protest which was sparked today is not only in opposition to the Q'uran burning but it's more to do with the revelation that an 11 man US kill Squad hunted Afghan civillians for sport and cut off their body parts for trophies. The picture below shows one of the soldiers taking a photograph of himself with the young boy.


    US soldier smirks while holding the body of a dead Afghan boy

    Source

    Source for the picture itself

    NB: This does not justify the attacks on innocent UN staff who do alot of good work in Afghanistan.
    As an American, this type of stuff (including as the Wikileaks chopper incident, Abu Ghraib etc) absolutely disgusts me. It obscures the hard work and bravery of the vast majority of other soldiers, and leads to a focus on the horrible acts of a few. Now, one might contend that the same could be said for Islam, in that there is a focus on the horrible acts of a few terrorists, while the beliefs and actions of the majority are ignored. This is, in a sense, true, and I think that we should focus on the mainstream message, ideology, and actions of a group, whether it is the military of the United States of the religion of Islam.

    Sadly, looking at both, you find many flaws. The military, however, does have a necessary, though, unfortunate, purpose. Religion, on the other hand, is pointlessly harmful. This is particularly true of Islam, as, unlike Western Christianity, it has not yet been secularized by modern society. The beliefs and actions of mainstream Islam worldwide (such as the widespread support of laws against blasphemy, and the inherent sexism and arbitrary brutality of sharia law) are what leads me to criticize it.
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    (Original post by Wucker)

    Sadly, looking at both, you find many flaws. The military, however, does have a necessary, though, unfortunate, purpose. Religion, on the other hand, is pointlessly harmful. This is particularly true of Islam, as, unlike Western Christianity, it has not yet been secularized by modern society. The beliefs and actions of mainstream Islam worldwide (such as the widespread support of laws against blasphemy, and the inherent sexism and arbitrary brutality of sharia law) are what leads me to criticize it.
    I don't know why you have drawn up this paragraph as it is entirely irrelevant to the point I was making. Anyway let me address what have you said. Your right, the US military does have a purpose and that purpose is to impose America's hegemony via imperialism to support it's polticial interests in the middle east and South Asian region. In your second point you are comparing Islam worldwide to Western Christianity - which is the basis of an unfair analysis. If you want to compare Islam with Christianity then you must also include Christianity in Central Africa or only compare Western Islam with Western Christianity.
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    (Original post by B-Man.)
    I don't know why you have drawn up this paragraph as it is entirely irrelevant to the point I was making. Anyway let me address what have you said. Your right, the military does have a purpose and that purpose is to impose America's hegemony via imperialism to support it's polticial interests in the middle east and South Asian region. In your second point you are comparing Islam worldwide to Western Christianity - which is the basis of an unfair analysis. If you want to compare Islam with Christianity then you must also include Christianity in Central Africa or only compare Western Islam with Western Christianity.
    You make some very important points. Firstly, I meant the definitional purpose of a military, to defend the country - you can argue in support of the military as an institution while at the same time criticizing its actions. Secondly, I do indeed think that making that regional distinction is important. Anyone who is familiar with African Christianity knows that it is quite fundamental. It is in the difference between Western Christianity and Western Islam, however, that the issue becomes quite apparent. Islam in the United Kingdom, for example, is much more conservative that Christianity in the United Kingdom. Just look at any opinion poll on the matter (http://www.channel4.com/news/article...77/545847.html, take a look at the whole survey, pretty scary stuff).
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    (Original post by Wucker)
    You make some very important points. Firstly, I meant the definitional purpose of a military, to defend the country - you can argue in support of the military as an institution while at the same time criticizing its actions. Secondly, I do indeed think that making that regional distinction is important. Anyone who is familiar with African Christianity knows that it is quite fundamental. It is in the difference between Western Christianity and Western Islam, however, that the issue becomes quite apparent. Islam in the United Kingdom, for example, is much more conservative that Christianity in the United Kingdom. Just look at any opinion poll on the matter.
    It probably is much more conservative but the opposite could be said about Islam and Christianity in America. You will find mainstream American politicians and hopeful presidential candidates even expressing their desire to base the American legal system on the Bible and some even wishing to ban masterbation, adultery and abortion as these are considered sins.
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    (Original post by B-Man.)
    It probably is much more conservative but the opposite could be said about Islam and Christianity in America. You will find mainstream American politicians and hopeful presidential candidates even expressing their desire to base the American legal system on the Bible and some even wishing to ban masterbation, adultery and abortion as these are considered sins.
    I am very well versed in the nature of religion and politics in the United States, as I am a citizen and avid consumer of current events. The US suffers from the tyranny and ignorance of homegrown religious conservatism in the form of fundamentalist Christianity. Christianity in the United Kingdom is now largely toothless, but in your rapidly growing Muslim community there lies the potential for a return of the dogmatic dominance of religion.

    This deflection doesn't make the issues of the UK go away.
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    This is why the west has so much wealth; the middle east is full of retards stuck in pre-historic 'civilizations'.
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    (Original post by B-Man.)
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    There are 150,000 US soldiers out in Afghanistan. 11 men is hardly representative of the entire military force nor of any other UN troops.
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    (Original post by Wucker)
    I am very well versed in the nature of religion and politics in the United States, as I am a citizen and avid consumer of current events. The US suffers from the tyranny and ignorance of homegrown religious conservatism in the form of fundamentalist Christianity. Christianity in the United Kingdom is now largely toothless, but in your rapidly growing Muslim community there lies the potential for a return of the dogmatic dominance of religion.

    This deflection doesn't make the issues of the UK go away.
    Extremist Catholic groups still exist in Northern Ireland and this article represents it's current problem in regards to a recent car bombing by the I.R.A.
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    (Original post by Broderss)
    There are 150,000 US soldiers out in Afghanistan. 11 men is hardly representative of the entire military force nor of any other UN troops.
    I never claimed nor implied that it was. Re-read my post to see the purpose for me posting that article - it's not complicated.
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    (Original post by B-Man.)
    Extremist Catholic groups still exist in Northern Ireland and this article represents it's current problem in regards to a recent car bombing by the I.R.A.
    They are more motivated by nationalism (in the form of a United Ireland) than religion.

    Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/31/op...1.7331274.html

    Again, yet more deflection. Just because their remains the problem of the IRA, does not mean that the problems I have enumerated on do not exist.
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    (Original post by Wucker)
    They are more motivated by nationalism (in the form of a United Ireland) than religion.

    Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/31/op...1.7331274.html
    Most terrorists groups are focused upon political interests more than fundamentalism.

    (Original post by Wucker)
    Again, yet more deflection. Just because their remains the problem of the IRA, does not mean that the problems I have enumerated on do not exist.
    They exist but what do you want from me :dontknow:
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    (Original post by B-Man.)
    Most terrorists groups are focused upon political interests more than fundamentalism.



    They exist but what do you want from me :dontknow:

    I am glad you acknowledge the threat posed by the importation of reactionary and fundamentalist culture. I hope it leads you to be less forgiving of the ideology of Islam and the actions of its adherents.
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    (Original post by Wucker)
    I am glad you acknowledge the threat posed by the importation of reactionary and fundamentalist culture. I hope it leads you to be less forgiving of the ideology of Islam and the actions of its adherents.
    :lolwut: I never claimed that Islam was problematic. Also it's the religion of Islam not the ideology of Islam.
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    (Original post by B-Man.)
    :lolwut: I never claimed that Islam was problematic. Also it's the religion of Islam not the ideology of Islam.
    You misunderstand my statement, I am commenting, literally, on Islam's ideology, not saying that Islam is an ideology. In addition, do you not find fundamentalist religion to be problematic?
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    (Original post by harvie_316)
    there no need to kill them in the US or UK, when they are dropping bombs everyday in the middle east. Also your comment is way off, the only Christians being killed in the middle east are soldiers. You may get a very small % civilians be killed in the middle east, for reasons of only being white, but people get killed in the UK and US for being a different colour, but this is such a small monitory.

    Over here, over there its the same thing, we all are one, HUMAN, were not American, Indian, British, Iraqi, but HUMANS.
    what the hell are you talking about, in Egypt a Christian church was burnt by islamists recently, in Saudi it's forbbiden to wear any visible cross that symbolises christianity or you're persecuted. a nun was persecuted in early 90s for holding a prayer meeting with fellow Christians. In Iraq christian minorities are slowly being killed and tortured for not converting to Islam.

    You sir are an ignorant fool. Stop babbling rubbish and GTFO with your misleading statements.

    If the western militaries implored to their soldiers to murder or torture any 'enemy' or even a foreigner they met then why the hell would they court martial those who do it?

    So many dumbasses in this forum.
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    (Original post by Wucker)
    You misunderstand my statement, I am commenting, literally, on Islam's ideology, not saying that Islam is an ideology. In addition, do you not find fundamentalist religion to be problematic?
    Islam =/= Fundamentalist
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    (Original post by B-Man.)
    Islam =/= Fundamentalist
    Again, you misunderstand, I am asking whether or not you take issue with a fundamentalist interpretation of religion, any religion. It so happens that many Muslims in the United Kingdom are fundamentalists (i.e. they take the Koran literally), and this, in my opinion, is problematic. If you see fundamentalist religion as problematic, then you should see its prevalence among Muslims in the UK as problematic as well.
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    (Original post by Wucker)
    Again, you misunderstand, I am asking whether or not you take issue with a fundamentalist interpretation of religion, any religion. It so happens that many Muslims in the United Kingdom are fundamentalists (i.e. they take the Koran literally), and this, in my opinion, is problematic. If you see fundamentalist religion as problematic, then you should see its prevalence among Muslims in the UK as problematic as well.
    There are several factors you are not considering: the sect, interpretation and contextual analysis the individual Muslim takes. This would all influence whether or not taking the Q'uran as literal will be problematic. Also may I ask what porportion of the UK's Muslims are fundamentalists?
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    (Original post by B-Man.)
    There are several factors you are not considering: the sect, interpretation and contextual analysis the individual Muslim takes. This would all influence whether or not taking the Q'uran as literal will be problematic. Also may I ask what porportion of the UK's Muslims are fundamentalists?
    Fundamentalism in general is "a belief in a strict adherence to a set of basic principles." There are two main versions of the Koran, the Hafs and the Warsh, used by the overwhelming majority of all Muslims, and the differences are in the grammar not the content.

    So, various sects use basically the same text. They interpret it differently, but they all use a fundamental analysis in that they take what they see as the word of Allah (the Koran) literally.

    Finally, I would say it depends on how you define fundamentalists, but if you take a minute to look at the survey I provided you, and the many others that have been done in the UK, you will find some seriously worrying trends.

    For example, in addition to the fact mentioned above that 80% of UK Muslims support blasphemy laws, 40% want to implement total sharia law, and a third support killing in the name of Islam.

    Sources:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...haria-law.html

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...law-in-UK.html

    NOTE: Yes, the Daily Mail is a biased source but the poll itself was done by the Centre for Social Cohesion.
 
 
 
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